Illinois govenor wants to jack taxes

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if the people who believe that business taxes are consumer taxes also believe that government spending is consumer spending?

Where do businesses get their money from?

If you increase the taxes on businesses they don't have to pass the cost along to consumers, but normally they will.
Increases taxes on businesses is just a way to fool the people into thinking that their taxes aren't going up.
The ignorant people think 'yea tax the rich business owner' without ever realizing that they will pay the tax in the long run.

 

[DerekP]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DerekP
I have a question. In the two days I've been reading these forums, I've seen all kinds of taxes bashed. So is it the belief of everyone here that they've never seen a tax they've liked? The good old less government is better, and less funding is less government? Or is it just dislike of anything that comes out of your pocket? What would be a good method of the government gaining revenue to make up the current fiscal spreadsheet imbalances?

... ok more like 4 questions.

Right now nearly a third of all income in the US goes to some kind of tax.
Out of every dollar you make about 32 cents of it will end up in the hands of the government one way or another.

That means more of your money goes to taxes than to housing, food or transportation.

And yet some people think we need to send more money to the government?
Those of us on the right would rather see government cut back on its spending in order to balance its budgets, as opposed to raising taxes.

As for your second post

However, I also believe that there are things that the government needs to address that only the government can address, such as social programs that truly benefit everyone, with no strings of religion or affiliation attached. And this makes tax a necessary burden.

Do you know that the Department of Health and Human services is already the largest in the goverment? Over 600 billion last year, nearly a 100 billion more than the defense department.
How much more should we spend on these social programs?

I think we need to first see where all of this money is going. And herein lies the problem. Figuring it out is a complete mess.

100 Billion more than a peace-time DoD. For some reason, the budget for the DoD doesn't include money for actually using the military, so we have to throw another 300Bil/yr at it in our current wartime state.

 

[eleison]

I didn't vote for the fool.... maybe when people are paying over 50% taxes, they will finally vote for someone else..

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DerekP

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if the people who believe that business taxes are consumer taxes also believe that government spending is consumer spending?

How can a govt entity be considered consumer spending? Business taxes are consumer taxes because the taxes are often pushed along in the cost of the sale.

You raise taxes on McDonalds and who pays? People see their value meals raised by 5 cents.

This to me makes it rather obvious then where the money is flowing. Business is in the position to protect their profit no matter what, because they can just pass on the costs as they need to.

Yup, right into the hands of greedy politicians and special interest groups.

 

[DerekP]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: DerekP
I have a question. In the two days I've been reading these forums, I've seen all kinds of taxes bashed. So is it the belief of everyone here that they've never seen a tax they've liked? The good old less government is better, and less funding is less government? Or is it just dislike of anything that comes out of your pocket? What would be a good method of the government gaining revenue to make up the current fiscal spreadsheet imbalances?

... ok more like 4 questions.

1. Minimal taxes imo
2. More govt == oppression and corruption
3. Of course nobody liks somebody else digging into their pocket to pay for something they want. I would assume if I garnished your wages to pay for a new deck, you'd be fuming. So why do you think every pet project a politician claims he\she needs doesnt make people fume?
4. Reduce spending obviously.

Addressing 3, I tend to think of taxing more like everyone putting money up to build a swimming pool everyone can use. My problem with the current structure, is the swimming pool costs 3 times as much as it should, because the guy in charge of all the money is buying beer and whiskey for his buddies.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

By your logic, all we need to do is to raise taxes in Mississippi and Alabama and they'll have a much higher standard of living. Brilliant! :roll:

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DerekP

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: DerekP
I have a question. In the two days I've been reading these forums, I've seen all kinds of taxes bashed. So is it the belief of everyone here that they've never seen a tax they've liked? The good old less government is better, and less funding is less government? Or is it just dislike of anything that comes out of your pocket? What would be a good method of the government gaining revenue to make up the current fiscal spreadsheet imbalances?

... ok more like 4 questions.

1. Minimal taxes imo
2. More govt == oppression and corruption
3. Of course nobody liks somebody else digging into their pocket to pay for something they want. I would assume if I garnished your wages to pay for a new deck, you'd be fuming. So why do you think every pet project a politician claims he\she needs doesnt make people fume?
4. Reduce spending obviously.

Addressing 3, I tend to think of taxing more like everyone putting money up to build a swimming pool everyone can use. My problem with the current structure, is the swimming pool costs 3 times as much as it should, because the guy in charge of all the money is buying beer and whiskey for his buddies.

Right, but what if I dont want a swimming pool? Is a swimming pool something a govt should be building? That is the problem, govt is doing all sorts of things it shouldnt be getting into and I think it needs to cut back. As for the 3x cost, #2 sums of that issue well.

 

[DerekP]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, but what if I dont want a swimming pool? Is a swimming pool something a govt should be building? That is the problem, govt is doing all sorts of things it shouldnt be getting into and I think it needs to cut back. As for the 3x cost, #2 sums of that issue well.

Well in a standard democracy, I'd say elect someone who thinks like you do, and for a while that's how I saw the Democrat/Republican balance working. Democrats would spend, raise taxes, enact programs in the public good. Then it gets out of hand, the Republicans get voted in, cut taxes, cut programs, and the good ones have so much support they stay in place, while the bad ones or excessive ones are weeded out. Great oversimplification I know.

The past decade, you have a Democrat who balanced the budget and a Republican admin/congress who's abandoned all pretenses at fiscal conservatism.

I'm not quite sure where that leaves us, which is part of why I asked the questions I did.

One more question - what do you see the government doing that it shouldn't be involved in?

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

Yup,
more people in poverty than some neigboring states.
higher percentage not graduating high school than some neighboring states
higher unemployment than some neighboring states
life expentacy by state, many low tax states are much higher


oh, yeah, much better than other states with lower taxes. Too bad you don't look jack up ever.

No, you're the one that consistently makes things up to support your far right/fascist opinions.
We have been throught this numerous times. Direct correlation between taxation and all the quality of life standards I mentioned. Low tax states=low education, wages, health care, etc. High tax states=better education, health care, etc.
Don't try and LIE and claim something that has been GONE OVER A HUNDRED TIMES HERE IN THIS FORUM is the complete opposite of the truth.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

By your logic, all we need to do is to raise taxes in Mississippi and Alabama and they'll have a much higher standard of living. Brilliant! :roll:

And by YOUR logic we just take those "evil socialist programs" away from everyone else and we'll level the playing field (everyone will be poor and stoopid). Brilliant! :roll:

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if the people who believe that business taxes are consumer taxes also believe that government spending is consumer spending?

Come on senseamp, explain how a business pays taxes.


Really this should be fun to see. Come on, try it.

and then figure out, where do they get the money to pay them.


come on, even an idiot can get this right

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

Yup,
more people in poverty than some neigboring states.
higher percentage not graduating high school than some neighboring states
higher unemployment than some neighboring states
life expentacy by state, many low tax states are much higher


oh, yeah, much better than other states with lower taxes. Too bad you don't look jack up ever.

No, you're the one that consistently makes things up to support your far right/fascist opinions.
We have been throught this numerous times. Direct correlation between taxation and all the quality of life standards I mentioned. Low tax states=low education, wages, health care, etc. High tax states=better education, health care, etc.
Don't try and LIE and claim something that has been GONE OVER A HUNDRED TIMES HERE IN THIS FORUM is the complete opposite of the truth.

I used CDC numbers, numbers published by Illinois itself, and numbers provided by other sates.

So, how am I lieing. Are you too inept to use the internet?

There is no correlation except in your fantasy world. By your logic the schools in big cities would be graduating more kids per dollar than any other but its never true.

your beliefs are so stupid I am actually sad. :roll

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

Yup,
more people in poverty than some neigboring states.
higher percentage not graduating high school than some neighboring states
higher unemployment than some neighboring states
life expentacy by state, many low tax states are much higher


oh, yeah, much better than other states with lower taxes. Too bad you don't look jack up ever.

No, you're the one that consistently makes things up to support your far right/fascist opinions.
We have been throught this numerous times. Direct correlation between taxation and all the quality of life standards I mentioned. Low tax states=low education, wages, health care, etc. High tax states=better education, health care, etc.
Don't try and LIE and claim something that has been GONE OVER A HUNDRED TIMES HERE IN THIS FORUM is the complete opposite of the truth.

I used CDC numbers, numbers published by Illinois itself, and numbers provided by other sates.

So, how am I lieing. Are you too inept to use the internet?

There is no correlation except in your fantasy world. By your logic the schools in big cities would be graduating more kids per dollar than any other but its never true.

your beliefs are so stupid I am actually sad. :roll

Oh, stop your lying. You never post any facts, just your fascist opinions.
We all know it here in P&N.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

Yup,
more people in poverty than some neigboring states.
higher percentage not graduating high school than some neighboring states
higher unemployment than some neighboring states
life expentacy by state, many low tax states are much higher


oh, yeah, much better than other states with lower taxes. Too bad you don't look jack up ever.

No, you're the one that consistently makes things up to support your far right/fascist opinions.
We have been throught this numerous times. Direct correlation between taxation and all the quality of life standards I mentioned. Low tax states=low education, wages, health care, etc. High tax states=better education, health care, etc.
Don't try and LIE and claim something that has been GONE OVER A HUNDRED TIMES HERE IN THIS FORUM is the complete opposite of the truth.

I used CDC numbers, numbers published by Illinois itself, and numbers provided by other sates.

So, how am I lieing. Are you too inept to use the internet?

There is no correlation except in your fantasy world. By your logic the schools in big cities would be graduating more kids per dollar than any other but its never true.

your beliefs are so stupid I am actually sad. :roll

Oh, stop your lying. You never post any facts, just your fascist opinions.
We all know it here in P&N.

Welcome everyone to the moonbat retort when they lose!!!! What's next, call me a NAZI?

:rolleyes


Are you going to cry next?

 

[DerekP]

Well in my view both sides are a little short on sources on this one. Then again, some people here realize this is more an exercise in principles and ideas than cold hard facts.

Nothing wrong with stating your opinion,just recognize it as such. And realize you may not have all of the information on a subject.

It's not like we're making policy here or anything, only an exchange of ideas.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: techs
Yeah, taxes are bad. And Illinois has high taxes. They also have a far better standard of living than low tax states, longer and healthier lives, more access to health care, higher education, more wealth and do all that while supporting states like Mississippi and Alabama which have low taxes and a much lower standard of living.

Oops, I guess I just proved that there is a relationship between higher taxes and better living and a relationship between lower taxes and a lower standard of living.

By your logic, all we need to do is to raise taxes in Mississippi and Alabama and they'll have a much higher standard of living. Brilliant! :roll:

And by YOUR logic we just take those "evil socialist programs" away from everyone else and we'll level the playing field (everyone will be poor and stoopid). Brilliant! :roll:

Huh? I never said anything about "evil socialist programs" or taking them away from anybody. You either missed my point completely or imagined that I said or meant something that you fabricated in your head. I pointed out an obvious flaw in techs logic...nothing more, nothing less.

For the record, I don't think social programs are evil, nor want people to be poor and stupid. You seem to have a very active imagination. Are you up for a rational debate? Or are you content living in a world of make believe and polarized stereotypes?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DerekP

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, but what if I dont want a swimming pool? Is a swimming pool something a govt should be building? That is the problem, govt is doing all sorts of things it shouldnt be getting into and I think it needs to cut back. As for the 3x cost, #2 sums of that issue well.

Well in a standard democracy, I'd say elect someone who thinks like you do, and for a while that's how I saw the Democrat/Republican balance working. Democrats would spend, raise taxes, enact programs in the public good. Then it gets out of hand, the Republicans get voted in, cut taxes, cut programs, and the good ones have so much support they stay in place, while the bad ones or excessive ones are weeded out. Great oversimplification I know.

The past decade, you have a Democrat who balanced the budget and a Republican admin/congress who's abandoned all pretenses at fiscal conservatism.

I'm not quite sure where that leaves us, which is part of why I asked the questions I did.

One more question - what do you see the government doing that it shouldn't be involved in?

Yes, 50% of the problem lies right with the avg voter. A voter who is swayed by the bribes politicians give for a vote. The politicians understand if they send you a check for 100 bucks but through taxes they took 300. Most people are dumb enough to think they got something for free. So the avg voter is just as guilty as the politician for believing the politicians lies.

As for parts of govt I think it needs to get out of?

I'd say

Health Care-Health care costs have run amok since the govt started paying for a large portion of it since the 60s. Before the govt got involved health insurance was affordable and we had charity hospitals that took care of the poor.

Housing- Why the hell is the govt getting involved with helping people buy a house or live in an apt?

Building stadiums, office complex's for billionaires or multi billion dollar companies. The ultimate in political reach arounds. State money financing capital improvements for the rich.

Mass Transit - A money losing venture in nearly every city is has been deployed. People who pay for the systems dont even use it.

Wealth redistribution - Biggest con job yet by politicians. Claim to take from peter to pay paul when all they do is take from mike and peter to pay peter.

There are plenty of issues I am sure if I took the time can write. But the above list gives you an idea.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Mass Transit - A money losing venture in nearly every city is has been deployed. People who pay for the systems dont even use it.

Well according to your logic the same can be said about schools.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Mass Transit - A money losing venture in nearly every city is has been deployed. People who pay for the systems dont even use it.

No mass transit system in the nation can cover it's costs by the fares they take in. The benefit to the city is in cars off the road, less pollution, more attractive environments for business, and the ability to move people into and out of event venues more efficiently. While I don't think large mass transit systems are appropriate for every city, the Chicago metro area probably saves billions per year by having it's commuter rail and mass transit systems in place.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Genx87

Mass Transit - A money losing venture in nearly every city is has been deployed. People who pay for the systems dont even use it.

No mass transit system in the nation can cover it's costs by the fares they take in. The benefit to the city is in cars off the road, less pollution, more attractive environments for business, and the ability to move people into and out of event venues more efficiently. While I don't think large mass transit systems are appropriate for every city, the Chicago metro area probably saves billions per year by having it's commuter rail and mass transit systems in place.

They could if they charged a non-subsidized rate and made the users pay the full cost of the system.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Genx87

Mass Transit - A money losing venture in nearly every city is has been deployed. People who pay for the systems dont even use it.

No mass transit system in the nation can cover it's costs by the fares they take in. The benefit to the city is in cars off the road, less pollution, more attractive environments for business, and the ability to move people into and out of event venues more efficiently. While I don't think large mass transit systems are appropriate for every city, the Chicago metro area probably saves billions per year by having it's commuter rail and mass transit systems in place.

They could if they charged a non-subsidized rate and made the users pay the full cost of the system.

Lots of road construction/repair is subsidized using non-fuel tax revenue...

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if the people who believe that business taxes are consumer taxes also believe that government spending is consumer spending?

Come on senseamp, explain how a business pays taxes.


Really this should be fun to see. Come on, try it.

and then figure out, where do they get the money to pay them.


come on, even an idiot can get this right

Business pays taxes through reduced after tax profits. If the business was able to charge more for its product it would have already.

But I guess it is just the republicans up is down peace is war BS to try and claim people pay business taxes. What next are you going to say companies pay income tax because when taxes go up people just demand a higher salary?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Whether a business actually pays taxes depends on what happens to demand for their products or services when the price goes up, which is to say, how much of the tax they can offset by raising prices.

The tax is then split between shareholders and consumers in some unique-to-the-industry ratio.

The is no difference between a consumer or shareholder. Both are people, hence people pay all taxes, businesses do not pay any tax.

Actually, there is a substantial difference. One is a 'tax' on all earnings, and the other only on investment earnings.

So yes, people pay all the taxes no matter what, but from different pools depending on price elasticities.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if the people who believe that business taxes are consumer taxes also believe that government spending is consumer spending?

How can a govt entity be considered consumer spending? Business taxes are consumer taxes because the taxes are often pushed along in the cost of the sale.

You raise taxes on McDonalds and who pays? People see their value meals raised by 5 cents.

Basic economics people!!!!

When you change the price, you sell a different amount of product, therefore prices do not move in lockstep with costs, because firms make pricing decisions based on costs and demand, which generally is stable in the face of cost changes.

Demand is also not a number, it is (among other things) a function of price.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if the people who believe that business taxes are consumer taxes also believe that government spending is consumer spending?

Come on senseamp, explain how a business pays taxes.


Really this should be fun to see. Come on, try it.

and then figure out, where do they get the money to pay them.


come on, even an idiot can get this right

Business pays taxes through reduced after tax profits. If the business was able to charge more for its product it would have already.

But I guess it is just the republicans up is down peace is war BS to try and claim people pay business taxes. What next are you going to say companies pay income tax because when taxes go up people just demand a higher salary?

I got to hand it to you. Idiots always show off so well.

1. Where does the business get the funds to pay taxes?

People.

2. How do people pay the taxes imposed on businesses.

Through the cost of the goods and services the business provides.

3. Who is paying those costs?

People.

End of story.



Making it any simpler and I would have to put a brain in your head.

Businesses don't print money, they collect it.