Idea for new School System

[HumblePie]

That was the norm, and you could take the college courses (if qualified) but you had pay in order for them to count as college credits otherwise they just counted to your high school credits. But then again I remember when kids would jump at the chance to rake your leaves, shovel snow, etc. for 10 or 20 dollars and weren't afraid to work hard during summer break and proud that they earned the money instead of being handed to them.

Speaking of this, I remember as a kid I went up and down my neighborhood asking my neighbors if they would like me to mow their lawn for $10-$20. I wasn't the only one as it was a pain to find customers to service. Had to go to the neighborhood next to ours to get some extra clients. I was mowing 14 lawns a week including my own usually at one point in my life.

In my current neighborhood I have yet to see a kid do this. In fact, while I see kids all the time, I almost always only see adults doing any of the yard work at all. Never once see a kid mow, lay down mulch, pull weeds, or trim hedges. If they are teen age and are outside it's because they are sitting on their porch hiding out from something while playing on their iPhone. Or when I drive to work and see them lined out at the bus stop. Only kids I typically see outside being active are the young ones actually playing. Those are ages 9 and younger from what I can tell.

 

[SagaLore]

Let me rephrase my post

How about you don't, please explain your previous statement? How do we measure a teacher's performance?

 

[Mursilis]

I'm of the opinion that school systems aren't broken. Parenting today is broken. No parent can ever do wrong by their child and their child can do no wrong.

But by all means, blame the teachers/system when their hands are tied.

This, a billion times over. Too many parents care more about chasing $$ and view schools as "free" day-care for their little pets, I mean, kids. Mine go to a public charter school which requires an application to get in, which generally weeds out the parents who don't take their child's education seriously. Thus, because the kids going to this school come from parents who actually care about their children's future, this school beats all the other county schools handily in GPA, test scores, etc. Not surprisingly, a good chunk of the students are from recent immigrant families.

 

[Texashiker]

How about you don't, please explain your previous statement? How do we measure a teacher's performance?

How does your job measure your performance?

I will give you an example.

When I was in 4th, maybe 5th grade, teacher hands out a bunch of papers, I complete the wrong paper first, teacher gets pissed off, brings me to office, gives me a paddling.

Screw her.

Teachers that don't have any more patience then that need to be fired. Everyone in the class had a stack of papers, and I just happened to complete the wrong one first. I feel that she was nothing more then a bully.

So how do you measure a teachers performance? By just that, their performance. Being mean to children is not a job requirement.

 

[fskimospy]

How does your job measure your performance?

I will give you an example.

When I was in 4th, maybe 5th grade, teacher hands out a bunch of papers, I complete the wrong paper first, teacher gets pissed off, brings me to office, gives me a paddling.

Screw her.

Teachers that don't have any more patience then that need to be fired. Everyone in the class had a stack of papers, and I just happened to complete the wrong one first. I feel that she was nothing more then a bully.

So how do you measure a teachers performance? By just that, their performance. Being mean to children is not a job requirement.

Their performance how though? By what metric would you measure their 'patience'? Be specific.

 

[LurkerPrime]

The entire school system needs to be modernized. The conecpt of grades and classes also needs to be done away with. All this needs to be replaced with what I'll call a skill tree or skill chart. This tree will look deceptively like a college major class chart that has pre-requisites and co-requisites for each class/unit, except that its much larger and starts from the beginning (basic math, reading, etc) to advanced college classes. Every single class/unit will be available online with multiple lectures available along with sample/practise problems. Tests are administered when the student is ready, and if passed the student can then take higher level classes based on that one. Tests are standardized at a national level and at a maximum can only be 50% multiple choice. 85%+ efficiency will be required on the tests to ensure the student has adequately learned the knowledge required to understand subsequent subjects.

Students are left to learn at thier own pace. It is then up to the student or thier parents to ensure that they are on pace to reach thier own goals. Learning can take place either at home or at a centralized "school/daycare". Teachers as we know them are no longer needed as the teaching is done via recorded lectures/videos/pictures etc.

Different college degree programs would require a student to have reached a certain level before being accepted. For example a student must have reached calc 1, physics, chemistry, and a certain english writing/reading proficiency before being accepted to any engineering major. While on the other hand only Trig, physical science, and a handful of history/english classes would be required for an english/history major.

The classes/units up to the college level will be available to anyone free of charge to learn/review at anytime. Along with being able to sign up for tests.

 

[rudder]

I'm of the opinion that school systems aren't broken. Parenting today is broken. No parent can ever do wrong by their child and their child can do no wrong.

But by all means, blame the teachers/system when their hands are tied.

I would bet that if schools implemented a policy where multiple disciplinary action on a student would result in their suspension.. the parent would make those little punks behave. Once they had to miss a day or two of work to babysit their little troublemaker... they would think twice about sending them to school without any sense of respect for the teacher and their classmates.

As it is now..at least near me.. the principals advise teachers not to yell at student... lest it hurt their feelings. And if you are black... you have free reign to terrorize the school... a parent simply has to mention racism and the NAACP and the principal cowers in fear. My wife had such a student and was told by no means was she to discipline her... a big WTF.

It only takes 1 student like this to disrupt and slow down a whole class.

 

[fskimospy]

The entire school system needs to be modernized. The conecpt of grades and classes also needs to be done away with. All this needs to be replaced with what I'll call a skill tree or skill chart. This tree will look deceptively like a college major class chart that has pre-requisites and co-requisites for each class/unit, except that its much larger and starts from the beginning (basic math, reading, etc) to advanced college classes. Every single class/unit will be available online with multiple lectures available along with sample/practise problems. Tests are administered when the student is ready, and if passed the student can then take higher level classes based on that one. Tests are standardized at a national level and at a maximum can only be 50% multiple choice. 85%+ efficiency will be required on the tests to ensure the student has adequately learned the knowledge required to understand subsequent subjects.

Students are left to learn at thier own pace. It is then up to the student or thier parents to ensure that they are on pace to reach thier own goals. Learning can take place either at home or at a centralized "school/daycare". Teachers as we know them are no longer needed as the teaching is done via recorded lectures/videos/pictures etc.

Different college degree programs would require a student to have reached a certain level before being accepted. For example a student must have reached calc 1, physics, chemistry, and a certain english writing/reading proficiency before being accepted to any engineering major. While on the other hand only Trig, physical science, and a handful of history/english classes would be required for an english/history major.

The classes/units up to the college level will be available to anyone free of charge to learn/review at anytime. Along with being able to sign up for tests.

Except of course that distance learning like that is catastrophic for at risk, unmotivated, or troubled students. Hell, even mid level students are frequently poorly served by internet based learning. If you don't believe me, try out an online class for anything but the most basic subjects and try to get through it learning the least amount possible.

And no, letting the unmotivated/troubled/whatever just fail is not an option.

 

[Texashiker]

Their performance how though?

How does your job judge your performance?

When I go in for a job performance review, my boss looks at all kinds of factors - How often am I late to work, how often do I take off, how well do I dress, am I self motivated, how well do I complete task,,,, the usual stuff.

It might sound silly, but I think teachers should be held to "some" kind of standard. Just giving kids assignments and homework does not cut it.

 

[fskimospy]

How does your job judge your performance?

When I go in for a job performance review, my boss looks at all kinds of factors - How often am I late to work, how often do I take off, how well do I dress, am I self motivated, how well do I complete task,,,, the usual stuff.

It might sound silly, but I think teachers should be held to "some" kind of standard. Just giving kids assignments and homework does not cut it.

They are already held to many different kinds of standards, including how often they are late to work, how often they take off, if they are appropriately dressed, etc. Most of what you're asking for is already done.

The major sticking point is 'how well they complete their tasks'. How would you measure this? Standardized tests for this measure have been a pretty huge failure.

 

[Texashiker]

The major sticking point is 'how well they complete their tasks'. How would you measure this? Standardized tests for this measure have been a pretty huge failure.

One of my first answers was to used standardized testing of the students to score the teacher.

Teacher teaches 7th grade science, test scores go down 3 years in a row, teacher is fired. For most jobs, I think that would be fair.

If the quality of the finished product goes down, the problem should be found, and fixed. If its a faulty machine in the process, replace the machine - in this case it would be to replace the teacher.

I do not support standardized testing for students. People learn in different ways. Some people learn through hands on, some people learn through reading and lecture. Schools are directed at people who learn through reading and lecture. Students that learn by hands on are often left out in the rain.

The problem is, teachers do not identify which students learn by the hands on approach. Instead of catering to the learning needs of the student, the teacher says take this ADHD medicine so you will sit down and shut up.

I do not claim to have an answer. I just think society and teachers can do a better job of teaching.

 

[fskimospy]

One of my first answers was to used standardized testing of the students to score the teacher.

Teacher teaches 7th grade science, test scores go down 3 years in a row, teacher is fired. For most jobs, I think that would be fair.

If the quality of the finished product goes down, the problem should be found, and fixed. If its a faulty machine in the process, replace the machine - in this case it would be to replace the teacher.

I do not support standardized testing for students. People learn in different ways. Some people learn through hands on, some people learn through reading and lecture. Schools are directed at people who learn through reading and lecture. Students that learn by hands on are often left out in the rain.

The problem is, teachers do not identify which students learn by the hands on approach. Instead of catering to the learning needs of the student, the teacher says take this ADHD medicine so you will sit down and shut up.

Standardized testing as a method of teacher evaluation has proven to be catastrophic for our school systems. It is a total, unmitigated failure. It's also what has led to people 'teaching the test', the death of science, music, etc programs, and more.

Standardized tests are simply not good measures of overall student achievement, much less teacher efficacy. They should be used as one small part of teacher evaluations, but they cannot possibly be used in the way you describe.

 

[biostud]

do you reshuffle classes after each grade in the US?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

We need more schools, but less grades.

Many schools are too big. Kids get lost in the shuffle. I'm not talking about the teacher/student ratio - I'm talking about the overall student body. There should be a strict limit of how many kids a school can contain.

There should be more total schools - they should be more local community oriented. Property taxes should be paid into a county fund and redistributed evenly among the smaller schools.

To pay for the higher overhead of building and faculty distribution, we should actually have less grades. K through 12? Nah. It should be 1 through 11. K should be a part of opt-in pre-school. For all schools, grades 10 and 11 should have vocation options. I remember a school district where you could opt to take "college prep" courses, or get bussed to another votech school for half a day to learn a trade. I think this setup was efficient and effective, and think it should be available to ALL school districts in the US that have populations large enough to support it.

We keep having these debates about throwing more money at the way the school system is, but I'd rather look at revising the school system itself. It really is a poor setup. Its like someone decided that 13 years of schooling seemed like a good number and just filled up the schedule. Since an Associates Degree is now taken for granted as if its the new high school diploma - we need to cut down the time it takes to get to that point.

What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[Texashiker]

Standardized testing as a method of teacher evaluation has proven to be catastrophic for our school systems. It is a total, unmitigated failure. It's also what has led to people 'teaching the test', the death of science, music, etc programs, and more. <snip>
but they cannot possibly be used in the way you describe.

That is why I do not support standardized testing.

I feel that our present school system is a failure. Where does the blame belong? The blame should be placed in society as a whole. When movie stars receive more attention the politicians, there is something wrong with the basic foundation of our culture.

In no way does school prepare a student to enter the work force. If you want an example, look at the amount of homework students are required to do.

At most jobs, anything over 40 hours is overtime or comp-time. Students and teachers have to do all kinds of work after school. This teaches the student a poor work ethic. The student is not rewarded for putting forth extra effort - besides passing grades. If I put forth extra effort at my job, I want comp-time, or overtime on my pay check. The basic principle of schools teaches the student that if they do extra work, they will not be rewarded, and that is a bad work ethic.

So one thing I would like see changed is how much homework a teacher can give. If a teacher gives a lot of homework, that should be a mark against the teachers performance.

If the teacher gives work to the student to do outside of school, the student must be rewarded, and not just good grades.

When I go past my 40 hours at work, I get something extra. Its called a work ethic. Those types of ethics should be given to children as soon as possible. Teaching kids to work for free will not take them very far in life.

 

[SagaLore]

One of my first answers was to used standardized testing of the students to score the teacher.

You are brilliant. We've gone way too long without standardized testing. Let's get a petition started -





You really need to stop replying to threads like you actually know anything about the topic. Its embarrassing.

That is why I do not support standardized testing.

W

T

F

 

[Texashiker]

You really need to stop replying to threads like you actually know anything about the topic. Its embarrassing.

I just "love" how you take one sentence out of paragraph and use it out of context.

Why didn't you quote where I said I do not support standardized testing?

 

[SagaLore]

I just "love" how you take one sentence out of paragraph and use it out of context.

Why didn't you quote where I said I do not support standardized testing?

I edited my post at the same you wrote this one.

That just makes my head spin even more.

I re-read those 2 posts several times and I cannot parse them into a coherent thought. I give up.

 

[Texashiker]

I re-read those 2 posts several times and I cannot parse them into a coherent thought. I give up.

Those post require you to think to understand them. Maybe its best you give up before you get a headache.

Go play some facebook games or some other mindless drivel.

 

[LurkerPrime]

Except of course that distance learning like that is catastrophic for at risk, unmotivated, or troubled students. Hell, even mid level students are frequently poorly served by internet based learning. If you don't believe me, try out an online class for anything but the most basic subjects and try to get through it learning the least amount possible.

And no, letting the unmotivated/troubled/whatever just fail is not an option.

They would still have to pass a test at a test center and score a passing grade. This wouldn't be like the online learning you take for work, click through and then randomly guess the answers on the "quiz" that you can take unlimited times. Why have thousands of teachers lecturing to students on the same subject (with most doing a shitty job) when you can take a handful of the best and use those.

Hell for motivation you could even offer cash payouts for successful completion of classes/units. With the money you would save on teachers and administration this could be possible.

Most kids are at risk and unmotivated due to failing to learn basic concepts in early grades (due to crap teachers/family involvement) and they are just pushed along with the crowd. This just compounds the problem not just for the students, but also for teachers. Its hard for teachers to teach a student Trig when that student has Cs and Ds in algebra and geometry and can't even grasp the idea of what a cosine is. In addition its hard for that student to be motivated since they are hopelessly lost at that point.

 

[fskimospy]

They would still have to pass a test at a test center and score a passing grade. This wouldn't be like the online learning you take for work, click through and then randomly guess the answers on the "quiz" that you can take unlimited times. Why have thousands of teachers lecturing to students on the same subject (with most doing a shitty job) when you can take a handful of the best and use those.

Hell for motivation you could even offer cash payouts for successful completion of classes/units. With the money you would save on teachers and administration this could be possible.

Most kids are at risk and unmotivated due to failing to learn basic concepts in early grades (due to crap teachers/family involvement) and they are just pushed along with the crowd. This just compounds the problem not just for the students, but also for teachers. Its hard for teachers to teach a student Trig when that student has Cs and Ds in algebra and geometry and can't even grasp the idea of what a cosine is. In addition its hard for that student to be motivated since they are hopelessly lost at that point.

Because teaching is far less about the quality of lecturing and far more about involvement with the students and addressing the needs of individual students. Your ideas of the difficulties of teachers in later grades aside, your plan involves even less teacher involvement overall which would only compound the issue.

Your plan would make the quality of education in America hugely worse.

 

[rudder]

do you reshuffle classes after each grade in the US?

What do you mean by shuffle?

Students in most school systems get assigned to new teachers randomly. So if you mean the same students stay in the same class, no. Schools do some selecting to avoid giving one teacher all the ghetto kids and another teacher all the A+ students. Of course if you are a teacher and piss of the principal, he will give you all ghetto kids.

 

[rudder]

At most jobs, anything over 40 hours is overtime or comp-time. Students and teachers have to do all kinds of work after school. This teaches the student a poor work ethic. The student is not rewarded for putting forth extra effort - besides passing grades. If I put forth extra effort at my job, I want comp-time, or overtime on my pay check. The basic principle of schools teaches the student that if they do extra work, they will not be rewarded, and that is a bad work ethic.

Students can be rewarded for busting ass in school. For one the can get scholarships at school's they may otherwise be unable to attend.

As a parent I encourage my kids to bust ass. If they get a scholarship I can provide them with more luxuries while in school... like an off campus apartment versus sharing a dorm room with 3 other students.

 

[SagaLore]

Most schools I went to, there were 7 classes per day.

I think this is inefficient and counterproductive to brain development. Also, even with a low student/teacher ratio, its unlikely all kids will get one on one time with their teacher.

I think classes should work like queues and be competency based. There should be no more than 2 topics per day. For example, your morning topic will be Math 101.1, and your afternoon topic will be English 131.4. You stay in a topic day after day until you can pass a specific test or finish a specific project. Kids that can pass a topic in a few days will move on to another topic (like Math 101.2, or History 111.5, etc.), while kids that take much longer to competently pass will just take longer. There will be a cutoff if they can't pass- for example 2 weeks of the same topic - and then they'll move on to another topic (again, like History 111.5). They will eventually go back into the topic they couldn't pass and try again. After 2 failed attempts, they will be assigned a mentor/tutor to help them in class since they need extra help with it. For some topics where that particular class is NOT a pre-req to understand the next class, then after 3 failed attempts they will simply mark it as a no-pass and remove it from the schedule for that kid (like History or PhysEd).

The advantage of this is that they can focus more on the same material per day - if you're really good at it, you speed through it, and if you're really bad at it, you aren't forced through it. You can go to sleep each night and wrinkle up your brain and be right on track to learn more about the same thing the next day.

I've always had an issue with the fast paced attention deficit inducing 7 classes a day. I'm sure this sucks for the teachers too, because whereas the kids are seeing 7 different teachers (sometimes 8 if your school implements a "home room"), the teachers are seeing hundreds of kids even with low teacher/student ratios.

 

[Texashiker]

As a parent I encourage my kids to bust ass. If they get a scholarship

So you have your kids bust their butt in the "hopes" of getting a reward.

I do not work 50 hours a week and "hope" my employer pays me overtime.

Nothing towards you rudder, and I do not mean this as an insult, but that mindset of "bust your butt in school and hope you get a scholarship" is part of whats wrong with our school system.

In the real world job market there was certain standards that I "know" will help me get a better review. That review is in black and white, its something I can look at and hold. When my employer gives me my yearly review, I know exactly what he is going to be looking for. I also know what kind of rewards I can expect if my job performance is up-to-par.

In school, you do good, make great grades, do your homework, and what do you get in return? A better job? A guaranteed scholarship? An A on your report card?