If a woman tricks you into having a kid and then wants to collect child support

[JMapleton]

Personally I plan to stick to the real world where deciding to have child is between me, my loved ones, and any medical folks we choose to involve and NOT big government, "Think of the Children (Unborn that is!)" folks like your self. Where having a child is a wonderful experience and doesn't involve killing 2 or 3 for every child we have.

Shouldn't the child you're aborting have a say so? Nice try but weak argument.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Shouldn't the child you're aborting have a say so? Nice try but weak argument.

Clumps of cells don't have feelings, let alone opinions.

 

[kalrith]

Clumps of cells don't have feelings, let alone opinions.

Aren't you just a clump of cells?

And lack of feelings != lack of rights or lack of life. If someone's a vegetable with no mental capacity whatsoever, can I just go in and chop their head off? "I'm sorry officer. She had no feelings or opinions, so I knew she wouldn't object to me killing her. I don't think I did anything wrong."

 

[surfsatwerk]

Aren't you just a clump of cells?

And lack of feelings != lack of rights or lack of life. If someone's a vegetable with no mental capacity whatsoever, can I just go in and chop their head off? "I'm sorry officer. She had no feelings or opinions, so I knew she wouldn't object to me killing her. I don't think I did anything wrong."

No, I'm an organism. I have cells, tissue, and organs that form a living animal. You right to life nutballs need to take a biology class.

Edit: A brainless existence of being fed by tubes and shitting in diapers sounds like a nightmare. My life has no value if I'm not here to live it. Your example is meant for shock value, but a confirmed brain dead human being should be allowed to die in peace and dignity rather than exist on as a potato in diapers.

 

[OutHouse]

No, I'm an organism. I have cells, tissue, and organs that form a living animal. You right to life nutballs need to take a biology class.

a zygote is a clump of cells. a fetus is a bit tad more than a clump of cells, they have cells, tissue, and organs, they move, feel pain and have a beating heart. Sorta like you.

 

[frostedflakes]

ok i didn't want to say this because I knew I would be the butt of everyone's jokes, but I will.

she said she had some medical condition that made her get her ovaries removed. So I was an idiot and thought I would be safe hitting it raw. It was going good for 6 months until she said she was pregnant. I was so angry because I felt like I was tricked so bad. And even more upset when she wouldn't get an abortion. So everything is pretty much turned upside down right now

You seriously fell for that? :/

 

[OutHouse]

First off the egg and sperm were both alive before they joined so you are demonstratively wrong that life starts then. It's just an arbitrary time that sounds good - TO YOU.

human or animal life begins at conception

Third - Did you know that something like a 1/3rd of all fertilized eggs (I'm sorry babys) never implant. In my own experience with having children and applying your logic that means instead of not getting pregnant for a couple of months we've probably killed at least 2 babies for everyone we've had! So for the entire world population of ~ 7 billion we've killed over 15 billion babies making them!

we've killed? sorry but you didn't kill shit. the woman has absoutly NO control of the fertilized egg attaches or not.

 

[surfsatwerk]

a zygote is a clump of cells. a fetus is a bit tad more than a clump of cells, they have cells, tissue, and organs, they move, feel pain and have a beating heart. Sorta like you.

No they react to stimulus. Claiming that it is pain they feel is erroneous and has no factual basis. Now if you're trying to be obtuse and talking about a fetus 8 or 9 months after conception then yes I agree with what you said. But during the 1st trimester and 2nd it's a completely different situation.

 

[frostedflakes]

human or animal life begins at conception

:sneaky:

 

[DT4K]

The objects of rights and duties under the United States Constitution are persons, and persons are born.


The only thing relevant to this discussion is the law. I am not interested in changing your feelings about abortion, only establishing the facts.

{snip}


My only case is that the law says fetuses are not persons. That is an undeniable fact.


It is perplexing, albeit somewhat unsurprising coming from a person with such a flimsy grasp on reality, that you would think that the policy of some other foreign government has any determinative bearing whatsoever on the content and application of the law in our country. That having been said, I am taking you to task. Please cite the law of any country you please which stipulates the personhood of fetuses.

I won't hold my breath.

This is really quite stunning. I've argued with a lot of people over the years on these forums and I've come across a lot of people with a superiority complex. But this has to be the pinnacle of conceit and arrogance.
I've never encountered someone who was so closed minded to the opinions and viewpoints of others and so steadfastly set in his ways that to even consider opposing views would be out of the question.

You seem truly unable of comprehending the concept that just because the constitution has been interpreted in a certain way does not mean that intelligent people cannot debate the issues.

Judging by your logic, in the days when slavery was legal, you would be the one arguing that anyone who didn't support slavery was simply wrong because the laws said it was ok.

I suspect your argument would go something like this:
"My only case is that the law says slaves are not persons. That is an undeniable fact."

 

[OutHouse]

No they react to stimulus. Claiming that it is pain they feel is erroneous and has no factual basis. Now if you're trying to be obtuse and talking about a fetus 8 or 9 months after conception then yes I agree with what you said. But during the 1st trimester and 2nd it's a completely different situation.

i really dont know how to respond to your statement that they respond to a stimulus and its obtuse.

pain is a stimulus

 

[Adul]

Is it fair it's the child who will suffer because she tried to trick the guy? Be a man and pay up.

try to get custody instead.

 

[surfsatwerk]

You seem truly unable to comprehend the concept that just because the constitution has been interpreted in a certain way does not mean that intelligent people cannot debate the issues.

Judging by your logic, in the days when slavery was legal, you would be the one arguing that anyone who didn't support slavery was simply wrong because the laws said it was ok.

Outlawing slavery increased people's rights and freedom. Outlawing abortion would decrease a woman's rights and freedom. After all the progress this country has made in granting equal protection under the law to women and minorities it would be obscene to attempt to make them 2nd class citizens again.

 

[surfsatwerk]

i really dont know how to respond to your statement that they respond to a stimulus and its obtuse.

pain is a stimulus

Pain indicates their is cognitive processes at work. A cell does not feel pain. A cell or a clump of cells simply responds to its environment.

 

[DT4K]

No they react to stimulus. Claiming that it is pain they feel is erroneous and has no factual basis. Now if you're trying to be obtuse and talking about a fetus 8 or 9 months after conception then yes I agree with what you said. But during the 1st trimester and 2nd it's a completely different situation.

Makes me curious. How do you feel about abortions in the 3rd trimester?

Many pro-choice supporters do believe that there should be limits on late-term abortions. Some of the more extreme pro-choice'ers in this thread believe that since a 9 month fetus hasn't been born, it is not a person and aborting it is absolutely fine and should not even be open for debate.

Considering the prevalence of that viewpoint in this thread, it's not being obtuse to be "talking about a fetus 8 or 9 months after conception".

 

[DT4K]

Outlawing slavery increased people's rights and freedom. Outlawing abortion would decrease a woman's rights and freedom. After all the progress this country has made in granting equal protection under the law to women and minorities it would be obscene to attempt to make them 2nd class citizens again.

Rather than addressing my point, you're just arguing why you think abortion should be legal.

If you read what I wrote again, you'll see that I made no arguments for or against abortion. I simply stated that by following Cerpin's logic, one would have to conclude that slavery was ok and anyone who disagreed was lacking intelligence. My point was about the logic used to support his statements.

 

[Genx87]

yes. right now I'm trying to find out the best way to protect myself from paying child after the baby comes out. She says she will be responsible for the baby even financially. I know how people change, especially women so I'm trying to cover myself in case the worst happens. Plus I was deceived by her so I do not really trust what she said she is going to do,

Yeah cover your case, wouldnt want to help support your own child.

What is this world coming to?

 

[Miramonti]

Sounds like the OP met someone who had Chunnel surgery done, a devious procedure that connects the anal cavity internally to the vaginal cavity, providing a direct route for sperm to pass thru the cervix into the uterus during anal sex.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Makes me curious. How do you feel about abortions in the 3rd trimester?

Many pro-choice supporters do believe that there should be limits on late-term abortions. Some of the more extreme pro-choice'ers in this thread believe that since a 9 month fetus hasn't been born, it is not a person and aborting it is absolutely fine and should not even be open for debate.

Considering the prevalence of that viewpoint in this thread, it's not being obtuse to be "talking about a fetus 8 or 9 months after conception".

3rd trimester abortions should not be legal unless there is a medical reason the pregnancy should be aborted or some other extenuating circumstance. A fetus that old is radically different than in prior stages of development and can exist outside the womb.

 

[HumblePie]

i really dont know how to respond to your statement that they respond to a stimulus and its obtuse.

pain is a stimulus

Hrmm, on a different argument about semantics you are arguing by division.

Pain is stimulus, but not all stimulus is pain.

Also, one thing and ONLY one thing feels pain. The brain. We interpret the nerve signals as pain in our brains. As pointed out, it is a cognitive function. Reacting to stimulus is not the same as everything "reacts" to stimulus. Take for example water. Apply some heat to water and you get steam, but apply some cold you get ice. In both cases the water reacted to a stimulus and responded. Can either response be associated with "pain" for the water? No.

It takes nerves and a cognitive function to determine pain. Want further proof? What happens when you are anesthetized, or something else prevents signals from nerves from reaching the cognitive part of your brain? You get no pain response. If I block the nerve center to your arm and then stab your hand you won't feel a thing. If I completely knock you out so your brain stops cognitive functioning, such as with general anesthesia then you won't feel anything done to your body at all.

The simple fact is that it take a stimulus input AND cognitive functions to feel "pain." Anything less than that is just the same scale as water reacting to temperature.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Rather than addressing my point, you're just arguing why you think abortion should be legal.

If you read what I wrote again, you'll see that I made no arguments for or against abortion. I simply stated that by following Cerpin's logic, one would have to conclude that slavery was ok and anyone who disagreed was lacking intelligence. My point was about the logic used to support his statements.

That's not the case. The law regarding slavery treated humans beings as something less than human based on ethnicity. There is no scientific or logical foundation for that law's existence.

It's an entirely different situation to argue that a fetus should be treated as a full human being at the moment of conception. Abortion is legal because there is scientific and logical reasons why it violates a woman's constitutional rights to deny her access to medical care. You dislike abortion but that is not a good reason to invalidate a woman's rights.

 

[DT4K]

3rd trimester abortions should not be legal unless there is a medical reason the pregnancy should be aborted or some other extenuating circumstance. A fetus that old is radically different than in prior stages of development and can exist outside the womb.

OK. Well, we have at least one thing in common. In Cerpin's opinion, we are both complete and total morons who lack the capability of understanding that abortion up until the point of birth is totally ok and should be legal.

 

[StageLeft]

Child support is uspposed to be for the kid not her so too bad the kid is still there. You pay.

 

[DT4K]

That's not the case. The law regarding slavery treated humans beings as something less than human based on ethnicity. There is no scientific or logical foundation for that law's existence.

It's an entirely different situation to argue that a fetus should be treated as a full human being at the moment of conception. Abortion is legal because there is scientific and logical reasons why it violates a woman's constitutional rights to deny her access to medical care. You dislike abortion but that is not a good reason to invalidate a woman's rights.

I think you're still missing my point. I'm making no comparison whatsoever between laws regarding abortion and slavery. I'm simply pointing out the justification for his position.
His logic is simply: the law says a fetus is not a person and abortion is legal, so it's totally fine and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
At one point, the law said a slave wasn't a full person and slavery was legal, so by that same logic, anyone who disagrees would be labeled as an idiot in his mind.

 

[Pepsei]

can we move the abortion talk to p&n and stick with the 'lulz'?