Idea for new School System

[Darwin333]

We need more schools, but less grades.

Many schools are too big. Kids get lost in the shuffle. I'm not talking about the teacher/student ratio - I'm talking about the overall student body. There should be a strict limit of how many kids a school can contain.

There should be more total schools - they should be more local community oriented. Property taxes should be paid into a county fund and redistributed evenly among the smaller schools.

To pay for the higher overhead of building and faculty distribution, we should actually have less grades. K through 12? Nah. It should be 1 through 11. K should be a part of opt-in pre-school. For all schools, grades 10 and 11 should have vocation options. I remember a school district where you could opt to take "college prep" courses, or get bussed to another votech school for half a day to learn a trade. I think this setup was efficient and effective, and think it should be available to ALL school districts in the US that have populations large enough to support it.

We keep having these debates about throwing more money at the way the school system is, but I'd rather look at revising the school system itself. It really is a poor setup. Its like someone decided that 13 years of schooling seemed like a good number and just filled up the schedule. Since an Associates Degree is now taken for granted as if its the new high school diploma - we need to cut down the time it takes to get to that point.

I agree completely with the vocational school part, we should make it much easier for kids who aren't going to college to learn a trade.

As far as the schooling part, the biggest issue imho is we are way to focused on kids memorizing specific data. I think we should put way more focus on teaching kids how to "think" instead of simply being able to recite X Y Z.

 

[SagaLore]

In the real world job market there was certain standards that I "know" will help me get a better review. That review is in black and white, its something I can look at and hold. When my employer gives me my yearly review, I know exactly what he is going to be looking for. I also know what kind of rewards I can expect if my job performance is up-to-par.

What do you do for a living? This isn't a reality in the industry I'm in (and not likely for most members of this forum).

 

[Texashiker]

What do you do for a living? This isn't a reality in the industry I'm in (and not likely for most members of this forum).

I work in computers. Before this, I worked in the metal fabrication field (heat exchangers and pressure vessels) for 15 years.

Something else I was thinking about, is how rewards in school compare to the rewards in a real world job market.

Bust your butt in school, not getting straight A's, not getting that scholarship you had hoped for, what are you going to do, change schools? Change schools and hope the classes switch over and hope the degree plan is the same in both schools.

In the real world, if my job does not reward me for busting my butt, I look for another job.

Schools have a monopoly on the education market. Change schools, the classes may or may not match up. You might have a take a few more classes and jump thru more hoops in the hopes of getting a cookie.

 

[SagaLore]

I work in computers.

As in computer repair? You mentioned hourly and overtime. I work in IT but I'm salaried... I work anywhere from 45 to 60 hours per week. That has always been normal for me. I worked that for 5 years with very little change in salary, but then I maneuvered into more important roles and now I'm doing pretty good. Other co-workers who started in the same field at the same time worked their 40 hours consistently. They were always very consistent. They also didn't move up much in their career. Their pay incremented just as consistently. I surpassed them like an exponential curve passes a straight line - both in pay and in position.

But its nice to have a majority workforce that plays it safe. Consistency is good.

 

[Texashiker]

As in computer repair? You mentioned hourly and overtime. I work in IT but I'm salaried... I work anywhere from 45 to 60 hours per week.

I am salary, but I get comp time for anything over 40 hours.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Let me rephrase my post, how about we hire and fire teachers without unions tying the hands of the tax payers.

Get the unions out of the schools, and I bet job performance will improve.

if your students want to fail, there is damn near nothing you can do about it as a teacher.

a friend of mine is a teacher and she literally IS REQUIRED to pass a certain fraction of the class, regardless of what they do. that is simply wrong.

 

[IGBT]

public school tuition needs to happen. You can't keep free loading off the tax payer. If you want kids you pay for em.

 

[mect]

I think the biggest change we need to make is allow teachers to once again fail students. If you aren't competent, you'll fail your swimming lessons, but you'll pass your math class. At least in the state where I live, teachers are not allowed to fail students until high school. At that point, the damage is done. How are you going to pass algebra when you never mastered the concepts in pre-algebra. How are you ever going to pass a chemistry class if you can't do algebra. I understand the arguments about student self esteem, but the reason failing a class is viewed in such a poor light right now is because it is almost impossible to do, and so if you fail a class, it must be really bad. If we failed every student that didn't master the material, it would be common place, and there wouldn't be the negative stigma associated with it.

I think the other big reform I would like is to have core classes based on skill levels, not age levels. Have levels 1-x for math, reading, writing, science, etc. As students get into higher grades, open up more specialized courses, but still based on skill level. You don't move on to the next skill level until you have demonstrated mastery in the previous. You could even have different tracks for the different routes people are planning to take. The only restriction on this would be to keep it flexible enough so that if someone is on a trade school track, they still have a route to get into a university if they desire (or vice versa). Most freshman in college still don't know what they want to do. One of the greatest benefits of America's education system over almost anywhere in the world is the ability to change directions at almost any point in life.

Classes also need to be broken up into smaller increments than a year. It makes no sense for students to continue on for month after month in a course where they already have fallen behind and no longer have the foundation for learning the new material. With the leveled classes, you could have courses only last 3-4 months, and at least in most areas (other than extremely rural regions), each course could be taught every quarter/semester rather than just once a year. This would also allow children to start school at a more uniform developmental level instead of having students just barely 5 starting with students that are almost 6.

I understand there is also an important social aspect to school that may not be met by the skill based class levels. So in addition to the skill tracks, have additional tracks that students can take strictly with their peers. These would be classes that don't contain significant prerequisite material, that are more stand alone type classes. This would give students a chance to ensure they have at least a couple of classes a day that they will progress through with familiar faces, where they don't have to worry about their friends passing while they fall back a class.

 

[mect]

How about we hire and fie teachers based on their job performance, just like the rest of the work force.

We actually do this. All the points you try to make are already being done. Teachers are evaluated, and their job performance rated. I'm not sure about K-12, but at the University level, even with unions, pay is still tied to performance, as movements up the pay ladder are tied to performance. The only thing that the union requires is that employees with identical credentials receive identical pay. I don't think you understand the role of teachers unions. Salary is only one aspect influence by teachers unions. The larger goal is to provide a body for teachers to negotiate with the administrators. Without unions, it isn't that the tax payers suddenly have more say, but rather the administrators have more control, which typically leads to poorer administration and a worse overall working environment for everyone including worse performance. One of the most important factors for a properly functioning school is a good relationship between teachers and administrators, and this is much less likely to happen without a strong teachers union.

 

[GTaudiophile]

We need a dual-track system similar to Germany's.

After a certain grade, say 8, a student decides which track to take: pre-University or vocational to learn a trade skill. Both offer equally acceptable futures.

We also need to start offering a choice of foreign languages as early as first grade. I would suggest Spanish, Mandarin, and German as options. Additionally, the arts need to be promoted: music, theater, choir, photography, etc.

Eliminate the 3-month-long summer and go to a year-round schedule. The school week would also be adjusted to have 90 minute classes, say Math, Language Arts, and Science on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and foreign language and art classes on Tuesday and Thursdays.

To play any varsity sport, you must maintain a 3.0 GPA or better.

Ditch the unions. Adjust pay based on experience of the applicant. For example, a retired Intel computer engineer would qualify for a low six-figure salary. A 20-something with little real-world experience and with maybe a MA/MS might quality for $50K to start.

Ditch the formal testing we have now and give students a final written and oral exam at the end of the year. The grade helps determine whether they advance or not. Whether a teacher remains employed is determined by the percentage of pupils that advance.

Between high-school and college, enforce a "gap" year where students MUST leave the country/North America to perform volunteer work. This work would preferably be suited to their educational track, either pre-U or vocational.

 

[mect]

We need a dual-track system similar to Germany's.

After a certain grade, say 8, a student decides which track to take: pre-University or vocational to learn a trade skill. Both offer equally acceptable futures.

We also need to start offering a choice of foreign languages as early as first grade. I would suggest Spanish, Mandarin, and German as options. Additionally, the arts need to be promoted: music, theater, choir, photography, etc.

Eliminate the 3-month-long summer and go to a year-round schedule. The school week would also be adjusted to have 90 minute classes, say Math, Language Arts, and Science on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and foreign language and art classes on Tuesday and Thursdays.

To play any varsity sport, you must maintain a 3.0 GPA or better.

Ditch the unions. Adjust pay based on experience of the applicant. For example, a retired Intel computer engineer would qualify for a low six-figure salary. A 20-something with little real-world experience and with maybe a MA/MS might quality for $50K to start.

Ditch the formal testing we have now and give students a final written and oral exam at the end of the year. The grade helps determine whether they advance or not. Whether a teacher remains employed is determined by the percentage of pupils that advance.

Between high-school and college, enforce a "gap" year where students MUST leave the country/North America to perform volunteer work. This work would preferably be suited to their educational track, either pre-U or vocational.

The only thing I don't like about Germany's system is if you don't go to the Gymnasium, you will never go to a University (at least according to my understanding). 8th grade is pretty young to make decisions that critical to your future career opportunities. I don't think anything compares to the ability people in this country have at any point in their life to decide they want to take a different path.

Also, determining a teachers continued employment based on test scores is crazy. There will be no teacher stability in school districts with underprivileged students, leading to a worse school environment, putting them at an even further disadvantage.

 

[LurkerPrime]

Because teaching is far less about the quality of lecturing and far more about involvement with the students and addressing the needs of individual students. Your ideas of the difficulties of teachers in later grades aside, your plan involves even less teacher involvement overall which would only compound the issue.

Your plan would make the quality of education in America hugely worse.

Sure... Since teachers that have 30+ students per class for 50min at a time really have the time to address all thier students needs. Kids need to stop being coddled in school. It only leaves them woefully unprepared for college.

With this system a child can take as much or as little time as neccessary to complete a course. Unlike today if little jimmy didn't get fractions this week, well thats too damn bad, the class is moving on to addition and subtraction of fractions, so now he's completely fucked. On the flip side Adam got the concept of fractions on day 1, now he's got to wait a whole other week to learn a new concept.

 

[biostud]

In Denmark we don't give grades until 7th grade, and everyone advance to next level irregardless of the grades. Teachers are required to do a written and oral review of each pupil once or twice every year.

 

[biostud]

Sure... Since teachers that have 30+ students per class for 50min at a time really have the time to address all thier students needs. Kids need to stop being coddled in school. It only leaves them woefully unprepared for college.

While they shall be prepared for further education, you still have to acknowledge that they are children, not adults. Therefore you can't hold them responsible for their own situation to the same degree as adults.

 

[Texashiker]

We actually do this. All the points you try to make are already being done.

In some states its being done.

Kinda like the teacher that was fired for being accused of molesting children. After being fired, the school had to pay the teacher something like $40,000.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/10/mark-berndt-miramonte_n_1268537.html

Why should schools have to pay teachers to resign? That is absurd. To make matters worse, its tax payer money. Its not like schools are some fortune 500 company that can pass expenses down to the customers.

We need unions out of schools.

We need to make it easier for teachers to be held responsible for their actions.

 

[soulcougher73]

Reading, Riting, and Rithmatic?

Ahh. This explains a lot

 

[soulcougher73]

Buildings can be easily constructed. We have plenty of laborers thanks to Obama. Good teachers (who stick around for a few years) are quite rare.

Oh yeah. Sorry i keep forget Obama created the economic collapse we are in.

Hint: Learn to place blame where blame is due.

 

[rudder]

So you have your kids bust their butt in the "hopes" of getting a reward.

I do not work 50 hours a week and "hope" my employer pays me overtime.

Nothing towards you rudder, and I do not mean this as an insult, but that mindset of "bust your butt in school and hope you get a scholarship" is part of whats wrong with our school system.

In the real world job market there was certain standards that I "know" will help me get a better review. That review is in black and white, its something I can look at and hold. When my employer gives me my yearly review, I know exactly what he is going to be looking for. I also know what kind of rewards I can expect if my job performance is up-to-par.

In school, you do good, make great grades, do your homework, and what do you get in return? A better job? A guaranteed scholarship? An A on your report card?

Do you even understand the purpose of the educational system?

Anyway, unless you work for the government nothing is guaranteed. So you bust your ass to get a good review.. then what.. hope the company is profitable so you can get a raise? Some people who are not hourly do work work 50+ hours a week and hope they get compensated for their time.

And how exactly is saying "bust your butt in school and hope you get a scholarship" wrong and something to be construed as what is wrong with out educational system? If my children show drive and good work ethic, and they want to attend college
sans scholarship, I will pay for it. Some kids may bust ass, but not get the grades to get a scholarship nothing wrong with that ethic. You show drive and determination towards a good teacher and you will get something out of the public school system.

 

[Texashiker]

Do you even understand the purpose of the educational system?

Do you understand how broken our education system is?

I value education. I am also disgusted with how the current system is maintained.

Some kids may bust ass, but not get the grades to get a scholarship nothing wrong with that ethic.

There is nothing wrong with a good work ethic.

There is something wrong with a system that does not recognize and/or reward a good work ethic.

Like I said in a previous post, if my job does not reward my work ethic, I can look for another job. If a school does not reward a good ethic and dedication, what are you going to do, go to another school? In a lot of places that is not an option.

Parents are locked into their school district. Sending kids to another school would require the parent to lie or move to another district.

Why is the focus "just" on scholarships? Schools can not help students find jobs? What about job placement? Some schools might do job placement, but a lot do not.

 

[SagaLore]

public school tuition needs to happen. You can't keep free loading off the tax payer. If you want kids you pay for em.

That penalizes children of poor families, those kids won't succeed, and will perpetuate poor families. As a society it is in all of our best interest (including the wealthy) if our children all have an equal chance at education.

 

[mect]

In some states its being done.

Kinda like the teacher that was fired for being accused of molesting children. After being fired, the school had to pay the teacher something like $40,000.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/10/mark-berndt-miramonte_n_1268537.html

Why should schools have to pay teachers to resign? That is absurd. To make matters worse, its tax payer money. Its not like schools are some fortune 500 company that can pass expenses down to the customers.

We need unions out of schools.

We need to make it easier for teachers to be held responsible for their actions.

Because if you read your link, they paid the man to settle out of court. It was the cheapest route forward to get rid of the teacher immediately, because he was fired while he was still under investigation. You see, you can't just fire people on a whim, especially when they are under contract, with our without unions. In this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. That said, the school wanted to put the safety of the students first, and so they immediately fired the man (mid contract). The man then decided to appeal in court, and the school concluded it was cheaper to settle out of court. So how do unions come into play here?

 

[Texashiker]

You see, you can't just fire people on a whim, especially when they are under contract, with our without unions.

In most states, companies can hire and fire at will.

 

[piasabird]

Weed out all the people in schools that dont speak english. Why force schools to deal with illegal immigrants? It just brings down the test scores for a school district. If you want to go to a college and you are from a foreign country you have to make a passing grade on the TOEFEL English test. Either that or you have to take English as a second language. Then if you cant get a high enough proficiency in english, then you cant take any college-level courses.

 

[Exterous]

I think the biggest change we need to make is allow teachers to once again fail students. If you aren't competent, you'll fail your swimming lessons, but you'll pass your math class. At least in the state where I live, teachers are not allowed to fail students until high school. At that point, the damage is done.

You think thats bad? The high school my wife taught at removed the decision to repeat a class from the school administration/teachers and placed it in the hands of the parents (at the parents insistance. The school was being too hard and unfair to kids by making them repeat classes and not be with their friends <- ACUTAL ARGUMENT!) After 4 years of failure they looked at their abysmal test scores and decided it wasn't working. Something about seniors who didn't pass enough classes to be considered a sophmore

Who would have thought that idea would have been a bad one?

Sure... Since teachers that have 30+ students per class for 50min at a time really have the time to address all thier students needs. Kids need to stop being coddled in school. It only leaves them woefully unprepared for college.

With this system a child can take as much or as little time as neccessary to complete a course. Unlike today if little jimmy didn't get fractions this week, well thats too damn bad, the class is moving on to addition and subtraction of fractions, so now he's completely fucked. On the flip side Adam got the concept of fractions on day 1, now he's got to wait a whole other week to learn a new concept.

You do know that even 30+ kids per class isn't recommended right? And do you honestly think that todays kids will be motivated enough to do more work on their own or be part of an even larger class size?

And no - if Jimmy didn't get fractions he is not automatically fucked - there are almost always additional resources available. Tutors, meeting outside of class time etc. god forbid the parents get involved and help

 

[mect]

In most states, companies can hire and fire at will.

Yes, most states have an employment at will doctrine which claims that a person can be fired for no reason. In practice, however, firing someone with no reason is just asking for a lawsuit. Why do you think companies are extremely careful to document employee infractions. Because if they aren't documented, and the company fires the employee, the employee can sue the company for wrongful firing based on the many national employee protection laws (most based on some form of discrimination). In the case of a contracted employee, the employer must document a breach of contract. Even then, the employee still has the right to appeal in court. You do realize all teachers, whether unionized or not, sign a contract at the beginning of each academic year.