Icewind Dale - down in the dumps about magic

[Fallen Kell]

The thing that was really annoying about it to me was that AC started at 10, but it's THAC0? Why 0?

Because it made the math easier to do when you were playing by pen and paper. Lower AC is better, so if you have an AC of 10, then you simply add the AC (in this case 10) to your 20 sided dice roll (plus any bonuses you have for the attack from your weapon and situation, and subtract any modifiers that the enemy may have), and if the number is equal to or above the THAC0 value, you hit the enemy.

And if the enemy has an AC of -4, then it is the same calculation, D20 + (-4) + (bonuses/modifiers) => THAC0 = hit; else miss.


If you changed where they started from, the calculation would be more time consuming. For instance, if it was THAC10, D20 + (AC) + (bonuses/modifiers) - 10 => THAC10 = hit. So you just subtract an extra 10 into the calculation that is not needed if it was THAC0.

 

[Midwayman]

Multi-classing a mage is a good way to gimp them IMHO always behind in levels and utility. End up getting saved too often. If I ever multi-class mages its for utility spells that have a lot less utility in a CRPG setting than in the original game.

 

[xantub]

Multi-classing a mage is a good way to gimp them IMHO always behind in levels and utility. End up getting saved too often. If I ever multi-class mages its for utility spells that have a lot less utility in a CRPG setting than in the original game.

Multiclassing yes, but dual classing was awesome.

 

[motsm]

I completely change my thoughts about magic now that my clerics and mages have reached level 6.

haste and slow almost seems to "break the game",
especially when combined with prayer, chant, curse and bless for the party.


I also didn't realize back then that you can add multiples of some of the lower level spells.

As soon as I added haste and slow, my party went from barely being able to defeat large groups of cold wights to easily knocking down the entire group.

Your party will suffer from fatigue after the haste ends, which will make them take more damage, and have their THAC0 and damage penalized for each stage the fatigue reaches. If your rest scumming though, I guess it wouldn't matter as much.

 

[exar333]

Your party will suffer from fatigue after the haste ends, which will make them take more damage, and have their THAC0 and damage penalized for each stage the fatigue reaches. If your rest scumming though, I guess it wouldn't matter as much.

+1.

Also remember that D&D difficulty really goes up and down as you level. For instance, I consider level 1-2 to be VERY dangerous as enemies can often one-hit your lower-HP team members and you don't have anyone high enough to resurrect them on the spot.

Levels 5-10 (IMHO) are often in the player's favor as they are getting strong lvl3 spells like haste, fireball, improved invisibility, cloudkill, etc. These spells definitely are a boon to your party and open-up AOE spell capabilities that just weren't viable in lower levels. Your HP is also much better and you probably have some decent armor to prevent most one-hits.

As you start getting closer to level 15, the enemy battles start to swing back to much more balanced affairs. Enemies now can hit for a LOT more damage and you are hitting much more powerful enemies with a lot more innate abilities and spell and/or damage resistance.

Level 20 and beyond are VERY dangerous levels, assuming you are fighting appropriate CR enemies. You can one-hit your enemies, but they can also get off lucky hits and really pummel you as well.

I played BG and ID (along with table-top a LOT) back in the day and I always got the feeling that the ID series really WANTED you to power-level for best damage and 'role-play' second. It was a real battle-oriented game, rather than BG which was more role-play and battle-ability was a close second. Just different.

If you don't build the right party and level correctly, you can definitely find ID1/2 to be VERY difficult games. Sorry, went on a bit of a tangent here....I did some playtesting for these games back in the day when I worked for WoTC actually, and loved every Infinity-engine title released.

 

[Midwayman]

High level ADnD in the IWD/BG games is very binary. Either you have the right spell up and can wallop them, or you don't have the right resist and get your ass handed to you. Kind of a puzzle game. Recon is super important. Part of the reason they went to a more MMO like attrition system later on.

 

[DigDog]

stuff

i have found it to be practically impossible to Gm any party above lev 15~ish.

this has nothing to do with the combat itself. i agree with you there, PCs need to kill a ton of dangerous enemies to level, and they are bound to fail a save or two every now and then.

but, my - extremely experienced - players never got that far; from burning cartloads of dry hay to smoke a dungeon, to shooting down dragons with ballistas, setting fire to entire forests, caving in liches, and so on, they had the problem solved before the problem could solve itself.

role-playing is a powerful tool, and when you get to play a healer who can cure whole villages, a wizard who can teleport inside banks, a warrior with 200 longbow-shooting armsmen, it's very hard to give them a challenge... unless you decide to pull a dick move and just force them into unreasonable situations ("you are suddenly all teleported into a dungeon, and you have no weapons or magic objects").

 

[exar333]

i have found it to be practically impossible to Gm any party above lev 15~ish.

this has nothing to do with the combat itself. i agree with you there, PCs need to kill a ton of dangerous enemies to level, and they are bound to fail a save or two every now and then.

but, my - extremely experienced - players never got that far; from burning cartloads of dry hay to smoke a dungeon, to shooting down dragons with ballistas, setting fire to entire forests, caving in liches, and so on, they had the problem solved before the problem could solve itself.

role-playing is a powerful tool, and when you get to play a healer who can cure whole villages, a wizard who can teleport inside banks, a warrior with 200 longbow-shooting armsmen, it's very hard to give them a challenge... unless you decide to pull a dick move and just force them into unreasonable situations ("you are suddenly all teleported into a dungeon, and you have no weapons or magic objects").

Great points...

Also, when everyone has 5-6 attackers per round, combat gets pretty tedious. That's where a game like ID1/2 comes-in and can make higher-levels more fun in combat because the system handles the attacks and so forth. That's the only 'negative' I saw with the Icewind dale series, and that is it's HARD to really roleplay a lot. You have to build a very potent, offensive party or die.

 

[shortylickens]

+1.

Also remember that D&D difficulty really goes up and down as you level. For instance, I consider level 1-2 to be VERY dangerous as enemies can often one-hit your lower-HP team members and you don't have anyone high enough to resurrect them on the spot.

Levels 5-10 (IMHO) are often in the player's favor as they are getting strong lvl3 spells like haste, fireball, improved invisibility, cloudkill, etc. These spells definitely are a boon to your party and open-up AOE spell capabilities that just weren't viable in lower levels. Your HP is also much better and you probably have some decent armor to prevent most one-hits.

As you start getting closer to level 15, the enemy battles start to swing back to much more balanced affairs. Enemies now can hit for a LOT more damage and you are hitting much more powerful enemies with a lot more innate abilities and spell and/or damage resistance.

Level 20 and beyond are VERY dangerous levels, assuming you are fighting appropriate CR enemies. You can one-hit your enemies, but they can also get off lucky hits and really pummel you as well.

I played BG and ID (along with table-top a LOT) back in the day and I always got the feeling that the ID series really WANTED you to power-level for best damage and 'role-play' second. It was a real battle-oriented game, rather than BG which was more role-play and battle-ability was a close second. Just different.

If you don't build the right party and level correctly, you can definitely find ID1/2 to be VERY difficult games. Sorry, went on a bit of a tangent here....I did some playtesting for these games back in the day when I worked for WoTC actually, and loved every Infinity-engine title released.

higher levels are tough because enemies have immunities and resistances and you cant handle them like you could before.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

I finally got to Dragon's Eye level 4 - those peaceful guys. I was wandering around for the longest time, trying to figure out what to do here. Finally I got online and used some hints and used the right character to speak with them, and then my party got surrounded by about 25 vengeful monks, a couple of trolls, spellcasters and giant snake creatures. Every single one of us died!

I reloaded and tried again, this time putting most of my party over by the exit from the level, and zipping my 6th character over there as well. This time, I was able to take care of half a dozen characters before too many of them started to show up. I then left the level, rested, and came back.

The next time, I was able to kill the two trolls and the rest of the monks, and nobody was around for a while. I found some bracers which were very helpful in armor class for one of my 2 fighter/mages.

Now I guess I need to explore the level again, expecting to come up against crazy 'peaceful' monk types here and there. Hopefully they have already thrown the bulk of their group at me, and it will be a bit easier. This is the first time in the game when I've been completely and utterly overwhelmed by a huge group of adversaries like this.

 

[exar333]

I finally got to Dragon's Eye level 4 - those peaceful guys. I was wandering around for the longest time, trying to figure out what to do here. Finally I got online and used some hints and used the right character to speak with them, and then my party got surrounded by about 25 vengeful monks, a couple of trolls, spellcasters and giant snake creatures. Every single one of us died!

I reloaded and tried again, this time putting most of my party over by the exit from the level, and zipping my 6th character over there as well. This time, I was able to take care of half a dozen characters before too many of them started to show up. I then left the level, rested, and came back.

The next time, I was able to kill the two trolls and the rest of the monks, and nobody was around for a while. I found some bracers which were very helpful in armor class for one of my 2 fighter/mages.

Now I guess I need to explore the level again, expecting to come up against crazy 'peaceful' monk types here and there. Hopefully they have already thrown the bulk of their group at me, and it will be a bit easier. This is the first time in the game when I've been completely and utterly overwhelmed by a huge group of adversaries like this.

Yeah, I miss the cerebral nature of older RPGs.

 

[DigDog]

i'm just now playing legend of grimrock 2, and at the first puzzle i was "omg, i forgot how to think!"

 

[alcoholbob]

Multi-classing a mage is a good way to gimp them IMHO always behind in levels and utility. End up getting saved too often. If I ever multi-class mages its for utility spells that have a lot less utility in a CRPG setting than in the original game.

Although with the XP cap removed Multi-class characters ended up being the strongest

40/40/40 FMT ftw.