If a woman tricks you into having a kid and then wants to collect child support

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
I already have. In California, the murder statute specifically includes fetuses as distinct from human beings in it's murder statutes, and makes exception for lawful abortions.

Again, the government does not define human life. Publicly accepted logic and reason do.

Just as the government does not define what is and what isn't moral. 50 years ago it was illegal for people of certain races to sit at the front of buses. Did that, at the time, make it acceptable? Or was the government in error? I contend they were in error.

Do not use "the government says" arguments to back up your case. I can do the same because I'm sure there is a government somewhere that thinks opposite and I can argue the same on the same basis of another government's policy.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Again, the government does not define human life.
The objects of rights and duties under the United States Constitution are persons, and persons are born.

Publicly accepted logic and reason do.
The only thing relevant to this discussion is the law. I am not interested in changing your feelings about abortion, only establishing the facts.

{snip}

Do not use "the government says" arguments to back up your case.
My only case is that the law says fetuses are not persons. That is an undeniable fact.

I can do the same because I'm sure there is a government somewhere that thinks opposite and I can argue the same on the same basis of another government's policy.
It is perplexing, albeit somewhat unsurprising coming from a person with such a flimsy grasp on reality, that you would think that the policy of some other foreign government has any determinative bearing whatsoever on the content and application of the law in our country. That having been said, I am taking you to task. Please cite the law of any country you please which stipulates the personhood of fetuses.

I won't hold my breath.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
It is perplexing, albeit somewhat unsurprising coming from a person with such a flimsy grasp on reality, that you would think that the policy of some other foreign government has any determinative bearing whatsoever on the content and application of the law in our country. That having been said, I am taking you to task. Please cite the law of any country you please which stipulates the personhood of fetuses.

I won't hold my breath.

You lose:
http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html

Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include "an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability" as a "person" and "human being" for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Yes it's a fetus, like a human is a body.
A human is a living, sentient, human body. Please, learn some rigor.

So is the fetus just a body part of a woman? You have not answered the previous question.
No, usually the fetus is not considered an appendage of the woman's body. This is rather irrelevant, however.

The fetus is either an individual person or a body part of the woman.
False dichotomy, and an irrelevant distinction in any case.

Your opinion, and a illogical one at that.
It is not an opinion. It is a fact. The subjects of rights and duties under the United States Constitution, persons, are born. Read the 14th amendment.

A person is a sovereign human life and that sovereign life existed before live birth.
This is not a definition found anywhere in US law.

That is where we differ, I do not accept the government's declaration of marriage. Marriage is a religious or society accepted institution. The government does not define what is marriage.
You obviously inhabit a different universe than the rest of us.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
You lose:
http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html

Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include "an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability" as a "person" and "human being" for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.

This statute does not stipulate that fetuses are persons. It requires that fetuses be treated as persons in special cases, similar to the California murder statutes. Note that lawful abortion is conspicuously absent from the list of special cases.

And since I know you will struggle to understand the relevant distinction, consider that the fact that though a person may treat another person as a dog, for example, that does not mean that the person is a dog.

Nice job ignoring the rest of my refutations of your nonsense, though.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
No, usually the fetus is not considered an appendage of the woman's body. This is rather irrelevant, however.

Oh, it's irrelevant to you because you cannot answer the question.

Without answering "fetus" you cannot answer the question, "what is a fetus?" Just admit you cannot answer the question without conceding a precedent that states an individual life is a human being and an unborn fetus is an individual life.

False dichotomy, and an irrelevant distinction in any case.

Selective use of facts, I see.

It is not an opinion. It is a fact. The subjects of rights and duties under the United States Constitution, persons, are born. Read the 14th amendment.

Firstly, you are incorrect. I did not say when does a fetus become a "citizen." I asked when does a fetus become a human being.

Secondly, you are more incorrect to use a government's definition for a philosophical debate. My logic is not policed by any government and the laws of nature and morality and not subject to a politician or dictator's opinion, which can be changed at any moment, on a whim, with the correct amount of votes. They are natural, universal for all mankind, and never ending. What is true in the United States, is also true in Canada, or France, or Russia, or China, everywhere. You are hiding like a coward behind a temporary declaration made by a government (all countries are temporary institutions that will fall eventually, no exceptions), but we are discussing the universal laws of morality which do not changed based on popular vote or a bureaucrat's discretion.

This is not a definition found anywhere in US law.

Fact: The State of Alabama's definition of a "person" and a "human being" includes a fetus. See link above.

You obviously inhabit a different universe than the rest of us.

You obviously subject your own logic and reasoning to the whim of a government's bureaucrat.
 

Tommy2000GT

Golden Member
Jun 19, 2000
1,832
3
81
ok i didn't want to say this because I knew I would be the butt of everyone's jokes, but I will.

she said she had some medical condition that made her get her ovaries removed. So I was an idiot and thought I would be safe hitting it raw. It was going good for 6 months until she said she was pregnant. I was so angry because I felt like I was tricked so bad. And even more upset when she wouldn't get an abortion. So everything is pretty much turned upside down right now
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
ok i didn't want to say this because I knew I would be the butt of everyone's jokes, but I will.

she said she had some medical condition that made her get her ovaries removed. So I was an idiot and thought I would be safe hitting it raw. It was going good for 6 months until she said she was pregnant. I was so angry because I felt like I was tricked so bad. And even more upset when she wouldn't get an abortion. So everything is pretty much turned upside down right now

So this really happened? I thought it was just an example.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Oh, it's irrelevant to you because you cannot answer the question.
No, it is irrelevant because whether it is a body part, not a body part or even a person, a woman still retains the right to terminate her pregnancy at her own discretion. No person, born or unborn, has the unqualified right to occupy the body of another person, forcibly respirate and nourish itself from that person's bloodstream, and forcibly inject that person with hormones and waste without that person's explicit and continued consent.

Without answering "fetus" you cannot answer the question, "what is a fetus?" Just admit you cannot answer the question without conceding a precedent that states an individual life is a human being and an unborn fetus is an individual life.
What an inane argument. I can answer the question 10 different ways, and none of them need to concede a fetuses personhood.



Selective use of facts, I see.
Not at all. A fetus is neither a woman's body part, nor is it a person. It is a fetus, a potential human being, the product of human conception and gestation.



Firstly, you are incorrect. I did not say when does a fetus become a "citizen." I asked when does a fetus become a human being.
I answered that question. That you lack the facility apprehend the answer you were given is your own problem.

{snip}

Fact: The State of Alabama's definition of a "person" and a "human being" includes a fetus. See link above.
No, it doesn't. The statutes for murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault were specifically amended to treat fetuses as persons, because in reality fetuses are not persons.
 

Tommy2000GT

Golden Member
Jun 19, 2000
1,832
3
81
So this really happened? I thought it was just an example.

yes. right now I'm trying to find out the best way to protect myself from paying child after the baby comes out. She says she will be responsible for the baby even financially. I know how people change, especially women so I'm trying to cover myself in case the worst happens. Plus I was deceived by her so I do not really trust what she said she is going to do,
 
Last edited:

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
yes. right now I'm trying to find out the best way to protect myself from paying child after the baby comes out. She says she will be responsible for the baby even financially. I know how people change, especially women so I'm trying to cover myself in case the worst happens

I haven't read the entire thread and I apologize for throwing it off topic.

But I really think you should not punish the child because the woman lied. Pay up so the kid can have a better life, it's your responsibility. If you're not a father to that child, no one else will be. The kid will thank you for it later and you'll look back and be proud at what you did for that child.

Not being hostile or judging you, just giving my advise.

Help that child and I don't care what anyone else on this forum says, you will have the "man card of all man cards" because you manned up and took responsibility even when someone else tricked or lied to you.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
if you can prove that she tricked you into having a kid, would the court deny her from collecting child support?

I don't think it's fair that she should get child support payments if she said she used birth control but didn't or poked holes in the condom.

Just how did she trick you into growing a uterus?? And getting pregnant??
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
No, it is irrelevant because whether it is a body part, not a body part or even a person, a woman still retains the right to terminate her pregnancy at her own discretion. No person, born or unborn, has the unqualified right to occupy the body of another person, forcibly respirate and nourish itself from that person's bloodstream, and forcibly inject that person with hormones and waste without that person's explicit and continued consent.

Nice try, but you have already lost this argument by both failing to answer the question and using an already debunked argument.

If you have sex, you give full permission for any being to be created inside of you and complete it's lifecycle process because you knew the consequences when you did it.

Your argument is like saying if I robbed a gas station, the government has no right to continuously imprison me without my consent. You do the deed and you have to face the responsibilities. That's how life works.

Do you have any concept of personal responsibility? Or were you not taught any as a child? Just leave something there and let someone else clean up the mess later?


What an inane argument. I can answer the question 10 different ways, and none of them need to concede a fetuses personhood.

You have failed to even answer it one way, so I consider your statement pointless.

Not at all. A fetus is neither a woman's body part, nor is it a person. It is a fetus, a potential human being, the product of human conception and gestation.

A fetus is something, you cannot create a whole new word to define it so it will fit into your argument.

A fetus is either a person or an extension of the female body. It cannot be anything else, except in the mind of something trying to twist logic and invent their own reasoning.


Please, if you wish, snip out the parts you are unable to refute. /end sarcasm

No, it doesn't. The statutes for murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault were specifically amended to treat fetuses as persons, because in reality fetuses are not persons.

In my state it is define as the following:

"Unborn child" is defined as "an individual member of the species Homo sapiens at any stage of development in utero." (LB 57, 2006)

The word "child" clearly indicates "human being."
 
Last edited:

amdhunter

Lifer
May 19, 2003
23,332
249
106
Did you hear about the fetus that started a bar fight?
He went there to "stir-up" some trouble!

Why is a fetus like a condom?
It's safer with one, but more fun without.
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,382
5
81
Sorry you did the crime you have to pay the dime!!

What she intended or what she said will have no bearing on child support!!
You screwed the pooch....you now get screwed...have fun paying to support the kid!!

hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa,,,but your honor when i stuck it in....she told me she was on the pill.....how was I to know she was talking about tyleno0l...lol.....rofl..hahahhaaa...sucker....

Why!!! DO you ALWAYs!!!!! talk!!!! like this!!! AHAHAMLAO ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT!!! makes yoU!!!! sound like!!! a fucking!1!! idiot!!! and! a losER@!!!!
 
Last edited:
Jan 2, 2010
105
0
0
FYI she could get pregnant, move to another state have the kid and never tell you. Then 18 years later she could show up and the court would order you to pay 18 years of back child support plus interest for a child you never met, never knew about, and probably will never be able to meet. The law competely on the womans side when it comes to this.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
FYI she could get pregnant, move to another state have the kid and never tell you. Then 18 years later she could show up and the court would order you to pay 18 years of back child support plus interest for a child you never met, never knew about, and probably will never be able to meet. The law competely on the womans side when it comes to this.

How often does something like that happen? (honest question)
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
But definitely don't tell her.
That way if she cheats on you and tries to trick you.......Good times.

There was a post about this a while back. Some guy got one, did not tell his GF, then she got pregnant (well after the surgery) and claimed it was his, the tests said otherwise.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,691
15,939
146
Nice try, but you have already lost this argument by both failing to answer the question and using an already debunked argument.

If you have sex, you give full permission for any being to be created inside of you and complete it's lifecycle process because you knew the consequences when you did it.

Your argument is like saying if I robbed a gas station, the government has no right to continuously imprison me without my consent. You do the deed and you have to face the responsibilities. That's how life works.

Do you have any concept of personal responsibility? Or were you not taught any as a child? Just leave something there and let someone else clean up the mess later?




You have failed to even answer it one way, so I consider your statement pointless.



A fetus is something, you cannot create a whole new word to define it so it will fit into your argument.

A fetus is either a person or an extension of the female body. It cannot be anything else, except in the mind of something trying to twist logic and invent their own reasoning.



Please, if you wish, snip out the parts you are unable to refute. /end sarcasm



In my state it is define as the following:

"Unborn child" is defined as "an individual member of the species Homo sapiens at any stage of development in utero." (LB 57, 2006)

The word "child" clearly indicates "human being."

I love this argument, life starts at conception. It's a person at conception. You consented to have a baby when you had sex. It's JM World!

Let's look at the ways at how screwed up this concept is.


First off the egg and sperm were both alive before they joined so you are demonstratively wrong that life starts then. It's just an arbitrary time that sounds good - TO YOU.

Secondly are you sure it's a person? Because you may not be aware but there is this thing called twins where an egg splits into two seperate entities or maybe even MORE! So how many persons was that again? Maybe to be on safe side if a woman takes the morning after pill she should be charged will quadruple homicide just in case she caused an egg that would split into 4 to fail to implant?

Third - Did you know that something like a 1/3rd of all fertilized eggs (I'm sorry babys) never implant. In my own experience with having children and applying your logic that means instead of not getting pregnant for a couple of months we've probably killed at least 2 babies for everyone we've had! So for the entire world population of ~ 7 billion we've killed over 15 billion babies making them!

So remember parents, every time you a have child God kills a couple of babies! (At least in JM world ;) )

And last but certainly not least, do you realize that when you have sex a flushed fertilized egg baby is MORE likely than a live birth! So when you consent to sex you are really consenting to baby killing. YAY for JMworld.

Personally I plan to stick to the real world where deciding to have child is between me, my loved ones, and any medical folks we choose to involve and NOT big government, "Think of the Children (Unborn that is!)" folks like your self. Where having a child is a wonderful experience and doesn't involve killing 2 or 3 for every child we have.
 
Last edited:

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
The guy's responsibility is to pick a woman who is both smart enough and responsible enough to make the most of the protection birth control offers. If he fails to do that, the child's welfare is and should be his responsibility.
The woman's responsibility is to pick a man who is both smart enough and responsible enough to make the most of the protection birth control offers. If she fails to do that, the child's welfare and should be her responsibility.

One of these statements is stupid, the other is equally dum.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
1. If a fetus is not a human, what is it?

2. When does a fetus become a human or a full fledged "person"?

3. If your answer to number two is "at birth." What if they are born premature? Does that one child who is born a fetus stay a fetus until 9 months after conception?
If it's at BIRTH, and the baby is BORN premature, it's still at BIRTH.

At birth != 9 months.

FYI the definition of fetus is UNBORN animal.
Fetus: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature animal
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
If women stop getting abortions where the hell will I get the stem cells to breed my race of Atomic Supermen?