If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, you may not like this Thread . . .

[apoppin]

If you want a more "world view",

WELCOME!



It occured to me while watching ABC this AM that there are NO Iraqi refugees!

In fact there was a featured report by David Wright that there was a major flow of Iraqis (mostly younger men) between Jordan and Iraq - RETURNING to Baghdad. The sentiment was, We hate Saddam BUT will defend our country to the death. :Q

The report mentioned the singing of what a "fine thing it is to be martyrd in the homeland". These people generally HAVE GOOD JOBS and FAMILIES in Jordan! Most of them are on Iraq's long "waiting list" to return - the embassy is understaffed to process their requests.

Damn! These people LOVE their country and HATE US (all the while despising their own leaders).

Has the coalition underestimated their DETERMINATION to DIE rather than SURRENDER? And now it is believed that thousands of other Islamic fighters are joining them to go as soldiers and suicide bombers.

Now, we must remember they are HUMAN BEINGS, not ignorant "animals". They think and feel as we do EXCEPT as shaped by their RELIGON and CULTURE.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, Al-Jazeera rules the air waves?whether the Pentagon likes it or not
(excellent read! from MSNBC.com)

Is this war even remotely "winable"?






EDIT: Sorry about my poor choice of topic's title . . . of course, EVERYONE is welcome!

On second thought, I edited the title . . . should I have stuck with my "working title"?

 

[CPA]

4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: apoppin
If you want a more "world view",

WELCOME!



It occured to me while watching ABC this AM that there are NO Iraqi refugees!

In fact there was a featured report by David Wright that there was a major flow of Iraqis (mostly younger men) between Jordan and Iraq - RETURNING to Baghdad. The sentiment was, We hate Saddam BUT will defend our country to the death. :Q

The report mentioned the singing of what a "fine thing it is to be martyrd in the homeland". These people generally HAVE GOOD JOBS and FAMILIES in Jordan! Most of them are on Iraq's long "waiting list" to return - the embassy is understaffed to process their requests.

Damn! These people LOVE their country and HATE US (all the while despising their own leaders).

Has the coalition underestimated their DETERMINATION to DIE rather than SURRENDER? And now it is believed that thousands of other Islamic fighters are joining them to go as soldiers and suicide bombers.

Now, we must remember they are HUMAN BEINGS, not ignorant "animals". They think and feel as we do EXCEPT as shaped by their RELIGON and CULTURE.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, Al-Jazeera rules the [air
(excellent read! from MSNBC.com)

Is this war even remotely "winable"?

I wonder how many of those returning Iraqi's are working for the Coalition and I wonder how many will be used as Human Waves like the ones the Iraqi's used in the Iran/Iraq war (if they are killed by the Baath party first)?

 

[shiner]

Good grief...another The Sky is Falling post by apoppin.

Why are there no mass movements of refugees? Well maybe it's because the people aren't being allowed to leave the cities. Maybe it's because the Fedayeen are taking women and children from their homes and telling the men they MUST fight or their loved ones will be executed. The people of Iraq have no great love for Saddam, they are just living in fear right now and can't do much about it.

Why is it that you seem to want the U.S. to lose this war? Nearly every post you make is about the doom and gloom of this war. How the U.S. is losing or how the war has had some sort of "major setback" because we aren't in control of Baghdad yet. Do you even have the slightest clue about how a military operation works or how nasty a war can be? Do you realize that this war has barely begun and we are already 50 miles from the main objective? War is not something you fire up on your X-Box and can walk away all smug because you won it two hours later. War is a long process, hell the Gulf War took 44 days and it wasn't nearly as difficult as this one will be. This time we are taking out the bad guys that lead a country not just kicking them out of a country they invaded. Thousands of Islamic volunteers have come to Iraq? Hardly?.I have seen reports of a few dozen coming across, but it's not nearly in the thousands. Don't worry about those that have come to Iraq either, they will be killed. The bonus to that is that it causes there to be fewer suicide bombers and fundamentalist wackos in the long run.

You simply don't understand what is going on at all. Hell I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post because you will either ignore everything I have said or you will try to twist it to mean something it doesn't. I don't know why you are the way you are, but it must really be a sad life that you live.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Good grief...another The Sky is Falling post by apoppin.

Why are there no mass movements of refugees? Well maybe it's because the people aren't being allowed to leave the cities. Maybe it's because the Fedayeen are taking women and children from their homes and telling the men they MUST fight or their loved ones will be executed. The people of Iraq have no great love for Saddam, they are just living in fear right now and can't do much about it.

Why is it that you seem to want the U.S. to lose this war? Nearly every post you make is about the doom and gloom of this war. How the U.S. is losing or how the war has had some sort of "major setback" because we aren't in control of Baghdad yet. Do you even have the slightest clue about how a military operation works or how nasty a war can be? Do you realize that this war has barely begun and we are already 50 miles from the main objective? War is not something you fire up on your X-Box and can walk away all smug because you won it two hours later. War is a long process, hell the Gulf War took 44 days and it wasn't nearly as difficult as this one will be. This time we are taking out the bad guys that lead a country not just kicking them out of a country they invaded. Thousands of Islamic volunteers have come to Iraq? Hardly?.I have seen reports of a few dozen coming across, but it's not nearly in the thousands. Don't worry about those that have come to Iraq either, they will be killed. The bonus to that is that it causes there to be fewer suicide bombers and fundamentalist wackos in the long run.

You simply don't understand what is going on at all. Hell I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post because you will either ignore everything I have said or you will try to twist it to mean something it doesn't. I don't know why you are the way you are, but it must really be a sad life that you live.

Because in life, it's much easier to be a naysayer and exclaim "I told you so" if things aren't perfect.

 

[ub4me]

I also watched it from BBC, and I was suprised.
This is the proof that Bush Administration and Fox have been propagandizing us.
"They are oppressed by an evil dictator, so we need to deliver poor Iraqi people from the evil man." --> PROVEN WRONG!

If I were them, and if an evil dictator ruled United States, if Russia invaded to deliver us from him, then at the time if I stayed in Canada, I would not come back to my country to fight against Russian soidiers who were supposed to give us freedom.
Would you?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: apoppin
MOST IMPORTANTLY, Al-Jazeera rules the [air
(excellent read! from MSNBC.com)

Is this war even remotely "winable"?

I wonder how many of those returning Iraqi's are working for the Coalition and I wonder how many will be used as Human Waves like the ones the Iraqi's used in the Iran/Iraq war (if they are killed by the Baath party first)?

I wish your scenario was even remotely possible. These people all know each other . . . they are mostly young Iraqi arabs that are glad (because of their religious convictions) to be used as a shield or "whatever" as a martyr in the resistance.

As to the 4,000 being a "small" number, the war is only in its 2nd week. As the Islamic world gets "roused" their numbers will explode (stupid pun intended).

 

[boggsie]

Originally posted by: apoppin
If you want a more "world view",

WELCOME!



It occured to me while watching ABC this AM that there are NO Iraqi refugees!

In fact there was a featured report by David Wright that there was a major flow of Iraqis (mostly younger men) between Jordan and Iraq - RETURNING to Baghdad. The sentiment was, We hate Saddam BUT will defend our country to the death. :Q

The report mentioned the singing of what a "fine thing it is to be martyrd in the homeland". These people generally HAVE GOOD JOBS and FAMILIES in Jordan! Most of them are on Iraq's long "waiting list" to return - the embassy is understaffed to process their requests.

Damn! These people LOVE their country and HATE US (all the while despising their own leaders).

Has the coalition underestimated their DETERMINATION to DIE rather than SURRENDER? And now it is believed that thousands of other Islamic fighters are joining them to go as soldiers and suicide bombers.

Now, we must remember they are HUMAN BEINGS, not ignorant "animals". They think and feel as we do EXCEPT as shaped by their RELIGON and CULTURE.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, Al-Jazeera rules the [air
(excellent read! from MSNBC.com)

Is this war even remotely "winable"?

Reading the message brought to mind the following:

The Kurds and the Turks are ready to go at it _NOW_.

Many of the religious groups within the border are always ready to 'go' at a moments notice, against one another, to the death ... and have been this way for centuries maybe thousands of years. It was my impression that Saddam was not specifically targeted in GW1 (1991), because he had some measure of control over IRAQ and as crazy as he was, actually served as a stabilizing force in the region.

1) Saddam is a lunitic and is developing WMD and will sell them to terrorists. Heck, he'd probably give them away if he was reasonably sure that they could be properly used against the western world.
2) The people of IRAQ must accept some level of culpability, because as ruthless as he is, they permit his continued rule.

I'm still of the opinion that the coailition is going to have a very, very difficult time pulling this off, without simply pulling back, pounding everything flat with carpetbombing and helping those that remain rebuild and use all of the oil money to help the people, as opposed to rule over them with an iron fist.

 

[yowolabi]

I've seen some people leaving out of Basra(sic), but I think that's because heavy fighting was going on at the time in the city, and they were just trying to get out of the line of fire.

I think that most Iraqi people recognize that our objective in coming there isn't to liberate them, and knowing that, they have no more reason to love us than to love Saddam. We're just another entity that are using them as pawns to futher our own interests.

If winning this war means to eliminate Saddam's regime, then we will eventually win. That doesn't mean that the new regime will be any friendlier to us than Saddam's was. If we truly "liberate" them and let them elect the leaders they want this is likely to happen. The alternative is us forcing a leader on them, which would belie our stated objectives, and which would lead to a revolt the second we stopped backing up our installed leader with force.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Good grief...another The Sky is Falling post by apoppin.

Why are there no mass movements of refugees? Well maybe it's because the people aren't being allowed to leave the cities. Maybe it's because the Fedayeen are taking women and children from their homes and telling the men they MUST fight or their loved ones will be executed. The people of Iraq have no great love for Saddam, they are just living in fear right now and can't do much about it.

Why is it that you seem to want the U.S. to lose this war? Nearly every post you make is about the doom and gloom of this war. How the U.S. is losing or how the war has had some sort of "major setback" because we aren't in control of Baghdad yet. Do you even have the slightest clue about how a military operation works or how nasty a war can be? Do you realize that this war has barely begun and we are already 50 miles from the main objective? War is not something you fire up on your X-Box and can walk away all smug because you won it two hours later. War is a long process, hell the Gulf War took 44 days and it wasn't nearly as difficult as this one will be. This time we are taking out the bad guys that lead a country not just kicking them out of a country they invaded. Thousands of Islamic volunteers have come to Iraq? Hardly?.I have seen reports of a few dozen coming across, but it's not nearly in the thousands. Don't worry about those that have come to Iraq either, they will be killed. The bonus to that is that it causes there to be fewer suicide bombers and fundamentalist wackos in the long run.

You simply don't understand what is going on at all. Hell I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post because you will either ignore everything I have said or you will try to twist it to mean something it doesn't. I don't know why you are the way you are, but it must really be a sad life that you live.

I guess you didn't read even the topic's title. How can you respond to anything I posted?

I said before I don't respect you and I won't bother to respond to you further as you have no debating skills - just ridicule!

However, I will state MY position for the rest of the topic readers:


I do support our troops. I want them all HOME SAFETLY and out of this ridiculous and illegal invasion of Iraq.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Good grief...another The Sky is Falling post by apoppin.

Why are there no mass movements of refugees? Well maybe it's because the people aren't being allowed to leave the cities. Maybe it's because the Fedayeen are taking women and children from their homes and telling the men they MUST fight or their loved ones will be executed. The people of Iraq have no great love for Saddam, they are just living in fear right now and can't do much about it.

Why is it that you seem to want the U.S. to lose this war? Nearly every post you make is about the doom and gloom of this war. How the U.S. is losing or how the war has had some sort of "major setback" because we aren't in control of Baghdad yet. Do you even have the slightest clue about how a military operation works or how nasty a war can be? Do you realize that this war has barely begun and we are already 50 miles from the main objective? War is not something you fire up on your X-Box and can walk away all smug because you won it two hours later. War is a long process, hell the Gulf War took 44 days and it wasn't nearly as difficult as this one will be. This time we are taking out the bad guys that lead a country not just kicking them out of a country they invaded. Thousands of Islamic volunteers have come to Iraq? Hardly?.I have seen reports of a few dozen coming across, but it's not nearly in the thousands. Don't worry about those that have come to Iraq either, they will be killed. The bonus to that is that it causes there to be fewer suicide bombers and fundamentalist wackos in the long run.

You simply don't understand what is going on at all. Hell I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post because you will either ignore everything I have said or you will try to twist it to mean something it doesn't. I don't know why you are the way you are, but it must really be a sad life that you live.

I guess you didn't read even the topic's title. How can you respond to anything I posted?

I said before I don't respect you and I won't bother to respond to you further as you have no debating skills - just ridicule!

However, I will state MY position for the rest of the topic readers:


I do support our troops. I want them all HOME SAFETLY and out of this ridiculous and illegal invasion of Iraq.

Ummm hmmm....why is it that you write off everyone who disagrees with you as having "no debating skills"

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Good grief...another The Sky is Falling post by apoppin.

You simply don't understand what is going on at all. Hell I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post because you will either ignore everything I have said or you will try to twist it to mean something it doesn't. I don't know why you are the way you are, but it must really be a sad life that you live.

I guess you didn't read even the topic's title. How can you respond to anything I posted?

I said before I don't respect you and I won't bother to respond to you further as you have no debating skills - just ridicule!

However, I will state MY position for the rest of the topic readers:


I do support our troops. I want them all HOME SAFETLY and out of this ridiculous and illegal invasion of Iraq.

Ummm hmmm....why is it that you write off everyone who disagrees with you as having "no debating skills"

No, I am especially singling you out - maybe you forget I already know you from OT - as having a penchant for twisting and adding words to what I say; ignoring any point I am attempting to make; all the time RIDICULING your debating opponent as "clueless".


I am just as "patriotic" as you or any other US citizen that loves and appreciates our freedoms - especially to speak uninterrupted by ridicule. . . . And now I am done explaining to you any further.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Good grief...another The Sky is Falling post by apoppin.

You simply don't understand what is going on at all. Hell I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post because you will either ignore everything I have said or you will try to twist it to mean something it doesn't. I don't know why you are the way you are, but it must really be a sad life that you live.

I guess you didn't read even the topic's title. How can you respond to anything I posted?

I said before I don't respect you and I won't bother to respond to you further as you have no debating skills - just ridicule!

However, I will state MY position for the rest of the topic readers:


I do support our troops. I want them all HOME SAFETLY and out of this ridiculous and illegal invasion of Iraq.

Ummm hmmm....why is it that you write off everyone who disagrees with you as having "no debating skills"

No, I am especially singling you out - maybe you forget I already know you from OT - as having a penchant for twisting and adding words to what I say; ignoring any point I am attempting to make; all the time RIDICULING your debating opponent as "clueless".


I am just as "patriotic" as you or any other US citizen that loves and appreciates our freedoms - especially to speak uninterrupted by ridicule. . . . And now I am done explaining to you any further.

You're done with me? Ohhhh nooooooo!! I've tried talking to you. I've tried laying out facts to you. Time and time again you ignore anything that someone with an opposing view has to say. Anytime someone presents you with a fact you ignore it and then jump to a different point.

Your statement "as having a penchant for twisting and adding words to what I say; ignoring any point I am attempting to make;" has to be the biggest bit of hypocrisy I have ever seen in ATOT. That's saying a lot to because I remember Texmaster.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: ub4me
I also watched it from BBC, and I was suprised.
This is the proof that Bush Administration and Fox have been propagandizing us.
"They are oppressed by an evil dictator, so we need to deliver poor Iraqi people from the evil man." --> PROVEN WRONG!

If I were them, and if an evil dictator ruled United States, if Russia invaded to deliver us from him, then at the time if I stayed in Canada, I would not come back to my country to fight against Russian soidiers who were supposed to give us freedom.
Would you?

very simplistic view, but since we are also dealing with what is perceived by many muslims as a religious war, the oppression of saddam is outweighed by the fact that jews and christians are attacking Iraq.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: ub4me
I also watched it from BBC, and I was suprised.
This is the proof that Bush Administration and Fox have been propagandizing us.
"They are oppressed by an evil dictator, so we need to deliver poor Iraqi people from the evil man." --> PROVEN WRONG!

If I were them, and if an evil dictator ruled United States, if Russia invaded to deliver us from him, then at the time if I stayed in Canada, I would not come back to my country to fight against Russian soidiers who were supposed to give us freedom.
Would you?

very simplistic view, but since we are also dealing with what is perceived by many muslims as a religious war, the oppression of saddam is outweighed by the fact that jews and christians are attacking Iraq.

Good point. I don't think very many Americans see the religious side of things. I know I really don't since religion is but a distant thought in my life. Couple that with the years of and years of anti-West propaganda fed to these people through state-run TV and repression and there is a general fear of the unknown of what the U.S. really has planned for Iraq.

NPR has interviewed a couple of Iraqi exiles and both of them state that there is no flow of refugees. They feel they need to stay and defend their country. Or, another opinion could be they realize the U.S. isn't trying to kill them but to rid them of Saddam and our weapons have proven to be very accurate and causing very few civilian casualties so they may actually feel safer in their own homes.

 

[exp]

If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, please SKIP this Thread . . .

If you want a more "world view",

WELCOME!

If you are trying to portray yourself as some kind of open-minded purveyor of the "world view" then it would be probably be wise *not* to attempt to exclude those with conflicting viewpoints from your thread.

Just a thought.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: yowolabi
I've seen some people leaving out of Basra(sic), but I think that's because heavy fighting was going on at the time in the city, and they were just trying to get out of the line of fire.

Getting mortared and gunned down by their own soldiers will probably put a bit of a damper on anymore leaving.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: exp

If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, please SKIP this Thread . . .

If you want a more "world view",

WELCOME!

If you are trying to portray yourself as some kind of open-minded purveyor of the "world view" then it would be probably be wise *not* to attempt to exclude those with conflicting viewpoints from your thread.

Just a thought.

Thanks. Actually the topic's title is a cheap "gimmick". It was my "working title" and I didn't change it before posting.

I think it's a little late to change it now - but I do apologize for it's somewhat inflammatory style . . . However, DONT worry, NOTHING will keep those who disagree with me out of this thread . . . actually they are also "welcome".

I did pick one person that I won't debate with - but that is my choice based on our past discussions - I just hate being ridiculed "as clueless" every time I state my opinion. He is still VERY welcome in THREAD to give HIS VIEWS for OTHERS to reply to . . . just pleas excuse me from any further discussion with him.

and I'll edit the first post.

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: CPA
4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: CPA
4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

YET How "old" is this war?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: CPA
4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

YET How "old" is this war?

But how effective can these people be? And when faced with the might of the coalition bearing down on them, how many will actually fight?

And, the latest counts are over 8,000 Iraqi POWs in custody and rising.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: CPA
4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

YET How "old" is this war?

But how effective can these people be? And when faced with the might of the coalition bearing down on them, how many will actually fight?

And, the latest counts are over 8,000 Iraqi POWs in custody and rising.

I think the real concern is the guerrilla tactics of the Iraqis - especially the suicide bombers and those who use civilians for "cover".

Remember, we are having a hard time with these tactics in the villages - not to mention Basara - and we have not even begun to do this in Baghdad where our Coalition leaders admit it will be the "fiercest fighting yet".

How effective will they be? . . . we'll see (and I HOPE they will NOT be effective against our troops).

EDIT: We could have a MILLION POWs (these are MOSTLY the one who DON'T WANT to FIGHT) . . . it's just more mouths for us to feed . . . it's the ones that DON'T surrender - the ones WHO FIGHT TO THE DEATH THAT ARE REALLY DANGEROUS. And how many of these POWs have infectious diseases?

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: CPA 4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

YET How "old" is this war?

ln all fairness, many of those seeking to return are fanatics from other countries. Many are not even Iraqi. There are a lot of Saudis and Iranians - very few loyal to Saddam who just want to mix it up with America.

There is very little outflow of refugees because Saddam's loyalists have been gunning down civilians that have been trying to flee Basra. That has a real deterrent effect. Saddam does like his human shields.

To characterize this as loyalty is misguided. Mnay in the Arab world don't think this will last too long, so I'm not sure your "How old is this war?" argument really holds water.

The way to win this war is to lay siege to Baghdad. House to house combat will not happen for a long time.

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: ub4me
If I were them, and if an evil dictator ruled United States, if Russia invaded to deliver us from him, then at the time if I stayed in Canada, I would not come back to my country to fight against Russian soidiers who were supposed to give us freedom.
Would you?

That is because you're a coward, and people like you tend to flee your homeland instead of defending it.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: CPA 4,000 men returning from the hundreds of thousands who left during Saddam's reign does not constitute a major flow back to Iraq.

YET How "old" is this war?

ln all fairness, many of those seeking to return are fanatics from other countries. Many are not even Iraqi. There are a lot of Saudis and Iranians - very few loyal to Saddam who just want to mix it up with America.

There is very little outflow of refugees because Saddam's loyalists have been gunning down civilians that have been trying to flee Basra. That has a real deterrent effect. Saddam does like his human shields.

To characterize this as loyalty is misguided. Mnay in the Arab world don't think this will last too long, so I'm not sure your "How old is this war?" argument really holds water.

The way to win this war is to lay siege to Baghdad. House to house combat will not happen for a long time.

Careful or you'll end up getting labeled as having "no debating skills" and apoppin won't talk to you anymore. Oh the pain, the agony, the...the....never mind it was just gas.