if you were born a muslim palestinian...

[Lemon law]

American values are easy to apply when you have no real irons in the fire. Up close and personal, things change drastically. Fed stories about the other side being a monster long enough and it colors one attitude. Then when external parties stick their own desires into the mix, it becomes difficult to tell the players without a scorecard. A from which printer?

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Maybe EK touches another point here, when we talk about Israelis vs Palestinians and Arabs, its very hard to find any place on earth where the issues are more polarizing for everyone in any given region on earth.

But still we can look at a small slice in history and say Israel still maintains itself in a sea of total mid-east hostility, some six million Jews against almost 300 million Arabs. How much longer can Israeli military hegemony last? Especially when Israel is losing international support fast in the last decade. As Israel is now discovering that it can't build a Just Jewish State on the back of Palestinian oppression.

Its why I maintain, that the only route to future Israeli State viability and Arab acceptance is for Israel to support a Palestinian State. Because at this point in time, Israeli technology working with Arab State lack of technology is a win win way to build a
a more modern, prosperous, and more democratic mid-east.

With all the events of the Arab Spring, its a historical opportunity for Israel to find better relations with its neighbors, and become a positive and accepted part of the mid-east. And for that matter, in the long long history of the mid-east, we can find many periods when Jews and Arabs worked together for mutual advantage.

 

[randomrogue]

If I was a Muslim Palestinian I'd get a pass to work in Israel and I'd bang hot Israeli chicks all day long. Have you seen those women? OMG! I'd also open up a chain of brothels in the territories so that I could get rich.

Those that want to fight have no game.

 

[randomrogue]

BTW, didn't the UN declare both an Israeli state and a Palestinian state when they dissolved the British mandate? I could have sworn that was the case. Unfortionately 8 countries attacked the Jews and lost.

On top of that I could have sworn that there were millions of Palestinians in refuge camps all over the arab world that are treated like crap there and given no rights. They're basically the Roma of the middle east and nobody wants them.

 

[iGas]

BTW, didn't the UN declare both an Israeli state and a Palestinian state when they dissolved the British mandate? I could have sworn that was the case. Unfortionately 8 countries attacked the Jews and lost.

On top of that I could have sworn that there were millions of Palestinians in refuge camps all over the arab world that are treated like crap there and given no rights. They're basically the Roma of the middle east and nobody wants them.

Perhaps you might want read The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East.

 

[JEDIYoda]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israelis

Looks accurate to me!!

 

[kylebisme]

And what did the Palestinians try to do in 48; take and exterminate Israel?

No, that's not what happened. How did you come to believe such a flagrant misrepresentation of history? Regardless, one can listen to an Israeli explain the real history of the conflict here.

 

[davmat787]

Plenty of Palestinians and non-Jews live in Israel.

So if the aborigines started to bomb civilians and start a war against you saying all whiteys get out (i.e. we don't want to co-exist with you)...Aussies would do what?

Good question, RockSteady care to answer?

 

[kylebisme]

JS80's reply ignores the fact that while Israel did eventually grant some Palestinians Israeli citizenship; in the case of the few Palestinians who do go around bombing civilians, and that of the vast majority of Palestinians in general, "Israel stole the Palistinians land and told them to fuck off", just as RockSteady explained.

 

[iGas]

"if you were born a muslim palestinian... "Life would be horrific under Israeli occupation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

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Maybe EK touches another point here, when we talk about Israelis vs Palestinians and Arabs, its very hard to find any place on earth where the issues are more polarizing for everyone in any given region on earth.

But still we can look at a small slice in history and say Israel still maintains itself in a sea of total mid-east hostility, some six million Jews against almost 300 million Arabs. How much longer can Israeli military hegemony last? Especially when Israel is losing international support fast in the last decade. As Israel is now discovering that it can't build a Just Jewish State on the back of Palestinian oppression.

Its why I maintain, that the only route to future Israeli State viability and Arab acceptance is for Israel to support a Palestinian State. Because at this point in time, Israeli technology working with Arab State lack of technology is a win win way to build a
a more modern, prosperous, and more democratic mid-east.

With all the events of the Arab Spring, its a historical opportunity for Israel to find better relations with its neighbors, and become a positive and accepted part of the mid-east. And for that matter, in the long long history of the mid-east, we can find many periods when Jews and Arabs worked together for mutual advantage.

Arab rejection was occurring long before there was a Palestinian problem.
The Arabs do not care about the Palestinians; they are considered to be second class.

There are Arabs that are not going to accept a Jewish state in their midst period.

As long as those Arabs are influential in a government; issues will exist. Some of those Arabs live next door to Israel, others are Palestinians and others have money, influence and/or power.

And not one of those types cares about the Palestinians as a people - they are concerned about their own ego and influence. The Palestinians are a tool for them to misuse however they desire.

Israel has decent relations with Jordan - yes from a position of strength; but Jordan realizes that good relations are better than what they have had before that did them no good. Jordan kicked out the Palestinians and have demonstrated that they do not want to be responsible for those on the West Bank.

Israel had decent relations with Lebanon - again from a position of strength; but once the PLO and then Hezbollah started obtaining power/influence, it became a trip wire that only hurts Lebanon.

Israel has decent relations with Egypt - yes from a position of strength; but Egypt realized that good relations are better than what they have had before that did them no good. with the changing of the guard in Egypt, it may take a couple of years to see what Egypt becomes. They have kept Gaza under and Arab lock & key since the beginning and have demonstrated that they do not want to be responsible for those in Gaza.

Syria - nothing more needs to be said. Look at their involvement with Lebanon and the undeclared nuke reactor. They may want the Golan back; but will not guarantee peace for it. They provide support for the Palestinian leaderships that creates suffering for their people.

You see Hamas trying their best to make life in Gaza miserable to justify Hamas's existence. It is a police state under their thumb.

You see the external Arab influence in controlling the government of the West Bank - they are not allowed to make decisions on their own for their own best interests.

so back to the LL statement

Its why I maintain, that the only route to future Israeli State viability and Arab acceptance is for Israel to support a Palestinian State.

The Arabs do not give a damm about the Palestinians

 

[EagleKeeper]

BTW, didn't the UN declare both an Israeli state and a Palestinian state when they dissolved the British mandate? I could have sworn that was the case. Unfortionately 8 countries attacked the Jews and lost.

On top of that I could have sworn that there were millions of Palestinians in refuge camps all over the arab world that are treated like crap there and given no rights. They're basically the Roma of the middle east and nobody wants them.

A Jewish state was created. The Arabs did not want a Palestinian state. They wanted control over the area because many Arabs did not feel that the area was politically mature enough to be a state (so they stated).

I suspect that the neighboring states really wanted a land grab of Palestine itself

 

[Nebor]

"if you were born a muslim palestinian... "Life would be horrific under Israeli occupation.

Seemed pretty well rehearsed to me. Just like when the Palestinians send actors to pretend to be injured in Israeli strikes, take bodies out of the morgue to scatter around Israeli strikes, etc.

No sympathy here. Even if it was real, the little girl straight up said she doesn't want peace with the Jews. No sympathy for enemy combatants or terrorists.

 

[Carousel]

The way I view this conflict is a bit different then do most. Then again, I view everything a bit differently.

First of all, the Palestinians. If you are born to a Palestinian mother, a Palestinian father you WILL think the way they do. As a child, you will be fed propaganda, just as they have, and you WILL believe it. It's simply the way the human brain works. Their lies will become your truth. The thing is, however, that the lies and anti-Israeli propaganda they spew is actually the truth for them. They have been fed it and therefor they know nothing else. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to change that mental state after the age of 13. Whatever the child hears until their teenage state will remain with them until they die, like it or not.

This is exemplified by various occurrences. When feral children, raised by dogs/wolves, are found, scientists rarely get them to the mental capacity of the average human. Even if the child is found at the early age of 6 or 7, they develop much slower. When scientists tried to teach these poor souls how to speak they learn only a limited vocabulary - one of a 4 year old, and reach a plateau. Their brain is wired differently, and it is far too late to change anything.

The same thing happens to the Palestinians. Years of brainwashing leads the following generations to follow that same lifestyle - hating Israel and the Western world. It cannot be helped unless they are educated. That will take some interference, a task some will call inhumane and wrong.

Simply stated, environmental shaping is to blame here. There is no right side. Israeli's will argue that they are right, Palestinians the opposite, and everyone else sides with whomever they are ideologically closer to.

It will most likely come down to the survival of the fittest. I know this may sound extremely crude, but whoever manages to exterminate the other will be the victor here. It's always been that way and will always be that way. The millions of lives that will eventually be lost don't matter in the greater scheme of things - a very nihilistic thought I know, but it is true.

To quote Stalin, "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

 

[Lemon law]

Lets see if I can quite grasp what Carousel asserts, Palestinian are are fed propaganda and lies, but Israelis are not similarly fed Propaganda and lies.

Earth the Carousel, Palestinians tend to notice that they have no civil rights inside Israel, its not lies and propaganda, its reality.

 

[kylebisme]

Seemed pretty well rehearsed to me. Just like when the Palestinians send actors to pretend to be injured in Israeli strikes, take bodies out of the morgue to scatter around Israeli strikes, etc.

I don't suppose you have any evidence to support these claims, do you? Regardless, for a real example of a well rehearsed actor pretending, see here.

No sympathy here. Even if it was real, the little girl straight up said she doesn't want peace with the Jews. No sympathy for enemy combatants or terrorists.

So, what does holding a grudge against Israelis for killing her parents make the little girl in your eyes, an enemy combatant or terrorist? I take it one need not engage in any combat or terrorism to justify such labels to you?

 

[Carousel]

Lets see if I can quite grasp what Carousel asserts, Palestinian are are fed propaganda and lies, but Israelis are not similarly fed Propaganda and lies.

Earth the Carousel, Palestinians tend to notice that they have no civil rights inside Israel, its not lies and propaganda, its reality.

Incorrect assertion. My point is that both the Palestinians and the Israeli are fed propaganda, neither of which is completely honest.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Palestinians have a great PR system. They can produce evidence that can be shown as stagdd, they have learned how to count by magnitudes and they have supporters that lap if up. One can find anything to support a position or male it up as needed. People like our own Kyle here at P&N lap it up. Anything that might challenge the beliefs or theories fails. Simple little pieces that fall outside the picture have to be siezed on as a failure of the overall theory.

Stories are told/enhanced to create a viewpoint. Trick is when to see such and realize it. Sheep and groupies are unable to do so.
Actions always speak louder than words

 

[Nebor]

I don't suppose you have any evidence to support these claims, do you? Regardless, for a real example of a well rehearsed actor pretending, see here.


So, what does holding a grudge against Israelis for killing her parents make the little girl in your eyes, an enemy combatant or terrorist? I take it one need not engage in any combat or terrorism to justify such labels to you?

If you google for "palestinian fake victim" you'll find plenty of stuff. Here's one example.

Seeing as how we treat enemy combatants and terrorists as one and the same nowadays, I don't feel it's important to draw a distinction. No direct actions are necessary to earn the label; subversive, psychological, financial or propaganda actions are plenty.

 

[Jaskalas]

Lets see if I can quite grasp what Carousel asserts, Palestinian are are fed propaganda and lies, but Israelis are not similarly fed Propaganda and lies.

Earth the Carousel, Palestinians tend to notice that they have no civil rights inside Israel, its not lies and propaganda, its reality.

Then they should find civil rights in their own land. OUTSIDE Israel.

 

[Whiskey16]

kylebisme, it is not worth discussing this topic with nebor. He is upon the record for desiring Israeli genocide upon Palestinians and having Israeli conquer all of that land into the image of what he views an Israeli to be.


Now, sadly, citing laws and specific societal morals is often a lost cause here. Due to the lack of education, inadequate social upbringings, etc., there are some living in an anti-social void for first holding dear thoughts of categoring groups as being undeserving of equality, criminal inclinations, and well over a century old international norm that might-makes-rights. :'(

Simply stated, environmental shaping is to blame here. There is no right side.

Manufactured balances for a political argument are an interesting premise but have no sense in reality and may not deny the legal, social, and moral rights of those people who hold legal title to land.




Palestinians have rights:

• documents of legal title to lands
• Universal Rights - notably -
  • without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
  • Article 9
    • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
  • Article 13
    • (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
    • (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
  • Article 15
    • (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
    • (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
  • Article 17
    • (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

The crimes of an occupation and colonisation are certainly wrongs.

Diminishing judicial and social equality upon an ethnic/religious group of Israelis is also reprehensible.

Those without satisfactory morals and criminal inclinations will argue to deny a group their humanity and just rights while prompting on the crimes of those in power.

Radical is that of anti-social and criminal behaviour. Yes, in this region many sides are guilty of this, but only the Israelis hold such power of impunity to commit crimes upon another.

The continual injustice without recourse and radical behaviour upon a targeted a group will rationally prompt a opposition. Certainly not all opposition is extreme, but for strategic reasons it is convenient for the oppressors to categorise any as the same. Such categorisation, demeaning, and denying an identity and nationality of a people are among the first steps of ethnic cleansing and finally genocide.

Nothing that I have said is radical. It is common sense and just.

Sadly, there are many radicals on this forum who have no qualms upon condemning a population in favour of another.

 

[Whiskey16]

Then they should find civil rights in their own land. OUTSIDE Israel.

As long as such beliefs are held there will be no resolution.

That is not the Israel that was founded nor legislated to be.

Radical criminal inclinations such as the above warrant condemnation.

 

[Nebor]

As long as such beliefs are held there will be no resolution.

That is not the Israel that was founded nor legislated to be.

Radical criminal inclinations such as the above warrant condemnation.

🙄 Because your condemnation has done so much for the Palestinian cause.

 

[Lemon law]

Then they should find civil rights in their own land. OUTSIDE Israel.

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I have no idea where you live, but if someone stole all your land and property, took away all your legal rights, I doubt you would content yourself by simply going elsewhere as a proper solution.

In short, you have zero sense of justice as you side with only one side while ignoring the other.

 

[kylebisme]

Palestinians have a great PR system. They can produce evidence that can be shown as stagdd, they have learned how to count by magnitudes and they have supporters that lap if up. One can find anything to support a position or male it up as needed. People like our own Kyle here at P&N lap it up. Anything that might challenge the beliefs or theories fails. Simple little pieces that fall outside the picture have to be siezed on as a failure of the overall theory.

Stories are told/enhanced to create a viewpoint. Trick is when to see such and realize it. Sheep and groupies are unable to do so.
Actions always speak louder than words

Then why don't you get to action and show some of this staged evidence you claim rather than just spewing words? Perhaps because you are FoS here, just like you are with your "And what did the Palestinians try to do in 48; take and exterminate Israel?" BS?

If you google for "palestinian fake victim" you'll find plenty of stuff. Here's one example.

Wow, completely unsubstantiated claims in an unsigned article from an obviously biased website, you think that constitutes proof?

Seeing as how we treat enemy combatants and terrorists as one and the same nowadays, I don't feel it's important to draw a distinction. No direct actions are necessary to earn the label; subversive, psychological, financial or propaganda actions are plenty.

So, am I to take it you consider these young Israeli boys chanting "Death to the Arabs!" and "Slaughter the Arabs!" combatants/terrorists too, or do you hold different standards for Jews than you do for Arabs?

kylebisme, it is not worth discussing this topic with nebor.

It's not that I expect to reason with him, but I find exploring his pathology interesting on an academic level.

 

[Lemon law]

I find it interesting that KyleBisme wrote in response
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey16 View Post
kylebisme, it is not worth discussing this topic with nebor.
It's not that I expect to reason with him, but I find exploring his pathology interesting on an academic level."
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But still it somewhat puts the current Palestinian Israeli issues into perspective when we look at it from the Camera lens of today.

Because the world has largely ignored the plight of the Palestinian people for some 50 plus years. Can we totally blame Israel for taking the license to steal the world granted Israel by that larger world grant to Israel by previous apathy and inaction.

But now suddenly the larger world is changing and telling Israel they can no longer support Israeli policy that the world should have stopped way back in 1948. But now that the Palestinian plight has finally risen to the top of the priority list, its a problem Israel and the world will have to address. Because the issues are something Israel and the US simply can't keep kicking the can much further down the road.

The only question now is, will it be solved peacefully or will Israel be violently forced into submission by things like economic embargoes. Sadly, IMHO, Israel having a hardliner like Bozo Netanyuhu in charge, just increases the chance of Israel getting badly dope slapped and getting less in any final settlement.
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