If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, you may not like this Thread . . .

[Red Dawn]

Keep this in mind, the only images of this Conflict that many of them are getting is from Biased Sources like Al Jeezera who show sites like that Baghdad Market hit by a Failed SAM and declaring it was hit with a US bomb. When they arrive and find the situation to be totally different their moral will go down dramatically

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Keep this in mind, the only images of this Conflict that many of them are getting is from Biased Sources like Al Jeezera who show sites like that Baghdad Market hit by a Failed SAM and declaring it was hit with a US bomb. When they arrive and find the situation to be totally different their moral will go down dramatically

If they arrive.....a ragtag bunch of Jihadist roaming across the desert making their way to Baghdad should make easy targets for the Apaches, Cobras, A-10's, and ohhhh baby....maybe even a MOAB.

 

[SpideyCU]

Originally posted by: CPA
Because in life, it's much easier to be a naysayer and exclaim "I told you so" if things aren't perfect.

 

[LunarRay]

I had a long discussion with an ex girlfriend of My son.. who is from Iran as well as her father (farsi is impossible) that confirmed my recent understanding of the culture of that region.. All be it somewhat differn't regading who runs the country.. Iran.. religious folks after Reza and Sadam after his mentor... the point... The majority are peasant and all are very religious... it is in their genetic makeup.. guess it is why our founders wanted a separation in that area. in any event, the religion REQUIRES the folks to do as the Religious leaders dictate... and they do this as an entry to heaven. Only the educated think about who the Political leader is and all that Saddam picture stuff on buildings and crowds cheering if for our consumption... and staged (no kidding. How, in the face of that, can we hope to convince someone that we are there to ride them of evil... when they are taught that we are evil and Saddam is an Arab who loves them... if they ask about saddam. I am confused... What does our government know about the region that I can't seem to find..? Does the influx of Jihadists not support this notion?
My forte is Business... I see most things as being influenced by economic scenerios... we can give them $ and they will see it our way, for instance... But, (I also teach accounting at the university) a past student who is from Quatar told me that in a country where everyone is rich... economy is a paramount issue... but, not Iraq, Iran, India, Pakistan, Syria and etc.
It just don't make sense.. they do trade sheep and they do eat.. Is religion that powerful??

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: HJD1

It just don't make sense.. they do trade sheep and they do eat.. Is religion that powerful??

YES! It is one of the MOST powerful forces EVER. MOST wars - look at history - have been motivated by religion.

And the Arabs have a much more vivid memory of the CRUSADES which were carried out in their lands. Europe and the Catholic Church just wants to forget their bloody past.

EDIT: IMO, the coalition war planners (almost) completely DISregarded their religion.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: HJD1

It just don't make sense.. they do trade sheep and they do eat.. Is religion that powerful??

YES! It is one of the MOST powerful forces EVER. MOST wars - look at history - have been motivated by religion.

And the Arabs have a much more vivid memory of the CRUSADES which were carried out in their lands. Europe and the Catholic Church just wants to forget their bloody past.

EDIT: IMO, the coalition war planners (almost) completely DISregarded their religion.

So once again the fault lies with Brittan... If Richard had stayed at home we'd not be in this fix... but then Errol Flynn may have simply been a nobody. The Crusades.... I wonder if or how many Iraqi Imam pass that little tid bit along to the folks?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: HJD1

It just don't make sense.. they do trade sheep and they do eat.. Is religion that powerful??

YES! It is one of the MOST powerful forces EVER. MOST wars - look at history - have been motivated by religion.

And the Arabs have a much more vivid memory of the CRUSADES which were carried out in their lands. Europe and the Catholic Church just wants to forget their bloody past.

EDIT: IMO, the coalition war planners (almost) completely DISregarded their religion.

So once again the fault lies with Brittan... If Richard had stayed at home we'd not be in this fix... but then Errol Flynn may have simply been a nobody. The Crusades.... I wonder if or how many Iraqi Imam pass that little tid bit along to the folks?

The "fault" of the crusades lies with the Popes - The "blame" got dumped on Britain (and France!) and other "christian" countries that heeded their call to "free Jerusalem".

Actually the cause of most wars start with (organized) religion. If that could be eliminated, most wars would cease.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Ok, apoppin -

I would argue that practically all wars are fought for economic reasons, and religion is used to justify those reasons and to motivate the troops to fight.

This is not a religious conflict. This war is being fought for several, mostly economic reasons, namely 1) to prevent the proliferation of WMD's which would cause harm to US citizens both physically and economically; 2) To prevent the growth of a regional hegemony that seeks to cut off 10-12% of our oil supply.

Similarly, the call to jihad is cosmetic. It is to Saddam's economic advantage to retain power, and his call to Jihad is to arouse the radicals to rise and fight to defend him. Saddam has a property interest in defending his job. He has a nifty little lifestyle going on, and he will sacrifice the lives of millions to retain it.

Saddam does not give a rat's ass about his faith. If he did, he would not gas his own people... if Islam is all that everybody screams up and down that it is.

 

[Morph]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Keep this in mind, the only images of this Conflict that many of them are getting is from Biased Sources like Al Jeezera who show sites like that Baghdad Market hit by a Failed SAM and declaring it was hit with a US bomb. When they arrive and find the situation to be totally different their moral will go down dramatically

Oh, I'm so glad that you were there to investigate that bombing incident and determine conclusively that it was an Iraqi SAM. We should all feel so much better about it now.

 

[Morph]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

This war is being fought for several, mostly economic reasons, namely 1) to prevent the proliferation of WMD's which would cause harm to US citizens both physically and economically.

Ok, so where are they?

No Sign Yet of Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Morph

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Keep this in mind, the only images of this Conflict that many of them are getting is from Biased Sources like Al Jeezera who show sites like that Baghdad Market hit by a Failed SAM and declaring it was hit with a US bomb. When they arrive and find the situation to be totally different their moral will go down dramatically

Oh, I'm so glad that you were there to investigate that bombing incident and determine conclusively that it was an Iraqi SAM. We should all feel so much better about it now.

Have you seen the hole? It's about 2 feet deep and 4 feet wide. If that had been a bomb of any sort or a cruise missile it would have been a helluva lot larger. People that study and know about such things have analyzed the photos of the crater and determined it was consistent with that of an AA round returning to the earth after being fired and failing to detonate.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Morph

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate This war is being fought for several, mostly economic reasons, namely 1) to prevent the proliferation of WMD's which would cause harm to US citizens both physically and economically.

Ok, so where are they? No Sign Yet of Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction

We are not in Baghdad yet or in the northern territories. Analysts were also kinda wondering why there was no resistance when we were crossing into Iraq. Not only that, but the territory that we have been in has been held by Shiites - not Saddam's buddies. Would he want WMD's to fall into the wrong hands in a rebellion?

Would you care to explain the bio defense gear in the Iraqi hospitals? Why the antidote for the nerve gas? Why keep this stuff around?

All good things to those who wait.

 

[mrbentley]

The Americans and British were doing their best yesterday to suggest that an Iraqi anti-aircraft missile destroyed those dozens of lives, adding that they were "still investigating" the carnage. But the coding is in Western style, not in Arabic. And many of the survivors heard the plane.
Quote:
It can be easily verified and checked by the Americans ? if they choose to do so. It reads: 30003-704ASB 7492. The letter "B" is scratched and could be an "H". This is believed to be the serial number. It is followed by a further code which arms manufacturers usually refer to as the weapon's "Lot" number. It reads: MFR 96214 09.

The piece of metal bearing the codings was retrieved only minutes after the missile exploded on Friday evening, by an old man whose home is only 100 yards from the 6ft crater. Even the Iraqi authorities do not know that it exists.

 

[Loralon]

Originally posted by: mrbentley
The Americans and British were doing their best yesterday to suggest that an Iraqi anti-aircraft missile destroyed those dozens of lives, adding that they were "still investigating" the carnage. But the coding is in Western style, not in Arabic. And many of the survivors heard the plane.
Quote:
It can be easily verified and checked by the Americans ? if they choose to do so. It reads: 30003-704ASB 7492. The letter "B" is scratched and could be an "H". This is believed to be the serial number. It is followed by a further code which arms manufacturers usually refer to as the weapon's "Lot" number. It reads: MFR 96214 09.

The piece of metal bearing the codings was retrieved only minutes after the missile exploded on Friday evening, by an old man whose home is only 100 yards from the 6ft crater. Even the Iraqi authorities do not know that it exists.

I've already posted my conclusions on this event, so I won't repeat myself. I've seen the pictures of the crater: it's elliptical about 5ft long by 2ft wide and maybe 2ft deep on a plain concrete surface maybe 3in thick over a packed earthen sub-surface. I just have one question for you: what bomb in the U.S. inventory would make that kind of crater?

 

[SpideyCU]

I love it.

The war's not going our way! We're failing!
There are no weapons of mass destruction! They were wrong!
etc.
etc.

How many days has the war been going on? I understand your urges to critique (that's a nice word for it), but man, some of you can't even wait, can you? You couldn't hold out for more than a couple of days, huh?

If it's already started this early, I can't wait to see how bad it'll get in the coming weeks.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
Ok, apoppin -

I would argue that practically all wars are fought for economic reasons, and religion is used to justify those reasons and to motivate the troops to fight.

This is not a religious conflict. This war is being fought for several, mostly economic reasons, namely 1) to prevent the proliferation of WMD's which would cause harm to US citizens both physically and economically; 2) To prevent the growth of a regional hegemony that seeks to cut off 10-12% of our oil supply.

Similarly, the call to jihad is cosmetic. It is to Saddam's economic advantage to retain power, and his call to Jihad is to arouse the radicals to rise and fight to defend him. Saddam has a property interest in defending his job. He has a nifty little lifestyle going on, and he will sacrifice the lives of millions to retain it.

MY "worst-case" scenario.

Saddam does not give a rat's ass about his faith. If he did, he would not gas his own people... if Islam is all that everybody screams up and down that it is.

No this is NOT a religious conflict from the US point of view (unless you consider GW's born again views of "crusade"). I was also speaking HISTORICALLY - most past conflicts began from religious differences (INCLUDING the roots of the Vietnam War when France was there).

AND this War is in DANGER of becoming a RELIGIOUS conflict - Islam vs. the "christian" West - we shall see if it remains "cosmetic" (no Saddam isN'T religious anymore than Hitler was Catholic - but they both USED religion to their advantage and religion "played along" with both of these despots to get "advantages").

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: Loralon
I've seen the pictures of the crater: it's elliptical about 5ft long by 2ft wide and maybe 2ft deep on a plain concrete surface maybe 3in thick over a packed earthen sub-surface. I just have one question for you: what bomb in the U.S. inventory would make that kind of crater?

Something very small, like a surface to air missile, a anti-radiation missile, or maybe an artillery shell. A bomb would make a much bigger hole in the ground since its warhead is much bigger.

 

[Morph]

Wow, it's great that we have all these experts on missile blast effects here. Now what is your explanation for the Iraqi guy that has his hands on part of the bomb that's clearly not an Iraqi SAM? Maybe you experts can identify that missile from the markings on it?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Morph
Wow, it's great that we have all these experts on missile blast effects here. Now what is your explanation for the Iraqi guy that has his hands on part of the bomb that's clearly not an Iraqi SAM? Maybe you experts can identify that missile from the markings on it?

War apologists tend to be experts on everything.

 

[JellyBaby]

AND this War is in DANGER of becoming a RELIGIOUS conflict - Islam vs. the "christian" West

Apparently there are only 2 arab nations who don't support terrorism in some fasion, Egypt and I think Jordan. Both of these have fought off Islamic takeovers. Some believe the real intent of this war is to begin eliminating all governments that may potentially fuel Islamic expansion.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

AND this War is in DANGER of becoming a RELIGIOUS conflict - Islam vs. the "christian" West

Apparently there are only 2 arab nations who don't support terrorism in some fasion, Egypt and I think Jordan. Both of these have fought off Islamic takeovers. Some believe the real intent of this war is to begin eliminating all governments that may potentially fuel Islamic expansion.

I believe we are now seeing problems with Jordan. Egypt may not support Terrorism officially but a lot of terrorists come from there . . .

. . . actually none of the nations of Islam support terrorism "officially" . . . I still say it is a RELIGIOUS issue that TRANSENDS the arab nations.

It seems Turkey is the "calmest" of the arab nations (right now).

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: Morph
Wow, it's great that we have all these experts on missile blast effects here. Now what is your explanation for the Iraqi guy that has his hands on part of the bomb that's clearly not an Iraqi SAM? Maybe you experts can identify that missile from the markings on it?

It's amazing how many completely clueless people we have on here who need others to spoon feed them the information and provide links to click on, but I'll be more than glad to help you out.

One thing to keep in mind is that the article gives the impression that if the writing is not in Arabic, then it must not be an Iraqi missile. But since Iraq mostly uses old Soviet equipment, it probably wouldn't have arabic writing on it.

If you noticed, I said that my guesses are that it looks like a surface to air missile, a anti-radiation missile, or maybe an artillery shell. I didn't definitively state that it was an Iraqi surface to air missile, so don't even try to imply that I did.

Here's what a crater made by a bomb looks like:

http://jim.rees.org/pcd10/57.jpg

Here's another, this one by a 1,000 lb. bomb.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/247infantry/images/swimbomb2.jpg

and another:

http://www.tallcomanche.org/Comanche_Bomb_Crater_Swimming_from_Holcombe.jpg

And here's one that's still there from WW2:

http://www.nymcam.free-online.co.uk/111501cc.jpg

Do you see the similarities? A bomb's warhead is usually 500-2,000 lbs. They make a big hole in the ground.

A 105mm artillery shell's warhead us about 30-35 lbs. It will make a smaller hole in the ground.

Anti-radiation missiles like the HARM have a warhead of about 140 lbs.

SAMs come in all sizes, from man portable missiles with 3 lb warheads to large missiles with 500+ lb warheads. Since the crater is so small I'd imagine that it's not one of the very large ones.

Just using a little common sense goes a long way in looking for the truth. I cannot say exactly which model of weapon caused the damage, but from looking at the amount of damage, common sense tells me that it wasn't caused by a bullet or hand grenade, it's not from a man portable sam, and it's not from a 2,000 lb bomb. Artillery shells, mid sized SAMS and ARMS would be a good start.

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: apoppin

War apologists tend to be experts on everything.

And as we all already know, pacifists aren't experts on anything.

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: apoppin
.

It seems Turkey is the "calmest" of the arab nations (right now).

As most well informed people know, Turkey is not an Arab nation.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Marshallj

Originally posted by: apoppin

War apologists tend to be experts on everything.

And as we all already know, pacifists aren't experts on anything.

touche