Have you ever had to sign multi-million dollar contracts and have legal departments on both sides involved? I work in the networking/security/telecomm business and these contracts are pretty big in terms of commitments, on both sides.
NEVER has an e-mail been acceptable for final signing. Hand signed and delivered or fax. Same with employment, specifically gubment. It has to be legally binding with no "outs".
-edit-
To add - if you don't see the power of the fax then you haven't been in business. It carries much more weight than an E-mail. Mailed documents carry even more weight.
As pointed out by a few here they are easy to track, simple to use, and also a big one very legal (Stand up in court).
"faxes just don't work with each other" ??? You are doing it. Faxs have a basic standard, it is meant so they all work together.
Being this is for Fed Gov jobs the legal part is big. We have people file complaints all the time.
1 time a idiot clicked the NO box to the question, are you a US Citizen. When he did not make the CERT he filed a complaint. Or someone that filed a complaint as they did not make the CERT after applying to a job that was for current State Dept employees only and clicked the box that said NO I am not a current... and so on.
As you saw above. Someone was complaining about how long some applications are. Again someone sued and this was out legal way out of their complaint.
We have to follow the law and court order, that is why our instructions are VERY clear and we usually instruct them twice and even in bold red lettering for some instructions.
The disadvantages of email over faxes in the business world.
1. More secure than email as email can be hacked, headers changed, someone in the office leaves the email client opened on the computer. In other words there is a paper trail.
2. So what when your dealing in the millions 50 bucks is nothing.
3. Your email account has an admin that cost more than a toner cartridge.
4. Your fax goes exactly where you want provided they supply the correct number.
5. Legal document that stands up in court.
6. Fax machines all work on the same standard.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Why stop there? The difference between then/than, the difference between there/their... But he said that his was an entry level position, so give him a break. i.e. he's just a peon within government bureaucracy with an over-inflated sense of importance. He gets to belittle people who ask a simple question that would be answered much differently outside his archaic, inefficient system.
Sadly though, reading this thread gave me perfect understanding of why our government agencies are often very inefficient.
From a business point of view:
1 - MORE secure, since you don't have to worry about idiots with spyware-infested computers leaking the information all over the web. The only people who see a fax are YOUR employees.
2 - Yeah, you already have dozens of phone lines. You're a business.
3 - Computers require a full-time IT guy and constant repairs
4 - I'm almost positive our fax machine allows you to fax multiple people. Not sure if it's simultaneous, since I haven't used it.
5 - Hard copies are an advantage in business. Plus, unlike hard copies from email, faxes don't give you pages of ads, headers, and other superfluous information that your secretary doesn't know how to remove from an email printout
6 - Much more reliable. Your fax machine doesn't get viruses, doesn't crash, doesn't require IT support, doesn't have file incompatibility issues, and I don't know where you got the crazy idea that some faxes "just don't work with each other". If anything this is much more of a problem with computers -- Hello Apple and PC!
Businesses will use faxes for decades to come, but yes, they are annoying for regular people who can use computers. Maybe that's why computers can send faxes these days.
I assume it won't count if it is directly related to the field you are applying for. Last fall I went through an interview with a government agency and took some flack for roughly 2 semesters that had some poor grades (out of 200+ credits). It made for a tense interview on my part, but I still got an offer.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
You really have an over-inflated sense of importance. The last time I was hired, the conversation on the phone went like this. "Could you fax over your transcripts?" "Well, I don't have a fax machine at my house, because I don't have a land line. I only have a cell phone. But I could drive over to Staples and send it, that'd be no problem at all. Or, if you like, since you're only 10 minutes further away than Staples, I could just run it over to you myself. If you'd like to view it immediately, I could send you a scanned version of all these documents." "Oh, you have a scanner? Just attach it in an email to <recipient>. That would be just fine. I wouldn't need a faxed version."
My email: "Here are my transcripts. I didn't know what software you would use to view it, so I prepared an RTF version as well as a pdf version."
Government version:
You stamping your feet on the floor, having a temper tantrum. "No no no no. You must send it to me by fax. Those are the government rules, don't you know anything. You are a moron. You are obviously unqualified. I want a fax. And, I want an oompa loompa. Get me an oompa loompa. <stomp stomp stomp stomp>"
StinkyPinky
Diamond Member
- Jul 6, 2002
- 6,976
- 1,276
- 126
I'm not disputing that faxes have more legal meaning than email. The question I'm asking is why?? The answer, imo, is because of their age. THey've been around for 30 years. Give it another 10 years and imo emails will have similar legal power than faxes. Old fart politicians are always slow to change.
Anyway, really serious legal stuff should be either done in person or at least over snail mail. If you're doing 50 million dollar stuff over fax that's just flat out strange.
And to the people above, I can't say I agree that fax is more secure than email. Any half decent business is going to have firewalls and anti-virus to prevent spoofing, hacking etc. Having a confidential fax sitting in the tray for hours, or sitting in the buffer because there's no paper is not exactly secure.
Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
- 34,543
- 651
- 126
You don't work in a legal, government or corporate environment? You know there are fax machines that receive faxes electronically and scan them, so you don't have to deal with paper. A phone line is much more secure than network connection. Ever hear a company's fax line getting hacked? It will be a lot longer than 10 years before you see fax going away.
And $50 million deals? For large corporations, that's not a lot of money and the faxing of legal papers, purchase order, etc happens routinely.
StinkyPinky
Diamond Member
- Jul 6, 2002
- 6,976
- 1,276
- 126
Still can't grasp it. How is it more secure? A phone line is extremely easy to hack, the reason you don't have about it is email is used far more often.
To be honest, I'm surprised faxes are considered legal documents and I suspect it's more to do with convienience than security. Shit, I can go to our office fax, change its settings, and make it look like it came from anywhere in the world. How is that secure?
Just out of interest, are you guys Network Engineers? Dunno about your setup, but I can route a fax anywhere I want.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
I agree wholeheartedly that fax is more secure. But, look at the situation. You're on the phone with someone, talking to them. And, they say, "I'll send it to you as an email attachment, you'll have it in 20 seconds." What's "unsecure" about that?? Where is there any compromise in security? You can have the attachment in front of you without even disconnecting from the phone call. I can't even count the number of times I've conducted business this way with people.
"Okay, I just sent it; it should be in your inbox in a moment." "Here, let me refresh. Okay, I've got it. Hang on a second. Okay, everything looks fine. Thank you." "You're welcome."
"Okay, I just sent it; it should be in your inbox in a moment." "Here, let me refresh. Okay, I've got it. Hang on a second. Okay, everything looks fine. Thank you." "You're welcome."
Red Squirrel
No Lifer
Fax? Why do so many companies insist on using such old technology? The whole "paper record" thing is BS, considering it can be forged just as easily as email.
Domain registrars are bad for that too, like network solutions wants a domain owner to fax this form just to get an authentication code. wtf is that about?
Whenver I get a ticket stating fax is not working I feel like putting in the solution "use email" and close the ticket.
Domain registrars are bad for that too, like network solutions wants a domain owner to fax this form just to get an authentication code. wtf is that about?
Whenver I get a ticket stating fax is not working I feel like putting in the solution "use email" and close the ticket.
Hi. Network security architect speaking. Call detail records from the sender and receiver (switch records that are stored and most times printed out for a paper record) would show where it came from and caller ID is not something people use as identity, that's arbitrary and doesn't mean anything.
A FAX traverses PSTN be it packetized or not. It still adheres to the record keeping of the PSTN.
Red Squirrel
No Lifer
Pretty much, and fax is also sent over unencrypted channels. Email goes through all sorts of mediums through high secure facilities, making it rather unlikely that someone can tap into it. The odds of this are very slim (same with fax, mind you).
In a way fax is actually worse, as the copy is in more places:
- computer
- possibly been sent through email (ex: user did it at home and emailed at work to fax it)
- fax machine at both ends (now there's 2 copies)
- garbage/recycling
Babbles
Diamond Member
- Jan 4, 2001
- 8,253
- 14
- 81
You can think you whatever you may wish, but I promise you billion dollar corporations rely on faxes because they are secure.
I worked in the pharmaceutical research industry. While email is indeed used for the vast majority of correspondence when it came to signing legal documents and/or transmitting sensitive information faxes are the norm. Not 100% of the time, but in my experiences more often than not. Hell sometimes we even burned data on a CD and mailed it. Sounds bizarre, but if somebody got a hold of that data via the mail . . . well postal fraud is a major crime and if it was intercepted it would be physically missing or otherwise there would be evidence of tampering. People can sniff email with the sender and recipient being none the wiser.
I think companies would prefer to use email, but the security is just not there.
Additionally in my experience with pharmaceutical research we have to follow certain FDA guidelines, which are effectively codified as law in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and electronic data is regulated under 21 CFR Part 11. In fact making "Part 11" compliant systems is a major deal.
Red Squirrel
No Lifer
It's sad that companies still want to rely on super old crummy technology. There are plenty of ways to secure email such as SSL (if both partys just log to same server) or PGP style encryption.
Have you seen the financial state that our country is in right now? Does it surprise you?
Our government has become horribly inefficient. We need to cut out the dead wood, and it sounds like Marlin is part of it.
Red Squirrel
No Lifer
How is fax more secure? It's sent unencrypted the same way email is. All someone needs to do is hookup a fax machine to any taped line and get the fax (with possibly other equipment involved, but easier then taping through fiber - ethernet within the building is rarely accessible and exits as fiber).
Wow. Where to begin. . .
First, for someone who is so intent on everything being perfect, you spelled conservative wrong in your signature (even though it's shown multiple time in the image you link to) and your excerpt from your posting didn't use the word MUST so it isn't really odd to ask the question.
Also, I have worked in the government sector and sent many a piece of grant paperwork via e-mail.
Fax is ridiculous, I just use e-fax for people who are unwilling to be reasonable.
On my last job I just e-mailed the documents to HR, they printed them off and filed them away, same with my student loan request.
First, for someone who is so intent on everything being perfect, you spelled conservative wrong in your signature (even though it's shown multiple time in the image you link to) and your excerpt from your posting didn't use the word MUST so it isn't really odd to ask the question.
Also, I have worked in the government sector and sent many a piece of grant paperwork via e-mail.
Fax is ridiculous, I just use e-fax for people who are unwilling to be reasonable.
On my last job I just e-mailed the documents to HR, they printed them off and filed them away, same with my student loan request.
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