If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, you may not like this Thread . . .

[apoppin]

Would you please take the Off-Topic SUB Discussion about the USA's economic history OUT of this thread.

I can't see any relation (any longer) to a World View of the Iraqi War. If you think I am wrong, please feel to disagree.

Please link to it here.

 

[BOBDN]

About cutting taxes, I don't know what he was thinking there. I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more taxes but I wish I could choose where they go. I don't want to pay for some welfare queen in the ghetto to have kids. If they cannot support a child, they shouldn't have a child.

I can agree with most of what you said. But the line I quoted above I can't agree with. Welfare reform was instituted during the Clinton administration. Five year maximum. The welfare rolls have shrunk drastically.

While working people are busy worrying about someone getting welfare they should know a few facts about it. The majority of people who get welfare in the US aren't "some welfare queen in the ghetto." They majority are rural people, white. Not that it matters. If someone needs assistance to get on their feet they should get it. But today people are working for less than they were in real dollars 25 years ago. And they have to pay for child care while they're working. If they want to improve their lot in life through education the costs involved there are higher than ever. So who winds up suffering and being held in a cycle of poverty? The children.

On top of that the welfare system in this country that should be inspiring outrage is the welfare system for the rich. People who have more money than they can ever spend getting perks and retirement packages they should be ashamed of. Example: Jack Welch. The guy is worth an estimated $900 million. We all read about his retirement deal with GE. Who pays for this type of excess? We do, every time we buy a GE product. And this kind of nonsense is repeated thousands of times at thousands of companies all across our nation. And we get to pay for their excess every time. Now that's welfare. Along with the top corporations earning billions every year and paying not one cent in taxes. Or going off shore to set up shop to avoid taxes. I know what some will say. We'll pay for the taxes in the end. It all comes down to the bottom line. Well, it would make me feel better just knowing someone was paying their share like I am even if it did cost me more at the retail counter. I can make the decision to purchase or not. Let them pay their share.

 

[BOBDN]

OOPS! Sorry I hijacked your thread. You know, once these things get started they're like a patriot missile. Likely to end up anywhere.

*EDIT* Oops again! I meant a cruise missile, but I wouldn't want anyone firing either one around my neighborhood. Whether they were doing it to "liberate" me or not.

 

[Format C:]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
...Why doesn't Bush try some tactic other than targeted tax cuts for the wealthiest 10% to get this economy moving? ...

Yeah! We should cut taxes on the poorest 10%. That'd get that ole economy buzzing in a hurry. Right? If you don't want to be called an idiot then don't BE an idiot.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
OOPS! Sorry I hijacked your thread. You know, once these things get started they're like a patriot missile. Likely to end up anywhere.

*EDIT* Oops again! I meant a cruise missile, but I wouldn't want anyone firing either one around my neighborhood. Whether they were doing it to "liberate" me or not.

No really, it's a "good" topic and should be discussed . . . head over to OT for a "break" and try posting a New Topic over there. After you do, come back here and LINK to it so it will get a "proper start".

Just a suggestion.

 

[BOBDN]

Yeah! We should cut taxes on the poorest 10%. That'd get that ole economy buzzing in a hurry. Right? If you don't want to be called an idiot then don't BE an idiot.

Are you related to shinerburke? Same crude method of talking to people.

A simple mind makes assumptions which are not supported by the facts at hand. Take some time and determine what options other than emptying the treasury for the top 10% of our citizens I could be referring to.

And try to be civil.

My apologies apoppin. I'm going over to OT and post a new subject now.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Yeah! We should cut taxes on the poorest 10%. That'd get that ole economy buzzing in a hurry. Right? If you don't want to be called an idiot then don't BE an idiot.

Are you related to shinerburke? Same crude method of talking to people.

A simple mind makes assumptions which are not supported by the facts at hand. Take some time and determine what options other than emptying the treasury for the top 10% of our citizens I could be referring to.

And try to be civil.

My apologies apoppin. I'm going over to OT and post a new subject now.

Thank-you and no problem . . . I just gotta try and jumpstart this thread again . . . don't forget to give us the new topic's link.

Letsee, now where were we:

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: On ABC now - Egypt's President says this will cause 100 Bin Ladins and have UNITED terrorist organizations. And now 7,500 have crossed into Iraq to fight the Coalition including returning Iraqis.

What I said about the arabs uniting against US seems to be coming true.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would not doubt it.The US is certainly committing "terrorism" against the Iraqis. If bombs exploding all around you in the middle of the night isn't terrorizing, then I don't know what is. And I suppose what goes around comes around. The horrifying images from Iraq will push those who were already hostile enough towards the US over the edge. And since they do not have $75 billion to spend fighting us, they will resort to "budget" means of fighting, ie: suicide bombings. In fact, I now fear a terrorist attack against our country much more than I did a year ago. So I just don't see how violence can stop violence.

The NEXT post - although relevant took this way OT.

 

[BOBDN]

It is a horrifying thought but I agree with you. I read today the US will spend more next year on defence than every other nation in the world COMBINED! With that kind of discrepancy in defence spending people who view us now as "imperialists" thanks to Bush and his neo-conservatives cohorts will be more inclined to use whatever means necessary to strike back.

And the most likely place for them to attack, God forbid, is right back here in NY. I live 15 miles from the city. You can see the skyline from here. The aid Bush promised after 9/11 to help cities protect themselves against terrorists is now just beginning to flow after 18 MONTHS!

I guess that's the most tragic link between the war, terrorism and the economy. Under Bush we just don't have the money available to protect our cities against terror. The states are struggling with deficits just as the federal government. In just two short years we have been reduced to a supply side nightmare thanks to George W. Bush.

I began a new topic at Off Topic. Here's the link. I called it It's the economy, stupid.

 

[Loralon]

Originally posted by: Marshallj

Originally posted by: Morph
Wow, it's great that we have all these experts on missile blast effects here. Now what is your explanation for the Iraqi guy that has his hands on part of the bomb that's clearly not an Iraqi SAM? Maybe you experts can identify that missile from the markings on it?

It's amazing how many completely clueless people we have on here who need others to spoon feed them the information and provide links to click on, but I'll be more than glad to help you out.

One thing to keep in mind is that the article gives the impression that if the writing is not in Arabic, then it must not be an Iraqi missile. But since Iraq mostly uses old Soviet equipment, it probably wouldn't have arabic writing on it.

If you noticed, I said that my guesses are that it looks like a surface to air missile, a anti-radiation missile, or maybe an artillery shell. I didn't definitively state that it was an Iraqi surface to air missile, so don't even try to imply that I did.

Here's what a crater made by a bomb looks like:

http://jim.rees.org/pcd10/57.jpg

Here's another, this one by a 1,000 lb. bomb.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/247infantry/images/swimbomb2.jpg

and another:

http://www.tallcomanche.org/Comanche_Bomb_Crater_Swimming_from_Holcombe.jpg

And here's one that's still there from WW2:

http://www.nymcam.free-online.co.uk/111501cc.jpg

Do you see the similarities? A bomb's warhead is usually 500-2,000 lbs. They make a big hole in the ground.

A 105mm artillery shell's warhead us about 30-35 lbs. It will make a smaller hole in the ground.

Anti-radiation missiles like the HARM have a warhead of about 140 lbs.

SAMs come in all sizes, from man portable missiles with 3 lb warheads to large missiles with 500+ lb warheads. Since the crater is so small I'd imagine that it's not one of the very large ones.

Just using a little common sense goes a long way in looking for the truth. I cannot say exactly which model of weapon caused the damage, but from looking at the amount of damage, common sense tells me that it wasn't caused by a bullet or hand grenade, it's not from a man portable sam, and it's not from a 2,000 lb bomb. Artillery shells, mid sized SAMS and ARMS would be a good start.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood my question from earlier. It was supposed to be somewhat rhetotical. My original conclusion was that it was probably a large caliber Iraqi AAA round. I would agree that's it's rather obvious that the crater wasn't the result of bomb damage. It's far too small for even a 500lb bomb. Although the explosive power of some missles mentioned would be in the range where we might see such damage being generated, I would think that'd be highly unlikely simply from the visual evidence. The crater itself seems to indicate that the damage was from a direct contact explosive and the ground surrounding the crater lacked the pitting damage I would expect to see from the fragmentation warheads found on anti-radiation, or surface-to-air missiles.

 

[RossGr]

100 Bin Ladins and have UNITED terrorist organizations

Think about this for a miniute, where are the 100 Billionaire coming from? Isn't the true power of Bin Laden his finical SUPPORT of the terrorists. I really do not believe that 100 Billionairs are going to be popping out of the woodwork to bedevil us.

As for wether we are winning or losing the war, there is not but a handful of people in the world who have sufficient information at hand to judge this.

All the rest is pure speculation. I choose not to speculate.

We will not know till it is history if this war was the right thing to do. One thing that is clear, we are now committed and the worst possible thing to do would be stop half way. We must press on and hope for the best, Monday morning quarterbacking decisions already made helps no one.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: RossGr

100 Bin Ladins and have UNITED terrorist organizations

Think about this for a miniute, where are the 100 Billionaire coming from? Isn't the true power of Bin Laden his finical SUPPORT of the terrorists. I really do not believe that 100 Billionairs are going to be popping out of the woodwork to bedevil us.

As for wether we are winning or losing the war, there is not but a handful of people in the world who have sufficient information at hand to judge this.

All the rest is pure speculation. I choose not to speculate.

We will not know till it is history if this war was the right thing to do. One thing that is clear, we are now committed and the worst possible thing to do would be stop half way. We must press on and hope for the best, Monday morning quarterbacking decisions already made helps no one.

These new Bin Ladins will have NO TROUBLE getting money and support from (formerly) MODERATE Arabs.

"Press on and hope" that Saddam doesn't kill MILLIONS of people in the siege of Baghdad.

:Q

 

[mrbentley]

the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.
Quote:
Meanwhile it has emerged - as a result of detective work on the internet by a Guardian reader - that the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.

A metal fragment found at the scene by British journalist Robert Fisk carried various markings, including "MFR 96214 09". This, our reader pointed out in an email, is a manufacturer's identification number known as a "cage code".

Cage codes can be looked up on the internet (www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil), and keying in the number 96214 traces the fragment back to a plant in McKinney, Texas, owned by the Raytheon Company.

Raytheon, whose headquarters are in Lexington, Massachusetts, aspires "to be the most admired defence and aerospace systems supplier through world-class people and technology", according to its website (www.raytheon.com). It makes a vast array of military equipment, including the AGM-129 cruise missile which is launched from B-52 bombers.

 

[apoppin]

That is an excellent link! They have more on the "incident" of the Soldiers firing on the Civilians at the checkpoint:

'You didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!'

A journalist's account of the killing of a car full of Iraqi civilians by US soldiers differs widely from the official military version, says Brian Whitaker Tuesday April 1, 2003

The invasion forces suffered another self-inflicted disaster in the battle for hearts and minds yesterday when soldiers from the US 3rd infantry division shot dead Iraqi seven women and children.

The incident occurred on Route 9, near Najaf, when a car carrying 13 women and children approached a checkpoint.

A US military spokesman says the soldiers motioned the vehicle to stop but their signals were ignored. However, according to the Washington Post, Captain Ronny Johnson, who was in charge of the checkpoint, blamed his own troops for ignoring orders to fire a warning shot.

"You just fscking killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!", he reportedly yelled at them.

In another checkpoint incident this morning, US forces say they killed an unarmed Iraqi driver outside Shatra.

:Q

Can you see a PATTERN of differences between Official sources and eyewitness accounts?

 

[DZip]

This war is a result of the UN not forcing Saddom to prove he had complied with the terms of the cease-fire after the 1991 war. He claims he don't have WMD but has yet to prove he destroyed them. The fact is the UN has no balls. Most of the European members have violated the terms of the cease-fire by supplying Saddom with materials that are not allowed under those terms. Look at the weapons they have: AK47's, T72 tanks, SCUD's, Mirage jets, MIG jets, Chinese missiles, etc.. Russia, France, Germany, China have all violated the terms and that is the reason for the opposition. When the war is over, I hope everyone remembers who helped Saddom to kill American, British, Australian, Polish, and other coalition members.

All of you that are experts on war should know that once the shooting starts, the plan changes, and it could change in the field very quickly. The field commanders have much more intelligence concerning the field conditions than everyone at the Pentagon. This is the reason President Bush appointed a qualified field General to call the shots. I am confident that our soldiers will do there best to protect innocent civilians. These civilians need to follow instructions to stop, if they don't, then they are no longer civilians, but combatants.

 

[apoppin]

And what IF we don't give CLEAR indications to STOP? i.e "no warning shot"
(did you even bother to read the post above yours?)

Then we are not protecting civilians as well as we should.

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: mrbentley
the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.
Quote:
Meanwhile it has emerged - as a result of detective work on the internet by a Guardian reader - that the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.

A metal fragment found at the scene by British journalist Robert Fisk carried various markings, including "MFR 96214 09". This, our reader pointed out in an email, is a manufacturer's identification number known as a "cage code".

Cage codes can be looked up on the internet (www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil), and keying in the number 96214 traces the fragment back to a plant in McKinney, Texas, owned by the Raytheon Company.

Raytheon, whose headquarters are in Lexington, Massachusetts, aspires "to be the most admired defence and aerospace systems supplier through world-class people and technology", according to its website (www.raytheon.com). It makes a vast array of military equipment, including the AGM-129 cruise missile which is launched from B-52 bombers.

I'm curious as to how they determined that this was from a cruise missile. The key code just states that it's made by Ratheon, which makes a variety of equipment.

A cruise missile would do more than make a small crater in the ground, its warhead is quite large and would cause widespread damage and send shrapnel all over the place.

Instead of just reading about the crater, does anyone have any pics of the damage?

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
They majority are rural people, white.

Why are you bringing race into this?

Who said people in the ghetto can't be white?

 

[LunarRay]

Quote
All of you that are experts on war should know that once the shooting starts, the plan changes, and it could change in the field very quickly. The field commanders have much more intelligence concerning the field conditions than everyone at the Pentagon. This is the reason President Bush appointed a qualified field General to call the shots. I am confident that our soldiers will do there best to protect innocent civilians. These civilians need to follow instructions to stop, if they don't, then they are no longer civilians, but combatants.[/quote]

**********************

Lets see if I understand this... A van load of civilian women and children by vitrue of whatever was going on in the mind of the driver are being transported toward a check point which they may or may not have known the nature of cease being civilians at the moment the driver ignors for what ever reason an instruction to stop and become combatants... weaponless two year old child is a combatant and thereby gets blown up or shot.
I am confident our soldiers will follow their orders and defend their positions using deadly force against and unknown potential threat after issuing the appropriate warnings. In so doing, however, they (actually the policy makers) create the very attitude against the US that the Saddamites are trying so very hard to establish.. Hatred for the invading infidel.
Seems like a no win scenerio in the short term to me.

 

[RossGr]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: RossGr

100 Bin Ladins and have UNITED terrorist organizations

Think about this for a miniute, where are the 100 Billionaire coming from? Isn't the true power of Bin Laden his finical SUPPORT of the terrorists. I really do not believe that 100 Billionairs are going to be popping out of the woodwork to bedevil us.

As for wether we are winning or losing the war, there is not but a handful of people in the world who have sufficient information at hand to judge this.

All the rest is pure speculation. I choose not to speculate.

We will not know till it is history if this war was the right thing to do. One thing that is clear, we are now committed and the worst possible thing to do would be stop half way. We must press on and hope for the best, Monday morning quarterbacking decisions already made helps no one.

These new Bin Ladins will have NO TROUBLE getting money and support from (formerly) MODERATE Arabs.


You see no difference between getting the money and HAVING the money?
"Press on and hope" that Saddam doesn't kill MILLIONS of people in the siege of Baghdad.

:Q

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: HJD1
Quote
All of you that are experts on war should know that once the shooting starts, the plan changes, and it could change in the field very quickly. The field commanders have much more intelligence concerning the field conditions than everyone at the Pentagon. This is the reason President Bush appointed a qualified field General to call the shots. I am confident that our soldiers will do there best to protect innocent civilians. These civilians need to follow instructions to stop, if they don't, then they are no longer civilians, but combatants.

**********************

Lets see if I understand this... A van load of civilian women and children by vitrue of whatever was going on in the mind of the driver are being transported toward a check point which they may or may not have known the nature of cease being civilians at the moment the driver ignors for what ever reason an instruction to stop and become combatants... weaponless two year old child is a combatant and thereby gets blown up or shot.
I am confident our soldiers will follow their orders and defend their positions using deadly force against and unknown potential threat after issuing the appropriate warnings. In so doing, however, they (actually the policy makers) create the very attitude against the US that the Saddamites are trying so very hard to establish.. Hatred for the invading infidel.
Seems like a no win scenerio in the short term to me.[/quote]

Did you miss this report or does nobody want to comment on it. Encore Presentation of Another View

'You didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!'

A journalist's account of the killing of a car full of Iraqi civilians by US soldiers differs widely from the official military version, says Brian Whitaker

Tuesday April 1, 2003

The invasion forces suffered another self-inflicted disaster in the battle for hearts and minds yesterday when soldiers from the US 3rd infantry division shot dead Iraqi seven women and children.

The incident occurred on Route 9, near Najaf, when a car carrying 13 women and children approached a checkpoint.

A US military spokesman says the soldiers motioned the vehicle to stop but their signals were ignored. However, according to the Washington Post, Captain Ronny Johnson, who was in charge of the checkpoint, blamed his own troops for ignoring orders to fire a warning shot.

"You just fscking killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!", he reportedly yelled at them.

In another checkpoint incident this morning, US forces say they killed an unarmed Iraqi driver outside Shatra.

:Q

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Well to be accurate, the downturn started well before Bush took office. I was going for a job when Clinton was still in office in 2000, and I couldn't get in because there was a hiring freeze. I had my friend do some digging and it turned out that the company (Nortel) knew it was doing poorly, and had been for quite some time. You can only play with the numbers for so long before you have to start laying people off. The dot com crash seriously hurt the tech industry. It made people and companies lose confidence. People stopped investing in tech companies, people stopped buying networking equipment, people stopped hiring tech workers... it was all downhill from there.

I've read it can take 6 months to a year to pinpoint when a downturn begins. The people who handle the chore pinpointed this recession as beginning in Q1, 2001. But it's really open to interpretation.

I guess one of my points is, if Bush and Co. are the economic genuises they claim to be why haven't they been able to turn this around? Even a little? Even with the aid of a dozen interest rate cuts from Greenspan?

And why start an invasion of a country that was not threatening us or their neighbors at the initial cost of $75 billion? And the projected additional cost of another $100 billion? While attempting to pass a $760 billion tax cut?

Another mystery. During the 90's the Gingrich Republicans decried budget deficits as anethma. They said we were mortgaging our children's future. Passing on the cost of our "party" to them. Now Bush and Co. are telling us deficits are a good thing.

I've found over the years when someone keeps tailoring the situation to suit their immediate needs they cannot be trusted. In simple terms, they are liars.

Quite simply because the US economy is like a mile long train loaded to the gills. Once it gains momentum in a direction it much more difficult to stop the slide and start it back up hill. The economy collapsed as a result of the internet bubble economy. As Greenspan called it back in '98 there was an "irrational sense of exuberence". The economy was a bubble exactly like Japans was in the 80's. The bubble popped, the accounting scandles started and consumer confidence fell. All of these items are strictly out of the control of any presidential administration. All of it technically started during Clinton's second term but he bears no responsibility for the result just as Bush doesn't. Our president does not control the economy, the government has VERY limited influence over monetary policy that CAN have an influence over the market. This influence is in fact not guaranteed and the rate control that the Fed has could be overridden easily by any one of half a dozen multinational financial organizations.

Bush's Tax cut is an attempt to stimulate the economy in the only way he actually has control over. By reducing taxes you put more money into the hands of consumers and as a result spending goes up and the economy can recover. It isn't guaranteed to work but frankly it's his only real influence over the economy. Basic monetary policy dictates that in times of recession the government should deficit spend to stimulate the economy and during economic expansion the government should NOT retain a deficit. Being that we are in a recession the policy should dictate deficet spending, just like during the mid 90's when expansion was heavy the government should eliminate deficit spending.

Over the years I've found that those that don't understand the actual way the game is played have the mistaken belief that the same solution will work for different problems.

 

[apoppin]

rahvin, you are in the wrong thread . . .

The subject has been "moved" . . . please go there to continue the discussion. Thanks.

I began a new topic at Off Topic. Here's the link. I called it It's the economy, stupid.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: apoppin
rahvin, you are in the wrong thread . . .

The subject has been "moved" . . . please go there to continue the discussion. Thanks.

I began a new topic at Off Topic. Here's the link. I called it It's the economy, stupid.

Reach around and unbunch those panties man. They are making you irritable.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: apoppin
rahvin, you are in the wrong thread . . .

The subject has been "moved" . . . please go there to continue the discussion. Thanks.

I began a new topic at Off Topic. Here's the link. I called it It's the economy, stupid.

Reach around and unbunch those panties man. They are making you irritable.

Not at all . . . it seems you didn't notice that this thread was hijacked in your absence . . . and the hijackers agreed to return it (read what you missed) . . . since you started it all over, I just brought you up to date.

Was I too *rough* with you?

I'll be "more tender" next time . . .

 

[Alistar7]

I likethe story of a busload of Iraqis crossing paths with american troops, apparently they were aware we were rationing MREs, so they stopped their bus, and prepared a feast with meat, goat, lamb, chicken, and fresh bread, vegs, and fruits. The people helping to build the water pipeline in Basra is another great story. When the Iraqi people feel SAFE enough to speak ther mind most I've heard are a bit weary of our resolve to finish the job, but hoping we will this time. The CROWDS helping our soldiers and essentially hanging out and BS'ing with them are a good indication of the majority I feel. Reports of Iraqi citizens recieving BASIC first aid, then telling their family and friends it was the most extensive and best medical treatemnt they ever recieved...

also make me feel we will easily win over the hearts of the IRaqi people.

We will rebuild their once great nation, their oil will be put to use for THEIR BENEFIT, they will enjoy their freedom just as much as their prosperity. The immediate $$$$ potential makes them unlike Afghanistan, or even Japan. During WW2 Japan's industrial base was invested in wartime production, and consequently bombed continously. There is already a pipeline in place for all the Iraqi liquid investment capital, you just have to pull the ships up to the offshore oil pumping dock and cash the checks. World class schools for their children, top notch hospitals for the old and sick. Good jobs in a stable propersous economy, nice house, car, the right to live, speak, and think what you wish within reason of course. Yes I can see the reason they wouldn't want to change from the wonderfull lifestyle they enjoy now.

Wait till they are FREE, then they can speak for THEMSELVES...it's been their struggle, their families slaughtered and oppressed, I think the decision should be left up to them.

I think the US should make every effort to capture Saddam alive and place him on the ballot, two times. One for President, the other for public execution......

I forone can't wait to watch CNN as the Iraqi people go into voting booths with the ability to freely and anonymously cast their vote without fear of reprisal.



And we will even send some vote counters from Florida to make sure they get it right....