Icewind Dale - down in the dumps about magic

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

I think I have about 45 hours in this game now - been playing for about 2 and a half weeks. I decided to start all of my characters out as fighters to get quite a few hit points. I eventually wanted 3 clerics, 1 thief and 2 mages by going dual class at level 9. Right now I have 3 characters with over 100 hit points each.

I finally decided to dual class, mostly because I had run into a number of situations where a thief would be handy, and I wanted to finally be able to heal my characters with the clerics and use the mages attack magic.

I've played another few hours now, and I've gotten my "new" level 1 characters up to level 2. I must say that I'm rather disappointed with the magic users.

For example, my 3 clerics have wisdom of 18, 18 and 17 each. Once I got up to level 2, for some reason I couldn't seem to learn any level 2 spells, even after resting. I had really been counting on being able to use the more effective healing spell.

However, my greatest disappointment is in how the magic system in this game works. I didn't mind losing my great armor, or even the great weapons when my last 2 fighters became mages. I even figured that there would be a limitation on how often I would be able to cast spells in combat - I figured it would only be every other round or so, compared to the twice a round that my fighters could attack.

What I wasn't prepared for was in using my spell once, and then no more for the rest of the battle! What ??!!?? My character went from being able to hit with a blade every round of a battle (twice, actually) to being able to do a single small amount of damage ONE TIME? I also assumed that since the fighters were able to pretty much battle it out on their own, that mages would also be able to use available spells in battle without me having to micro-manage things. Evidently that's wrong too!

I'm so dejected over this that I'm considering not finishing the game at all now. Too bad, because I was close to finishing Dragon's Eye, and I think I might have been past the halfway point of the game.

 

[linster]

That's D&D's magic system. You'll appreciate the growing pains you're going through with mages later on in the game. They'll be very powerful.

 

[Kalmah]

Yeah, as stated above, that is DnD. The class system was originally intended for roleplay settings, not power leveling. In tabletop gaming those low level magic classes have a lot of abilities that are essential such as being able to read scripts, identify items... just being smart. This sort of thing isn't realized in these old computer-based dnd games.

Besides that though, you have to understand the rulesystem. Combing an armor wearing class with an arcane magic class is gimping your character every way possible. Unless you initially planned for it with high dex and taking mage armor type spells. (I'm not even sure if this was viable in 2.0 dnd.. 3.0+ it is...) I don't remember if dex added to ac or not.

Anyways, you have level 9 characters using level 1 spells. Their spell casting is even with a level 1 character... yeah they are going to be useless in that department for a while.

Clerics are kind of a fighter/healer hybrid anyways. They benefit in that they can wear heavy armor and use simple weapons AND cast spells. Mixing with fighter is kind of watering them down in the casting department. (there are huge benefits adding a few levels of fighter in 3.0 dnd but I don't think this was the case in 2.0)

I think it's best to start with a well rounded party instead of trying to round it out later on.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

I also didn't realize that by having my last 2 fighters turn into mages that the armor would actually "pop" off of them. I thought that they could keep the good armor on for a few levels as I found robes and decent replacements. Once they could cast some decent spells, then I planned on taking the armor off and casting the spells. However, the armor suddenly jumped off of them!

On the plus side, though I can't really prove it, it really does seem like it takes a lot less time to rest/heal now that I have clerics in the group.

 

[linster]

You need to make sure you know what you are doing with hybrid classes. They have advantages and weaknesses, as you found out. Read up on how hybrids work before you dive into them.

 

[motsm]

As they level, they will gain spell slots that will allow them to cast multiple lower level spells, and some of the higher level spells are very powerful. Beyond that, the various defensive and buffing spells can be crucial when fighting other casters, at least if you are playing on the difficulty level with no handicap. As has been said, the mistake was not knowing that you should have started out the character as a caster, so they wouldn't be casting level 1 spells vs high level opponents.

These old games certainly require reading the manual, or all of the in game descriptions, but I find learning the ins and outs part of the experience. You also can use the knowledge in Icewind Dale II, the Baldur's Gate series, and Planescape Torment for the most part.

 

[DigDog]

spell levels are earned in odd numbers. lev 2 at character level 3, level 3 at charlev 5, etc. the exception is level 9 which comes at lev 18, if i recall correctly.

dual class characters will (should, depending on what system you are using) be able to use all their past abilities once the second character class reaches a higher level than the first; so, if you level a fighter to lev 9 and the change to mage, you should be able to get your fighter abilities back when you reach mage level 10.

mind you, you will still not be able to wear armour and cast spells which have somatic components, so, the vast majority of them. this is not due to you losing your fighter abilities, but it's an intrinsic limitation of mage spellcasting.

mages are ridiculously OP after about lev 12. even in 3.5 where fighters were killing machines, mages would still humiliate them around lev 15.

me, when i play a modern (3rd edition and above) D&D game, i always go for a lev 1 barbarian, multiclassed to barb1/fighter/thief (or rogue, or whatever they are called now. the mound of skill points rogues have, plus backstab, decent dual wield, hide in shadows (works with backstab), and the incredibly useful skill of being able to use ANY magic item, added to the barbarian rage, move bonus, 12hp 1st die+double con bonus, added to the liberal amount of magic items and trinkets that VG RPGs tend to give you, make this a "click and destroy" build where i dont have to do any thinking.

because, roleplaying, mmk?

oh and in second edition AD&D, i guess a cleric/mage would be the most ridiculous build. *IF* the gamemster allows you to do that; most frown at the idea of arcane+divine magic.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I think I have about 45 hours in this game now - been playing for about 2 and a half weeks. I decided to start all of my characters out as fighters to get quite a few hit points. I eventually wanted 3 clerics, 1 thief and 2 mages by going dual class at level 9. Right now I have 3 characters with over 100 hit points each.

IMO Fighter-mages and Fighter-thieves are pretty poor dual-class options because mages and thieves work best with little/no armor, whereas fighters obviously do well with as much armor as possible. You can of course build a fighter with high dexterity relying on light armor, but it still incurs a casting penalty and at that point with a fighter-mage you're needing too many points in too many attributes for you to be good at anything, really. At this point you may as well just become a bard. Dexterity-fighter-thieves probably work better but again, not the greatest thing in the world IMO. Fighter-clerics are okay because they do well with heavier armor and being a cleric offsets a few of the bigger weaknesses of fighters IMO - crowd control and healing. You're forced to get more Wisdom because of your casting which helps a lot.

Also, HP isn't the be-all and end-all. Since this is a PvE game, you can have effective tanks, where your first 2 characters are fighters/barbarians/paladins and they soak up all the damage while your squishier characters cower behind them and do damage as appropriate. The main weakness of this though is that the person doing most of the talking to NPCs is dumb as a brick.

I finally decided to dual class, mostly because I had run into a number of situations where a thief would be handy, and I wanted to finally be able to heal my characters with the clerics and use the mages attack magic.

See above.

I've played another few hours now, and I've gotten my "new" level 1 characters up to level 2. I must say that I'm rather disappointed with the magic users.

You only get level 2 spells at level 3 wizard. The manual had all this stuff in it, tables about when you get spells, when you get attribute increases, etc. Back when manuals were actually good reading material in and of themselves.

For example, my 3 clerics have wisdom of 18, 18 and 17 each. Once I got up to level 2, for some reason I couldn't seem to learn any level 2 spells, even after resting. I had really been counting on being able to use the more effective healing spell.

Wow, 3 clerics? That's pretty...over the top.

Also, you know how it works, right? You go to the spellbook and you have to choose spells to memorize from the spells you know. You don't automatically have spells at the ready.

However, my greatest disappointment is in how the magic system in this game works. I didn't mind losing my great armor, or even the great weapons when my last 2 fighters became mages. I even figured that there would be a limitation on how often I would be able to cast spells in combat - I figured it would only be every other round or so, compared to the twice a round that my fighters could attack.

There are tables for this too.

What I wasn't prepared for was in using my spell once, and then no more for the rest of the battle! What ??!!?? My character went from being able to hit with a blade every round of a battle (twice, actually) to being able to do a single small amount of damage ONE TIME? I also assumed that since the fighters were able to pretty much battle it out on their own, that mages would also be able to use available spells in battle without me having to micro-manage things. Evidently that's wrong too!

These kinds of RPGs are pretty micro-intensive. From memory you can make it so your characters perform certain actions like attack or not automatically when they see an enemy, but you really should be microing their actions to make them more efficient. That's why the Pause button is the space bar - you use it A LOT. TBH I didn't like the way you couldn't really tell when a round ended or began, which made things real confusing sometimes.

Also, bear in mind that a Level 2 wizard is something you get around 10 minutes into the game if you're playing a pure wizard, whereas going dual-class takes a LONG time to get there, and by the time you do your enemies will be much stronger than a level 2 wizard would get. DPS-wise you're never going to be on par with the enemy if you're going to rely on wizard spells for damage. The way most fighter-wizards are played is you get the wizard levels basically for things that will enhance your physical capabilities - Shield, Tenser's Transformation, etc. Usually intelligence is pretty low for fighter-wizards so you don't get enough spells to cast them to death anyway.

I'm so dejected over this that I'm considering not finishing the game at all now. Too bad, because I was close to finishing Dragon's Eye, and I think I might have been past the halfway point of the game.

Dragon's eye is maybe a third of the way through? It's pretty fun except for the fact it's all indoors - I always liked the outdoor scenes better.

TLDR - find a copy of the manual, cause it explains most of this stuff. Once you get the hang of it though, you get used to it and this stuff becomes less of a problem.

 

[xantub]

The best way to dual-class (not multi-class, that's different) in the old versions of D&D was for a cleric that at level 7 turned wizard, you'll have access to always useful healing spells up to 'cure serious wounds' and when/if you import the characters to IWD2 those first 7 levels will be nothing and the character will keep up to the same levels as the other party members, except that he'll have 'free' healing spells.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

>Dragon's eye is maybe a third of the way through? It's pretty fun except for the fact it's all i

Ah, that makes me feel a bit better then. I was getting worried that I might not have enough challenges left to get up to at least level 10.

Obviously I haven't read the entire manual, but I have spent 3 or 4 hours looking through it. I think they need to do a much better job of explaining some of the basics to people who haven't really played much D&D, but who do have somewhat of a background playing computer rpg's. For example, I've played:

Tunnels of Doom (TI 99/4a) Adventure (text) Zork
Fallout Y's Wizardry VI Shining in the Darkness
Crusaders of Centy Zelda I & II Lunar (Working Designs)
Dungeon Master (but I much preferred Dungeon Hack, based on Eye of the Beholder)
Golvellius Phantasy Star King's Bounty (original and remake)
Albert Odyssey Dragon Force Bard's Tale Ultima Underworld
Avernum series (my 3rd favorite)
Magic and Mayhem (my 2nd favorite rpg)
& my all-time favorite - Betrayal at Krondor, which introduced me to the works of Raymond Feist, including his fantastic book Magician

I'm sure I'm forgetting a dozen or more as well. My least favorite was probably Temple of Elemental Evil - I tried it out for about 10 hours before finally giving up on it. I've read plenty of Dragonlance books, so I'd really like to see some modern games set in the Dragonlance world.

Wait, I can import my characters to Icewind Dale II when I finish this? Hmm - I'm not sure how I feel about that. My first impression was that it might be neat to be able to continue with these guys in another game. However, when I thought about it some more, wouldn't that be sort of like cheating - starting the game out with powerhouse characters? It seems like it would make the first part of ID2 much too easy.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

>Dragon's eye is maybe a third of the way through? It's pretty fun except for the fact it's all i

Ah, that makes me feel a bit better then. I was getting worried that I might not have enough challenges left to get up to at least level 10.

Obviously I haven't read the entire manual, but I have spent 3 or 4 hours looking through it. I think they need to do a much better job of explaining some of the basics to people who haven't really played much D&D, but who do have somewhat of a background playing computer rpg's. For example, I've played:

Tunnels of Doom (TI 99/4a) Adventure (text) Zork
Fallout Y's Wizardry VI Shining in the Darkness
Crusaders of Centy Zelda I & II Lunar (Working Designs)
Dungeon Master (but I much preferred Dungeon Hack, based on Eye of the Beholder)
Golvellius Phantasy Star King's Bounty (original and remake)
Albert Odyssey Dragon Force Bard's Tale Ultima Underworld
Avernum series (my 3rd favorite)
Magic and Mayhem (my 2nd favorite rpg)
& my all-time favorite - Betrayal at Krondor, which introduced me to the works of Raymond Feist, including his fantastic book Magician

I'm sure I'm forgetting a dozen or more as well. My least favorite was probably Temple of Elemental Evil - I tried it out for about 10 hours before finally giving up on it. I've read plenty of Dragonlance books, so I'd really like to see some modern games set in the Dragonlance world.

Wait, I can import my characters to Icewind Dale II when I finish this? Hmm - I'm not sure how I feel about that. My first impression was that it might be neat to be able to continue with these guys in another game. However, when I thought about it some more, wouldn't that be sort of like cheating - starting the game out with powerhouse characters? It seems like it would make the first part of ID2 much too easy.

Icewind Dale 2 has a Heart of Fury mode that makes all the enemies hard - like, really hard. It's supposed to be balanced for characters that have played through IWD2 already. I don't know if you're allowed to import characters between the two games though, IWD2 is supposed to happen 30 years after IWD1, and it's a completely different edition of D&D.

TBH, I liked the second much more than the first, mostly from a mechanics perspective. There are too many things in AD&D that don't make sense to me IMO, like THAC0, that are removed or reworked in 3rd edition D&D.

 

[DigDog]

There are too many things .. that don't make sense to me IMO, like THAC0

negative numbers.
scary stuff.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

negative numbers.
scary stuff.

The thing that was really annoying about it to me was that AC started at 10, but it's THAC0? Why 0?

 

[motsm]

The thing that was really annoying about it to me was that AC started at 10, but it's THAC0? Why 0?

Most scales people are familiar with start at 0, so it seems like a fine base for the THAC system. I do think it would have been more logical if higher numbers were better however, since it would then coincide with attack and damage rolls. This would just make a character starting with 10 AC instead start with -10 and work up.

 

[DigDog]

idk, it seemed pretty straightforward to me. AC 10 means no armor. the basic hit roll is 10. 10+10 = 20. (twenty is the "perfect roll" in D&D)

if the AC is *not* 10, you change one number to add to twenty with the second number. but you are not the first person who hated THAC0, for some reason many people didn't like it.

 

[motsm]

idk, it seemed pretty straightforward to me. AC 10 means no armor. the basic hit roll is 10. 10+10 = 20. (twenty is the "perfect roll" in D&D)

I don't have a major problem with it, but I can't figure out why they reversed the AC scale and nothing else, it just seems so pointless. They did change it in version 3 I believe, so at least they realized it was stupid.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

The obvious answer here is, KENSAI MAGE!!!!!!

 

[DigDog]

well, they needed some subtraction at some point or the other. whatever system you decide to use, you still need a 20 to be the perfect roll.

 

[lupi]

don't understand this. pretty common carrying of the d&d rules as the older games did.

 

[motsm]

well, they needed some subtraction at some point or the other. whatever system you decide to use, you still need a 20 to be the perfect roll.

It's pointless to have, bigger number > smaller number for damage, but not for armor. Furthermore, they don't even keep it consistent for items with an AC bonus, they show up formatted as AC3+2, which actually means AC3-2. So by AD&D math, 3+2=1, but if your talking about a damage roll, 3+2=5. That's not even getting into spells that cause for example -2AC, which actually means a penalty of +2AC.

As I said though, version 3 made everything work on the same consistent scale, so I'm glad they dumped the wacky THAC0 math. It's no biggie of course, just always found it strange.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Mostly an offset to how spectacularly lethal spells could be. You get access to Web at level 3, and that one was a lot more dangerous then it sound. Totally holds anyone who fails their save - and saves weren't exactly great at level 3.

The fighter might be able to kill the golblin or orc, but if that mages gets off the web, then it's just run around and slit helpless throats time.

Kind of funny how many restrictions electronic implementations just flat out ignored though. Don't think there's ever been a DND CRPG sadistic enough to actually implement material components. And they all kind of gloss over how a round was actually supposed to be a minute long, and even basic spells required 6 uninterrupted seconds to cast.

 

[DigDog]

AFAIK, not even P&P groups ever used material components, except maybe for level 9 spells.

 

[motsm]

AFAIK, not even P&P groups ever used material components, except maybe for level 9 spells.

The IE games seem to consider all spells verbal, but I don't recall it coming up beyond an opponent casting silence on you.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

I completely change my thoughts about magic now that my clerics and mages have reached level 6.

haste and slow almost seems to "break the game",
especially when combined with prayer, chant, curse and bless for the party.


I also didn't realize back then that you can add multiples of some of the lower level spells.

As soon as I added haste and slow, my party went from barely being able to defeat large groups of cold wights to easily knocking down the entire group.

 

[DigDog]

well, slow can be saved against, but in general yes, buff spells in D&D can be massive.
still, i'd rather try to turn the wights, those things drain levels!