If you DON'T support militaristic action against NK, why not?

[werepossum]

Hence the identity of the biggest problem. China. Chinese protection is the only reason why the North Korean regime has not yet been taken out. For some reason China has a use for North Korea and its current regime.

As China gets stronger militarily, I think conventional wisdom is shifting from "protecting itself from American aggression with a big puddle of crazy" to "preventing a unified Korea from becoming the kind of competitor we see in Taiwan." I'm guessing in a decade or two Red China will be so strong and dominant economically and militarily (within the area anyway) that it won't give two shits about North Korea and whether or not it collapses and/or unifies.

 

[BUnit1701]

Not sure if making farcical post about gun control or just clueless...

If we are going to start air dropping stuff into NK, I would think including weapons to allow for a civilian uprising would be a top priority.

 

[fskimospy]

If we are going to start air dropping stuff into NK, I would think including weapons to allow for a civilian uprising would be a top priority.

What actions do you think North Korea would take if we started air dropping rifles into their country? What likelihood do you give for those rifles to be used in some sort of rebellion as opposed to being taken by the government and used/sold? What political ramifications would all this have?

This is a terrible idea, all around.

 

[chihlidog]

I would fully support military action against NK.

There are indeed terrible conditions all around the world, but NK really takes the cake. It's so horrifying that I believe action is absolutely justified. If a person speaks ill of the leadership, he and his family can be sent to the prison camps. His whole family. They will die there, as well as their children and their children's children. If someone says "I wish I had more food", this can be the result.

The guards at the camps are inhuman, evil beasts. One of their common pastimes is to require a prisoner to kneel, head back, mouth open. The guards will then target practice spitting into the prisoner's mouth for entertainment.

If a woman who is raped by the guards is unlucky enough to get pregnant, she is often executed in front of her husband. Often by the same guard who RAPED her in front of her husband. To prevent this, some guards prefer to avoid pregnancy while raping the women, so there are many women who are incontinent due to the extreme violent and frequent nature of the sodomy committed on them. This can happen because a guy said he was hungry.

You know why they claim to love their leader? because if they dont say it enthusiastically enough they're afraid of what will happen to them and more importantly their families. How many hundreds of thousands of people are in these camps? And more are sent every day.

It's beyond sick. And yes, the rest of the world, America included, needs to do something about it.

 

[BoberFett]

And? When the NK people are ready to revolt, they will. Until they're ready, any outside military action will likely have the exact opposite effect you want it to.

 

[werepossum]

If we are going to start air dropping stuff into NK, I would think including weapons to allow for a civilian uprising would be a top priority.

If they are prepared to revolt, that might be effective. If not, we'd simply be arming the insurgency if we ever do invade.

 

[chihlidog]

And? When the NK people are ready to revolt, they will. Until they're ready, any outside military action will likely have the exact opposite effect you want it to.

When the people are so repressed do you actually think they'll have the guts to do it? They have neither the means nor the cajones to do it. They're so isolated that they dont even know how awesome the outside world can be in many respects, and that's one of the biggest problems. But watch some documentaries, do a little reading. It's clear that they are so completely and utterly terrified of getting caught even THINKING something negative about their boy-king that they SCREAM his praises. Of COURSE they do because if they dont, they KNOW how their parents/children/spouse/siblings will end up.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

When the people are so repressed do you actually think they'll have the guts to do it? They have neither the means nor the cajones to do it. They're so isolated that they dont even know how awesome the outside world can be in many respects, and that's one of the biggest problems. But watch some documentaries, do a little reading. It's clear that they are so completely and utterly terrified of getting caught even THINKING something negative about their boy-king that they SCREAM his praises. Of COURSE they do because if they dont, they KNOW how their parents/children/spouse/siblings will end up.

NK is a monster created by China and Russia. Let them handle it.

 

[BoberFett]

When the people are so repressed do you actually think they'll have the guts to do it? They have neither the means nor the cajones to do it. They're so isolated that they dont even know how awesome the outside world can be in many respects, and that's one of the biggest problems. But watch some documentaries, do a little reading. It's clear that they are so completely and utterly terrified of getting caught even THINKING something negative about their boy-king that they SCREAM his praises. Of COURSE they do because if they dont, they KNOW how their parents/children/spouse/siblings will end up.

If they're so utterly incapable of doing or thinking anything outside of what they're told, how exactly will they respond to being "liberated"? If the first US bomb dropped results in The Littlest Dictator getting on the radio and instructing everyone to kill themselves, what then?

 

[fskimospy]

When the people are so repressed do you actually think they'll have the guts to do it? They have neither the means nor the cajones to do it. They're so isolated that they dont even know how awesome the outside world can be in many respects, and that's one of the biggest problems. But watch some documentaries, do a little reading. It's clear that they are so completely and utterly terrified of getting caught even THINKING something negative about their boy-king that they SCREAM his praises. Of COURSE they do because if they dont, they KNOW how their parents/children/spouse/siblings will end up.

One nice thing about the information age is that as technology gets cheaper and more ubiquitous the North Korean government is having more and more trouble keeping information out. I think this is one of the best long term ways to destabilize their hold, and it seems to be progressing slowly but surely.

 

[rommelrommel]

If we are going to start air dropping stuff into NK, I would think including weapons to allow for a civilian uprising would be a top priority.

The average NK hardly can obtain enough calories to survive, knows almost nothing about the outside world, and knows that if he even says something not-terrific about the govt that he and 3 generations of his family will go to a slave labour camp.

You really think a population like that is going to fight an insurgency against the NK government?

The absolute best case to come from dropping weapons into NK would be that no one finds them.

 

[Doppel]

And? When the NK people are ready to revolt, they will. Until they're ready, any outside military action will likely have the exact opposite effect you want it to.

They seem as able to revolt as a starving dog in a cage. It has no power, they have no power. They cannot communicate freely or congregate freely. Like 1984 everybody can be a spy. This is why I take issue with some of the false comparisons above to other countries like China. NK is nothing like China or any other country on the planet. The people are so patently ignorant that many don't even realize how bad they have it; don't even know they should revolt. And those who want to have ZERO chance of starting anything because they have no way to communicate.

The only chance of change within the country is if there is a coup and the new leadership has a change of heart.

NK is a monster created by China and Russia. Let them handle it.

They are human beings. Completely innocent victims. Children born into poverty due to not lack of resources in the country but because of its evil leadership. Some of the examples just posted about what guards do is merely a small token of life in NK.

 

[Zorkorist]

You underestimate people. They absolutely have knowledge of their poor condition in life. They absolutely could revolt, if they wanted to.

They could gather together, plan, instigate, fight, die, or win.

They choose not to.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

This is why Government is so successful, people like to be ruled.

-John

 

[DrPizza]

Here's a bizarre idea: how about a buy-out? Offer a few billions of dollars to NK's leaders. They get a free pass to wherever they want to live in the world, and turn the country over to a partnership of UN nations, led by China (since they're the closest major power.)

 

[WelshBloke]

They could gather together, plan, instigate, fight, die, or win.

They choose not to.

-John

No they couldn't gather together. There's no freedom of movement, nor any freedom of association.
There's also no easy way to communicate.

 

[destey]

Spreading freedom and democracy does not work. The people have to want it enough to claim it for themselves.

What would happen if NK was invaded? Would the populace welcome the invaders bringing them freedom? Or would they think the invaders were the enemy, bringing destruction and spreading lies about Dear Leader? And what would they do with democracy? Install another dictator?

Exactly. They would support their horrible leader more than ever. We'd be the villains.

 

[AViking]

Here's a bizarre idea: how about a buy-out? Offer a few billions of dollars to NK's leaders. They get a free pass to wherever they want to live in the world, and turn the country over to a partnership of UN nations, led by China (since they're the closest major power.)

They don't need more money. They have all the money PLUS power and tons of fetishes being satisfied daily.

 

[Doppel]

You underestimate people. They absolutely have knowledge of their poor condition in life. They absolutely could revolt, if they wanted to.

They could gather together, plan, instigate, fight, die, or win.

They choose not to.

-John

Not only have experts on NK reported that the people DON'T know their plight to the full extent that it exists, but no they cannot gather together. There are spies everywhere and all gatherings are state sanctioned or they don't happen at all. The people have no internet, no pirate radio stations, etc. there is no way for them to communicate. They keep their dislikes about the state to themselves or within their immediate family. Anything more than that is massively hedged because somebody can always be watching. And if being caught means not only do you die but your entire family and extended family ends up in a work camp it has a tendency to cool your guns. If you were put in their situation you would do the same thing, which is to say exactly nothing because you have no power. They are powerless.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

You underestimate people. They absolutely have knowledge of their poor condition in life. They absolutely could revolt, if they wanted to.

They could gather together, plan, instigate, fight, die, or win.

They choose not to.

-John

The army consists of about 9.5M. So how many do you think are required to organize a succesful revolt?

Let's say you gather 1000 people likeminded people without the government noticing. That's nowhere near enough to stand any chance of success. So you go for 10,000. Then among those there is one person who is either pro-government or is simply scared for his family, and rats you out. Not 10k people will be put in camps, but also every single of their family members. So rather than being the 'brave John, signing up for duty to fight against the oppressive regime' you would suddenly be the guy who signed up every single family member (from infants in the family to any living grandparent) to a live of torture and rape, as well as any future family member that is allowed to be born.

Do you have any young kids, or nieces/nephews? Imagine having to watch them go through that, then say that you would gladly and willingly risk choosing that 'life' for them on the chance that you can gather enough people behind you to overthrow the government.

Fear and misinformation is so strong there that people don't even know whether they can trust their own family members, let alone strangers. If even a few friends come over you can be certain that, even if none of them nor your neighbours will tell on you, you will be monitored by the government. They don't take any chances, they make sure no one has the opportunity to start a revolt, and you can't organize large meetings without government permission.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

They are human beings. Completely innocent victims. Children born into poverty due to not lack of resources in the country but because of its evil leadership. Some of the examples just posted about what guards do is merely a small token of life in NK.

Have you ever read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-O...ds=north+korea

It is a fabulous book that I just couldn't put down. Perhaps the saddest story is of a North Korean doctor who made it across the Yalu and into China. While wondering the countryside, she came upon a home and in front of that home, in the yard, was a bowl full of meat and rice. She was amazed and didn't understand why it was there. Then it dawned on her -- it was dog food, and dogs in China (a relatively poor part of China IIRC) were eating much better than human beings in North Korea.

Anyway, back to the discussion. I hate the situation Doppel. I feel very, very sorry for those poor people. I've read many books on North Korea and know very well how bad it is for the people there. But what can we really do about it? It really is a situation where South Korea has to make the call and even more importantly, China needs to take ownership of the situation or at least, not prevent the world from doing something. Notice I said "world." I feel bad for the folks in North Korea, but I don't want to waste a single drop of American blood.

Think about this for a minute -- China knows full well what is going on in North Korea. Russia does too. Yet these two will do everything in their power to prevent action against North Korea, even threats of additional sanctions. What does that tell you about these two countries? If they don't want to get involved, fine, but why actively block others who would take even additional political or economic measures against the North Korean regime?

If you really wanted to end the regime in NK, the best bet would be for the CIA or other intelligence agencies to make contacts in the NK military and over time, maybe bring divisions over to the side wanting to free North Korea. As you probably know, though, that is almost an impossible task given the scrutiny and distrust sewn into each and every North Korean by their government's propaganda.

So, I'll ask, what would you have us do?

You underestimate people. They absolutely have knowledge of their poor condition in life. They absolutely could revolt, if they wanted to.

They could gather together, plan, instigate, fight, die, or win.

They choose not to.

-John

Some do, some don't. I don't think anyone knows for certain how much of the North Korean population is actually loyal to the Kims and believes them as opposed to those who know it is all a lie and are just trying to survive. From some of the documentaries I've seen, some of them REALLY seem to believe in the propaganda and if it is an act, they should be kidnapped and brought to Hollywood immediately.

I personally wonder if Kim Jong Un is even the one in charge or merely a figurehead.

 

[destey]

Also there's a fair number of people upset at the US govt and how they act (not saying they're remotely comparable), but even with our freedom of speech/assembly, all you really see is people venting in internet forums. Maybe at the most, like after the NYSAFE act, they complain in town-hall meetings.

It comes down to people are OK, maybe not happy, but OK with how they are living (US and NK) and aren't willing to jeopardize that. Especially with how accurate Sky is in the post 120. Things have to get pretty bad for people to throw away the lives they have and risk everything.

 

[Greenman]

Here's a bizarre idea: how about a buy-out? Offer a few billions of dollars to NK's leaders. They get a free pass to wherever they want to live in the world, and turn the country over to a partnership of UN nations, led by China (since they're the closest major power.)

I like the cash and carry idea, I've proposed it as an alternative to the war on drugs. But I thought dictators got off on the power, not so much the money.

 

[Doppel]

Have you ever read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-O...ds=north+korea

It is a fabulous book that I just couldn't put down. Perhaps the saddest story is of a North Korean doctor who made it across the Yalu and into China. While wondering the countryside, she came upon a home and in front of that home, in the yard, was a bowl full of meat and rice. She was amazed and didn't understand why it was there. Then it dawned on her -- it was dog food, and dogs in China (a relatively poor part of China IIRC) were eating much better than human beings in North Korea.

Anyway, back to the discussion. I hate the situation Doppel. I feel very, very sorry for those poor people. I've read many books on North Korea and know very well how bad it is for the people there. But what can we really do about it? It really is a situation where South Korea has to make the call and even more importantly, China needs to take ownership of the situation or at least, not prevent the world from doing something. Notice I said "world." I feel bad for the folks in North Korea, but I don't want to waste a single drop of American blood.

Think about this for a minute -- China knows full well what is going on in North Korea. Russia does too. Yet these two will do everything in their power to prevent action against North Korea, even threats of additional sanctions. What does that tell you about these two countries? If they don't want to get involved, fine, but why actively block others who would take even additional political or economic measures against the North Korean regime?

If you really wanted to end the regime in NK, the best bet would be for the CIA or other intelligence agencies to make contacts in the NK military and over time, maybe bring divisions over to the side wanting to free North Korea. As you probably know, though, that is almost an impossible task given the scrutiny and distrust sewn into each and every North Korean by their government's propaganda.

So, I'll ask, what would you have us do?



Some do, some don't. I don't think anyone knows for certain how much of the North Korean population is actually loyal to the Kims and believes them as opposed to those who know it is all a lie and are just trying to survive. From some of the documentaries I've seen, some of them REALLY seem to believe in the propaganda and if it is an act, they should be kidnapped and brought to Hollywood immediately.

I personally wonder if Kim Jong Un is even the one in charge or merely a figurehead.

I did read that and it was interesting. It is telling that some are so determined to leave NK that they have defected even while leaving their family behind knowing what will happen to them. That is selfish but speaks also to the inhumanity of living there longer and so is difficult to condemn.

I don't see why we should leave this up to SK. If we accept that NKers are part of the human race it is the human race's duty to look out for the to some degree. As far as what to do we need Obama to give some gifts to Beijing and Putin very quietly and have them promise that they will deny the cruise missiles sent to flatten the NK party headquarters were seen as having come from US destroyers. Target their leadership and deny having done so. Kill Kim and all his generals and sycophants next time they are in their meeting hall, just cut all the heads off.

UN won't do anything about this I am afraid. The NK gov has done what any good dictator does which is be such shit that they have ensured they can never be let go because they will hang. As such thy have nothing to lose by continuing in their present course.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I did read that and it was interesting. It is telling that some are so determined to leave NK that they have defected even while leaving their family behind knowing what will happen to them. That is selfish but speaks also to the inhumanity of living there longer and so is difficult to condemn.

I don't see why we should leave this up to SK. If we accept that NKers are part of the human race it is the human race's duty to look out for the to some degree. As far as what to do we need Obama to give some gifts to Beijing and Putin very quietly and have them promise that they will deny the cruise missiles sent to flatten the NK party headquarters were seen as having come from US destroyers. Target their leadership and deny having done so. Kill Kim and all his generals and sycophants next time they are in their meeting hall, just cut all the heads off.

UN won't do anything about this I am afraid. The NK gov has done what any good dictator does which is be such shit that they have ensured they can never be let go because they will hang. As such thy have nothing to lose by continuing in their present course.

But Pyongyang is an entire city of his sycophants -- that's how you get to live in the capital in the first place. You're not going to do this without boots on the ground, otherwise the general who wasn't at the meeting for whatever reason will seize power and may be just as bad.

The UN won't do anything about it -- you're right about that. It is a horrible situation and I agree with what someone said earlier -- at some point in history, when the NK regime is gone and the true magnitude of the atrocities are discovered, people will ask how the world let this happen.