If possible: Forced birth control for those on welfare to stop the next generation of poor

[Jhhnn]

WOW. Yep the shit, piss, cum, garbage covered place where people went to smoke crack and piss or shit because it was easier than walking up 3 flights of stairs was a fucking godsend for a 13 years old kid. I only know what I know, you only know what others have told you. You can make the claim that its not universal but until you actually go out and see for yourself... Is it different all these years later, might be, but I still see the same thing when I pass by the old projects, kids having kids and those kids smoking, drinking and filthy. You see what you want, especially when you only look from a distance.

How do you know where I've been? Oh, wait... you presume to know.

 

[SNC]

You seem to be under the impression that saying 'don't bring a child into this world you can't afford' is a form of birth control. Let me tell you straight up, it is not. I have a step child that I helped raise since she was 12 (she is 22 now). We taught her to be responsible, we taught her about birth control and STIs (her mother is a nurse, she has flipcharts!), we even paid for her to get the 5 year implant one when we first suspected she was sexually active. Then on her 18th birthday she had it taken out (without telling us) because 'she didn't like it' (which turned out was because her boyfriend was catholic and thought it was a sin). About 6 months later she was pregnant, decided that despite her mom's advice that she couldn't live with herself if she had an abortion (because she wanted to stay with the catholic father), and then about 3 months after the baby was born the father left her. So, now she has a GED, no job experience, and can't find a job that would actually pay enough to cover childcare. What do you do in this situation? Toss her out on the street with a newborn child?

This is what we are saying about punishing the grandchildren. If we told her to get out and support herself we are also telling our grandchild to suffer hunger and poverty.

There are some holes in your story. There are not many 19 year olds who are still in school, so not sure why she had to get a GED if she got pregnant at 18.5 years old. Unless of course she had already dropped out before meeting the wonderful Catholic boy. And if that's the case then responsibility was not her strong suit to begin with. On top of that she performed a medical procedure on herself because some right wing whack job she just meet convinced her that everything she was thought up to that point was wrong. The red flag should have popped up in her head when the good Catholic boy was OK with having sex out of wedlock but not OK with blocking his little swimmers. even the good Lord himself is onboard with not having a kid until your ready to commit. (back in the day abstinence was the only form of BC) But EVEN with the IUD (I assume you are referring to Mirena) having unprotected sex with an untested partner is a death wish. But it seems that you would prefer it your way than to mine. I made it perfectly clear to my kids, there was apparently some wiggle room in what your kid thought you meant. Or she knew that whatever she did you would support her. If your saying that you would want this to happen to her if she had it to do all over, you're a sick puppy. If you would like her to have another chance at lift unencumbered by a lifelong obligation made because of a bad choice she made than you and I wish the same for out kids. Your daughter made choices, these things were not done to her, she made the choice to drop out, have unprotected sex with a blatant hypocrite, remove what little protection she had in that situation, and then to carry to term and not give it up for adoption to a family that could have provided the baby and her a better chance at life. You are basically making my argument for me.

 

[SNC]

Thank goodness there were people kind enough to let you use their couches. Imagine a world where everyone chose to just let their fellow humans flounder because judgement comes before kindness.

What a interesting take. It was never really because of their goodness, it was because the were passed out and didn't lock the door. You guys are trying to make it out like its a fucking leave it to beaver episode. You might imagine some of the things I was asked to do for a place to sleep at night. Those nights I sleep under the stairs.

 

[SNC]

How do you know where I've been? Oh, wait... you presume to know.

I know it isn't where I was, that's for sure. But please enlighten me.

 

[Puffnstuff]

What a interesting take. It was never really because of their goodness, it was because the were passed out and didn't lock the door. You guys are trying to make it out like its a fucking leave it to beaver episode. You might imagine some of the things I was asked to do for a place to sleep at night. Those nights I sleep under the stairs.

Its human nature for people who've never suffered to not understand the plight of those who have.

 

[Younigue]

What a interesting take. It was never really because of their goodness, it was because the were passed out and didn't lock the door. You guys are trying to make it out like its a fucking leave it to beaver episode. You might imagine some of the things I was asked to do for a place to sleep at night. Those nights I sleep under the stairs.

Interesting? Hmm.

I don't think anyone is convinced Leave it to Beaver is anyone's experience least of all their own.

I am sorry for your experience. It does sound rough indeed. I have a rough story as well. Who doesn't? A tough back story is no reason to be so hard line that people should suffer because you did. That doesn't mean I think all problems and all troubles should be solved for people struggling but I assure you assistance and aid does not do that. It truly does come down to kindness and generosity and it's a good thing that it's governed to a certain extent. Are the systems 100% successful? No. They are in fact abused. The systems in place can do better but never so well that tax dollars cease to do good works for society overall. It is an evolved and "great" society that aids the struggling within its ranks. The systems are broken NOT unnecessary.

It's all well and good to suggest that you know best therefore those you raised can like it or lump it (same goes for the people utilizing the systems) but life happens in unexpected ways even if gawd forbid due to our own choices. We have built a society that in some ways handicaps the newest adult generation and that is not only due to gentle parenting. But that is not new, many on the system have also been handicapped. I'm definitely for accountability but that applies to society at large.

I would also like to point out that if you insist on holding on to a firm future design for your life and that of your children, life will conspire to test you. I hope love and compassion wins every time rather than the important lessons you have taught and personally live by. And remember where kindness failed you that you do not need to fail it. That would benefit all.

If you have managed to raise children that 100% live by the vast knowledge you have bestowed upon them and they do not fail you, Bravo! That is nearly an impossible thing to do. As is often the case with the next generation, I suspect your children will do things differently from you as they raise their children. It's important that the foundation they have to draw upon comes from a place of tolerance and acceptance.

 

[Younigue]

I know it isn't where I was, that's for sure. But please enlighten me.

What does that matter? You can not qualify someone else's experience. To be facetious, one person's hangnail can be as devastating to that person as your homelessness was to you. No one's story is of less value because it has less value to you.

 

[SMOGZINN]

There are some holes in your story. There are not many 19 year olds who are still in school, so not sure why she had to get a GED if she got pregnant at 18.5 years old.

She was behind a year because when she was young (before I met her mom) she had a serious illness, and then failed her senior year because complications of the same illness made it so pregnancy was hard on her and her doctor ordered so much bed rest that she missed the least 3rd of her senior year. She choose to get take the test to get a GED instead of going back. The idea was that she would then go ahead and start school to be an sonogram technician (a well paid technical degree that her mom could get her a job for) but for reasons I still don't understand she still hasn't started that.

On top of that she performed a medical procedure on herself because some right wing whack job she just meet convinced her that everything she was thought up to that point was wrong.

Her Gyn did the procedure. Once she turned 18 she no longer needs our permission to do anything, and even telling her mom she had the procedure would be illegal. Her mom, a nurse, is actually friends with the Doctor that did the procedure, but she could not tell us because of HIPPA regulations.

The red flag should have popped up in her head when the good Catholic boy was OK with having sex out of wedlock but not OK with blocking his little swimmers.

Have you ever met a teenager? At the best of times they are not the great critical thinkers, and when it comes to matters of the heart they are absolute rubbish. She was IN LOVE! Mature and well thinking adults make stupid choices when IN LOVE! teenagers are even worse.

But EVEN with the IUD (I assume you are referring to Mirena) having unprotected sex with an untested partner is a death wish.

Not that it matters, but she had the Implanon, it is the hormonal implant in the arm.

I think you are being just a little overly dramatic with the death sentence. Even HIV is no longer a death sentence, most STIs are either easily cured, or honestly nothing more that minor skin irritations.

I made it perfectly clear to my kids, there was apparently some wiggle room in what your kid thought you meant. Or she knew that whatever she did you would support her.

We thought we had made it just as clear.

So, to be perfectly clear you are saying that would allow your grandchildren to starve to maintain ideological purity? That is easy to say, but hard to do when facing a real life baby that is your grandchild. I really hope you never have to make such a choice, because trust me, it is nearly impossible do to.

 

[Jhhnn]

I know it isn't where I was, that's for sure. But please enlighten me.

And yet you base what you're saying on the presumption that you know anything about me at all.

I point out that poverty isn't a state of moral depravity but rather one of economics. There are, in truth, millions of people who live the way you despise who aren't poor at all. Some of 'em only look better because they can afford maids & nannies.

Myself? Looking back on my life I figure my bad luck was better than a lot of people's good luck.

 

[bshole]

Interesting? Hmm.
If you have managed to raise children that 100% live by the vast knowledge you have bestowed upon them and they do not fail you, Bravo! That is nearly an impossible thing to do. As is often the case with the next generation, I suspect your children will do things differently from you as they raise their children. It's important that the foundation they have to draw upon comes from a place of tolerance and acceptance.

That is all well and good until your son grows up, joins a street gang and starts dealing drugs for kicks. My house was ALL "tolerance and acceptance" his entire life. I am not sure about that motto anymore. If your kid sees you as weak and ineffectual, he may look for more dominant males to follow. I believe that happened with me.

 

[SNC]

She was behind a year because when she was young (before I met her mom) she had a serious illness, and then failed her senior year because complications of the same illness made it so pregnancy was hard on her and her doctor ordered so much bed rest that she missed the least 3rd of her senior year. She choose to get take the test to get a GED instead of going back. The idea was that she would then go ahead and start school to be an sonogram technician (a well paid technical degree that her mom could get her a job for) but for reasons I still don't understand she still hasn't started that.



Her Gyn did the procedure. Once she turned 18 she no longer needs our permission to do anything, and even telling her mom she had the procedure would be illegal. Her mom, a nurse, is actually friends with the Doctor that did the procedure, but she could not tell us because of HIPPA regulations.



Have you ever met a teenager? At the best of times they are not the great critical thinkers, and when it comes to matters of the heart they are absolute rubbish. She was IN LOVE! Mature and well thinking adults make stupid choices when IN LOVE! teenagers are even worse.



Not that it matters, but she had the Implanon, it is the hormonal implant in the arm.

I think you are being just a little overly dramatic with the death sentence. Even HIV is no longer a death sentence, most STIs are either easily cured, or honestly nothing more that minor skin irritations.



We thought we had made it just as clear.

So, to be perfectly clear you are saying that would allow your grandchildren to starve to maintain ideological purity? That is easy to say, but hard to do when facing a real life baby that is your grandchild. I really hope you never have to make such a choice, because trust me, it is nearly impossible do to.

Why is it that you assume that my kids will fail and need me for financial support? You are asking me to answer a question I have zero reason to believe will ever need to be addressed.

 

[SNC]

That is nearly an impossible thing to do.

It's not really that hard to do. Why do you feel the need to critique my parenting skills? Until you actually live it you are only guessing, oh that's right you read a paper or book on it.

 

[FerrelGeek]

This is why the notion of 'white privilege' doesn't sit well with me. Not that I think a hangnail should ruin anyone's life , but there are plenty of white people that have had a pretty rotten life. Would anyone consider the people who grow up in Appalachia to be particularly privileged? Many of the Irish immigrants that came to the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries weren't very privileged.

/Dons asbestos undies

What does that matter? You can not qualify someone else's experience. To be facetious, one person's hangnail can be as devastating to that person as your homelessness was to you. No one's story is of less value because it has less value to you.

 

[Puffnstuff]

This is why the notion of 'white privilege' doesn't sit well with me. Not that I think a hangnail should ruin anyone's life , but there are plenty of white people that have had a pretty rotten life. Would anyone consider the people who grow up in Appalachia to be particularly privileged? Many of the Irish immigrants that came to the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries weren't very privileged.

All very true and some people are too quick to blanket all members of a group for the sins of a few. It also points out that tribalism has been around for a long time making it ingrained into people's behaviors and that can be difficult to overcome, especially where its being reinforced as a group norm.

/Dons asbestos undies

EPA inspector hiding in shrubs makes note of oddly colored underpinnings.

 

[Younigue]

That is all well and good until your son grows up, joins a street gang and starts dealing drugs for kicks. My house was ALL "tolerance and acceptance" his entire life. I am not sure about that motto anymore. If your kid sees you as weak and ineffectual, he may look for more dominant males to follow. I believe that happened with me.

Or in your case maybe it didn't matter and your son is fully responsible for his own actions. If you know you did your best, that's all you get to know. Doesn't detract from what you taught him. It's still there he's just opted to reject it. Maybe that won't always be the case and won't it be wonderful when/if he decides to make better choices for himself he'll be armed with some pretty fantastic skills to help him transition. I know I am hoping for the best for you and yours.

 

[SNC]

your son is fully responsible for his own actions.

Wait... define responsible cause I'm lost. This entire thread, and especially you have done nothing but attempt give license to every Sue, Jane and Amy to do whatever they like, personal responsibility be damned. If Amy gets knocked up and needs the government to pay for her and hers for the next 18 years its OK, but if Bill sells drugs, he has to pay for the consequences? Seams to me Amy gets a pass for being a woman.

 

[Younigue]

It's not really that hard to do. Why do you feel the need to critique my parenting skills? Until you actually live it you are only guessing, oh that's right you read a paper or book on it.

Huh? I'm sure you did a wonderful job raising your children. That doesn't change the fact that life tests us. It may come in the shape of your children or from somewhere else.

It is very few children who grow up with the intention to raise their own as their parents raised them. If you feel like you raised them flawlessly... ask them. After all, it's not my opinion that matters, right?

 

[interchange]

I dunno. I plan on imparting my values on my children and being compassionate and respectful without sparing discipline when it is appropriate. I won't aim for shame, though, only just punishment. At this point, I'm far from universally successful, but I think there's a lot of value in showing that I'm trying to be responsible for my end of the bargain instead of being an absolute authority.

I don't think I'll need to teach them not to have kids they can't support. I'll probably do it anyway. But I have long since realized that knowing better has very little to do with acting better.

 

[Younigue]

Wait... define responsible cause I'm lost. This entire thread, and especially you have done nothing but attempt give license to every Sue, Jane and Amy to do whatever they like, personal responsibility be damned. If Amy gets knocked up and needs the government to pay for her and hers for the next 18 years its OK, but if Bill sells drugs, he has to pay for the consequences? Seams to me Amy gets a pass for being a woman.

I'm sure that's exactly what I mean...

You've made it clear you think I fight for women and women alone.

If bshole's son winds up on the system (sorry bs to be speaking of your son in a post not directed toward you) then that's how it'll be. You don't get to choose who can use the system and neither do you get to choose which of them gets to procreate. How am I losing you here? Might I suggest that if you see the flaws in the system (I see them too) but you believe it can be fixed by stealing people's rights (thereby dehumanizing them) that you go ahead and vote in that direction if it ever comes up. If by some strangeness it passes... Buckle up!

I've said it before, my vote would always be to fix the system through giving and strict guidelines rather than taking and becoming a less free country for it AND making those who require help, who likely already struggle with self-esteem to hate themselves even more.

PssssssssTT, I don't give one iota if the person in need is male or female.

If you can not understand that I was using male temporary castration (which as far as I know isn't even a thing) as an example as to why forced child birth for welfare mothers isn't acceptable then mister, I give you full permission to consider me a raging feminist. Power on My Sister!

 

[SNC]

I give you full permission to consider me a raging feminist.

So you don't consider yourself a raging feminist? hmm, you could have fooled me.

 

[Younigue]

So you don't consider yourself a raging feminist? hmm, you could have fooled me.

LOL, you'd be surprised.

I consider myself a humanist.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Why is it that you assume that my kids will fail and need me for financial support? You are asking me to answer a question I have zero reason to believe will ever need to be addressed.

I'm not making assumptions about you or your kids. You made a statement and I asked you how that works in a (for you) purely hypothetical situation. You basically said how that situation could never happen, so I'm showing you how I thought that about myself as well and was terribly wrong.

I am just asking how your philosophy holds up when confronted with the all too real possibilities that reality could throw at it.

 

[SNC]

LOL, you'd be surprised.

I consider myself a humanist.

Its funny how others see us as we are sometimes, and often it's not how we see ourselves. By your postings I would think you nothing other than a man hating raging left wing radical feminist with mason jars filled with the testicles of the males you've castrated either emotionally, mentally or physically on your mantel that you take down at dinner parties and pass around to others to while bragging about the pain you inflected. But that just what I get from your postings, you're probably a nice girl in real life.

 

[SNC]

I'm not making assumptions about you or your kids. You made a statement and I asked you how that works in a (for you) purely hypothetical situation. You basically said how that situation could never happen, so I'm showing you how I thought that about myself as well and was terribly wrong.

I am just asking how your philosophy holds up when confronted with the all too real possibilities that reality could throw at it.

I guess you'll have to wait until it happens and come back to see if I updated this thread.

 

[Younigue]

So you don't consider yourself a raging feminist? hmm, you could have fooled me.

As I said, Power on My Sister!

***I can not in good conscience recognize your masculinity. From here on out I must, as is my female obligation see you as female OR NOTHING. I think I swore to it in my oath to womankind. Sucka! Now, bend to my will. Men are meant to be seen NOT heard. You catching what I'm laying down? *clearing my throat* I suggest you say yes or be considered an enemy of all women. <--- I don't recommend it but you do you bumpkin!