I will never take my car to a shop again...

[Pacfanweb]

^...Your mechanic, I will bet dollars to doughnuts, charges LABOR GUIDE BOOK TIME for his work, not actual work time. Almost guaranteed.

If the book says it takes .8 hrs to replace a part, that's what he charges. If he can do it in .5 hrs, that's to his advantage. If it takes him 1 hr or more, he loses. That's how it works.

It is not possible to charge only for actual time turning the wrenches and make any money. You can't even make 40 hours in a 40 hour week. It's impossible. Think about it....it takes a few minutes just to walk to the parking lot, pull a car into the shop and raise it on a lift, right? Also takes time to road test cars. Takes time to go to wherever you keep your parts, or call the parts store to order parts. Takes time to write up a car and talk to the owner about what's wrong. Takes time to get some push help and push a non-running car into the shop.

As you can see, all these things take time, and doing even one or two of them per day will not allow you to actually work on cars all day.

So here's how your guy is making money: He's either:

a) Charging labor guide time like nearly every other shop in the country

or

b) His labor rate is exorbitantly high to make up for charging only actual working time

or

c) He is an idiot who really only charges for actual working time AND has a labor rate that's in line with other area shops, so he has to work 80+hours a week to make any money.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
^...Your mechanic, I will bet dollars to doughnuts, charges LABOR GUIDE BOOK TIME for his work, not actual work time. Almost guaranteed.

If the book says it takes .8 hrs to replace a part, that's what he charges. If he can do it in .5 hrs, that's to his advantage. If it takes him 1 hr or more, he loses. That's how it works.

It is not possible to charge only for actual time turning the wrenches and make any money. You can't even make 40 hours in a 40 hour week. It's impossible. Think about it....it takes a few minutes just to walk to the parking lot, pull a car into the shop and raise it on a lift, right? Also takes time to road test cars. Takes time to go to wherever you keep your parts, or call the parts store to order parts. Takes time to write up a car and talk to the owner about what's wrong. Takes time to get some push help and push a non-running car into the shop.

As you can see, all these things take time, and doing even one or two of them per day will not allow you to actually work on cars all day.

So here's how your guy is making money: He's either:

a) Charging labor guide time like nearly every other shop in the country

or

b) His labor rate is exorbitantly high to make up for charging only actual working time

or

c) He is an idiot who really only charges for actual working time AND has a labor rate that's in line with other area shops, so he has to work 80+hours a week to make any money.

He charges $100 per hour like most around here. You're saying he couldn't make it on $100 x8 hrs per day, or $4000 per week minus expenses? Plus he makes some money on parts.
But he doesn't work alone, he has a couple of other mechanics, and has a person answering the phone and chasing down parts. So he makes money off of them, too.

And if something wasn't fixed right, it gets fixed for free, of course.

I know it's hard for some of you to believe that there is an honest businessperson out there. Trust me, this guy is gold.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: marincounty
He charges $100 per hour like most around here. You're saying he couldn't make it on $100 x8 hrs per day, or $4000 per week minus expenses? Plus he makes some money on parts.
But he doesn't work alone, he has a couple of other mechanics, and has a person answering the phone and chasing down parts. So he makes money off of them, too.

And if something wasn't fixed right, it gets fixed for free, of course.

I know it's hard for some of you to believe that there is an honest businessperson out there. Trust me, this guy is gold.

Not in an 8 hour day. It is absolutely impossible to charge only for actual working time on the car, and turn 8 hours in an 8 hour day....unless he counts as write up, road testing, ordering parts, etc...all the stuff I mentioned before, as "working on the car".
What's so hard to understand about that?

Let's say you want me to install a part on your car. So you bring it to me. I greet you at the door, and we talk about the work you want done. I write up a work order. Then I greet my other customers that morning, since most people show up first thing. Let's call my time spent with you 10 minutes. Okay, that's 10 minutes out of my 8hr day that I haven't touched a car. Same with the other customers dropping off and picking up cars. And phone calls, etc.

So after I'm done with customers and such, I decide to install your part. I retrieve your keys, go out to the parking lot and pull your car into the shop. I may or may not need to set the rack to lift it. Call that 5 minutes. So that's a minimum of 15 minutes I've spent on you and your car only, that I didn't turn any labor hours.
Now I install your part. it takes me 45 minutes.
At this point, I've spent 1 hour on you and your car, yet you expect me to charge only for the 45 minutes I was actually working on it? Plus I still have to call you and tell you it's ready, plus deal with you again when you show up to pay and pick it up.
Tell me again how a guy working 40 hours can actually produce 40 hours of labor in a week? Answer is, he can't, unless he works more than that.

But given your additional info about your guy's shop having other mechanics and someone who answers the phones and runs parts, that tells me right there that he charges book labor times.
Otherwise, how would he be able to pay the help? Not to mention live in the nice house you say he has and purchase the million-dollar shop you say he bought.

Sorry, he charges book time like the rest of the shops. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's how you make money. I'm sure he's as honest as you say....most mechanics are. There's nothing dishonest about charging labor guide times.

Seriously.....do the doctors you work for start charging less once they've done a procedure a few times and are able to do it faster and more efficiently? Does a hospital operating room cost you less because your surgeon can do the same operation faster than someone else's surgeon? Or do they charge for the procedure regardless?

edited a sentence so it made sense...left out some words

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: marincounty
He charges $100 per hour like most around here. You're saying he couldn't make it on $100 x8 hrs per day, or $4000 per week minus expenses? Plus he makes some money on parts.
But he doesn't work alone, he has a couple of other mechanics, and has a person answering the phone and chasing down parts. So he makes money off of them, too.

And if something wasn't fixed right, it gets fixed for free, of course.

I know it's hard for some of you to believe that there is an honest businessperson out there. Trust me, this guy is gold.

Not in an 8 hour day. It is absolutely impossible to charge only for actual working time on the car, and turn 8 hours in an 8 hour day....unless he counts as write up, road testing, ordering parts, etc...all the stuff I mentioned before, as "working on the car".
What's so hard to understand about that?

Let's say you want me to install a part on your car. So you bring it to me. I greet you at the door, and we talk about the work you want done. I write up a work order. Then I greet my other customers that morning, since most people show up first thing. Let's call my time spent with you 10 minutes. Okay, that's 10 minutes out of my 8hr day that I haven't touched a car. Same with the other customers dropping off and picking up cars. And phone calls, etc.

So after I'm done with customers and such, I decide to install your part. I retrieve your keys, go out to the parking lot and pull your car into the shop. I may or may not need to set the rack to lift it. Call that 5 minutes. So that's a minimum of 15 minutes I've spent on you and your car only, that I didn't turn any labor hours.
Now I install your part. it takes me 45 minutes.
At this point, I've spent 1 hour on you and your car, yet you expect me to charge only for the 45 minutes I was actually working on it? Plus I still have to call you and tell you it's ready, plus deal with you again when you show up to pay and pick it up.
Tell me again how a guy working 40 hours can actually produce 40 hours of labor in a week? Answer is, he can't, unless he works more than that.

But given your additional info about your guy's shop having other mechanics and someone who answers the phones and runs parts, that tells me right there that he charges book labor times.
Otherwise, how would he be able to pay the help? Not to mention live in the nice house you say he has and purchase the million-dollar shop you say he bought.

Sorry, he charges book time like the rest of the shops. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's how you make money. I'm sure he's as honest as you say....most mechanics are. There's nothing dishonest about charging labor guide times.

Seriously.....do the doctors you work for start charging less once they've done a procedure a few times and are able to do it faster and more efficiently? Does a hospital operating room cost you less because your surgeon can do the same operation faster than someone else's surgeon? Or do they charge for the procedure regardless?

edited a sentence so it made sense...left out some words

He makes $100 per hour for his time, and he has two mechanics he pays about $40 per hour including benefits. And he is charging nearly 24 hours per day in labor, or $2400 per day in labor. Minus overhead including the phone person/parts person.

$2400 per DAY income, plus parts profit. I think he can make it okay.

He doesn't need to charge book rates, he is making plenty.

Did you get the message? He's wealthy. Owns a home in Marin and now working on owning his own commercial building.

 

[Pacfanweb]

24 hours a day in labor for 3 guys. Him and two others. That's 8 hours a day per man.

So I'm right....he either charges book times, or they work more than 8 hours a day to do it, because it is absolutely impossible to only charge for your actual wrenching time and still turn 8 in an 8hr day.
That much is obvious to anyone.
If he's billing people 8 hours a day of actual working time, then it's as I said before: He's working more than 8 hours to come up with 8 actual wrenching hours.
But I doubt that.......I still will bet he bills book labor time.

Good for him, he's doing it right.

What message am I supposed to be getting, other than the fact that you don't truly understand how mechanics' labor is charged?

3 guys turn 24 hours a day. 8 hours apiece. Easy to do with book times. Impossible to do if you only charge for ACTUAL WRENCHING TIME. Absolutely impossible, unless what you call "actual wrenching time" includes writing up customers, road testing, pushing non-running cars in, etc. Sorry, but you have to get ahead of the time somewhere to make up for lost time doing these things.
My guess is, as the owner, he probably turns the least labor time out, and his other mechnics turn more than 8 per day. Which would further indicate they use labor guides for their time.

So either I'm right (most likely) or you aren't telling me something like they all work 12 hours per day to turn their 8 hours of labor out. Which I've already accounted for as a possible way to make good money in a shop.

Edit: Maybe he only charges YOU actual labor time...because I assume you are friends since you know so much about how much he makes and how much business his shop does.
But there's no way in hell 3 guys can work 8 hour days and turn 8 hours of labor each while ONLY CHARGING FOR THE ACTUAL TIME THEY ARE WORKING ON SOMEONE'S CAR. There has to be more to the story, and I've already outlined the other possible ways to do this above and in earlier posts.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
24 hours a day in labor for 3 guys. Him and two others. That's 8 hours a day per man.

So I'm right....he either charges book times, or they work more than 8 hours a day to do it, because it is absolutely impossible to only charge for your actual wrenching time and still turn 8 in an 8hr day.
That much is obvious to anyone.
If he's billing people 8 hours a day of actual working time, then it's as I said before: He's working more than 8 hours to come up with 8 actual wrenching hours.
But I doubt that.......I still will bet he bills book labor time.

Good for him, he's doing it right.

What message am I supposed to be getting, other than the fact that you don't truly understand how mechanics' labor is charged?

3 guys turn 24 hours a day. 8 hours apiece. Easy to do with book times. Impossible to do if you only charge for ACTUAL WRENCHING TIME. Absolutely impossible, unless what you call "actual wrenching time" includes writing up customers, road testing, pushing non-running cars in, etc.
My guess is, as the owner, he probably turns the least labor time out, and his other mechnics turn more than 8 per day. Which would further indicate they use labor guides for their time.

So either I'm right (most likely) or you aren't telling me something like they all work 12 hours per day to turn their 8 hours of labor out. Which I've already accounted for as a possible way to make good money in a shop.

What message am I getting, other than you're just a stubborn SOB? Maybe they don't bill 8 hours every day, I'm not checking their books. But if the job took 15 minutes, I'll be charged for 15 minutes, $25.
He's still grossing well over $2k per DAY, do the math.

P.S. It's still too expensive for me, though. I do tuneups, replace alternators, starters, waterpumps, minor brake jobs, etc. myself, because my labor is free.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: marincounty

What message am I getting, other than you're just a stubborn SOB? Maybe they don't bill 8 hours every day, I'm not checking their books. But if the job took 15 minutes, I'll be charged for 15 minutes, $25.
He's still grossing well over $2k per DAY, do the math.

But you just said they bill 24 hours a day. Now you're saying maybe they don't?

And I did the math, with the numbers YOU gave me, and those numbers say that you are either wrong or aren't telling the whole story.

How hard is it to understand what I'm telling you?

I think that maybe I'm not the stubborn one here, but I certainly am the one that understands how shops bill for labor, and the different ways it can be done.

I've listed several different ways the dude can get to the numbers you are claiming.....but simply doing it as you have claimed in this thread UNTIL YOUR LAST POST is impossible, as I've illustrated so a kid could understand it.
But now you're backing off on your numbers. So what is it?
You say they bill 24 hours a day, now you say "I'm not checking their books".

Why haven't you provided any more information, such as how many hours a day they work, etc, to make your claims make sense, rather than just keeping on spouting the "if the job takes xxx minutes, I get charged xxx minutes" line of BS?

YOU are the one who claimed they guy and his employees turned 24 hours a day. And only charging for actual working time, that's IMPOSSIBLE in an 8 hour day.

So help me out here....how does he do it? Does he work more than 8 hours? Does "actual time working on the car" also cover road testing and other non-wrenching time?
What? I'm actually sincerely interested in how they do it.

Edit: yeah, he might be grossing 10k or more per week. But that little word called "Overhead" is a bitch.
Shop rent or payment.
Employee salary.
Benefits.
Garage liability insurance
Used oil disposal
Materials...shop rags, gasses for torches and welders, etc.
Manuals
etc, etc.

If he's paying his guys 1600 apiece, that's 3200 off the top right there. That leaves him under 7k a week, and he hasn't paid the parts runner, yet, or any of his fixed expenses, or his own salary. Sure, he can probably come out with 100k per year after all that, but I'd say there's still more to the labor story that you probably don't know.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: marincounty

What message am I getting, other than you're just a stubborn SOB? Maybe they don't bill 8 hours every day, I'm not checking their books. But if the job took 15 minutes, I'll be charged for 15 minutes, $25.
He's still grossing well over $2k per DAY, do the math.

But you just said they bill 24 hours a day. Now you're saying maybe they don't?

And I did the math, with the numbers YOU gave me, and those numbers say that you are either wrong or aren't telling the whole story.

How hard is it to understand what I'm telling you?

I think that maybe I'm not the stubborn one here, but I certainly am the one that understands how shops bill for labor, and the different ways it can be done.

I've listed several different ways the dude can get to the numbers you are claiming.....but simply doing it as you have claimed in this thread UNTIL YOUR LAST POST is impossible, as I've illustrated so a kid could understand it.
But now you're backing off on your numbers. So what is it?
You say they bill 24 hours a day, now you say "I'm not checking their books".

Why haven't you provided any more information, such as how many hours a day they work, etc, to make your claims make sense, rather than just keeping on spouting the "if the job takes xxx minutes, I get charged xxx minutes" line of BS?

YOU are the one who claimed they guy and his employees turned 24 hours a day. And only charging for actual working time, that's IMPOSSIBLE in an 8 hour day.

So help me out here....how does he do it? Does he work more than 8 hours? Does "actual time working on the car" also cover road testing and other non-wrenching time?
What? I'm actually sincerely interested in how they do it.

Edit: yeah, he might be grossing 10k or more per week. But that little word called "Overhead" is a bitch.
Shop rent or payment.
Employee salary.
Benefits.
Garage liability insurance
Used oil disposal
Materials...shop rags, gasses for torches and welders, etc.
Manuals
etc, etc.

If he's paying his guys 1600 apiece, that's 3200 off the top right there. That leaves him under 7k a week, and he hasn't paid the parts runner, yet, or any of his fixed expenses, or his own salary.

Look, he has very busy shop. Sometimes it will be a few days before they can even look at my car. I'm sure he keeps his mechanics busy 8 hours per day. And he makes money off parts. If he takes time to test drive my car to diagnose it, he charges me for it, and rightfully so.

And he's honest, and he's rich. That's it . I hope you can figure it out and become a wealthy mechanic too.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: marincountyLook, he has very busy shop. Sometimes it will be a few days before they can even look at my car. I'm sure he keeps his mechanics busy 8 hours per day. And he makes money off parts. If he takes time to test drive my car to diagnose it, he charges me for it, and rightfully so.

And he's honest, and he's rich. That's it . I hope you can figure it out and become a wealthy mechanic too.

Now we're getting the rest of the story.

Rich? If you call 100k a year "rich". Depends on where you are, I guess. Not saying it's not to lots of people.

And I've already figured it out, own my own automotive business, thanks. Was just was interested in how this guy is doing it. And obviously it's one of the ways I've posted previously. Certainly not as simple as you originally made it out to be.

And everyone makes money off parts, that's a given.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: marincountyLook, he has very busy shop. Sometimes it will be a few days before they can even look at my car. I'm sure he keeps his mechanics busy 8 hours per day. And he makes money off parts. If he takes time to test drive my car to diagnose it, he charges me for it, and rightfully so.

And he's honest, and he's rich. That's it . I hope you can figure it out and become a wealthy mechanic too.

Now we're getting the rest of the story.

Rich? If you call 100k a year "rich". Depends on where you are, I guess. Not saying it's not to lots of people.

And I've already figured it out, own my own automotive business, thanks. Was just was interested in how this guy is doing it. And obviously it's one of the ways I've posted previously. Certainly not as simple as you originally made it out to be.

And everyone makes money off parts, that's a given.

Now I get it. You're jealous because you don't believe someone can be honest and ethical and make a good living. This guy is making a good living and doesn't feel the need to squeeze every last dollar out of his customers. It's not really that difficult.

I also know that he is a rare individual and I treat him accordingly.

 

[Pacfanweb]

What I get is that you don't know what you're talking about, but that's been obvious for awhile now.

edit: Jealous? Hardly. I could care less to have my own stationary shop. I'm mobile and love it.

I think the problem here is, you spouted off some nonsense that you thought was the case, and when I said that didn't seem likely and REPEATEDLY asked specific questions to get clarification, you then started backpedaling.
You reverted to talking about how rich the guy is, how he's buying or building a million-dollar building. (yeah, everyone who makes 100k can do that. :roll: ), has a nice house, etc.

You kept coming back to those things, rather than answer a single question I asked, any of which would have provided a clear picture.

So it's clear to me that you first spouted off some BS that you believed to be true, but when confronted with specific questions about the situation that you have no idea how to answer, you reverted to the "he's rich and you're not" and "he's honest and you're not" insults, since you don't know the answers.

Seriously....how do you think he gives prices for the work he does? Tells everyone "Oh, we won't know the labor price until we actually do the work and see how long it takes and that's how much we'll charge you"???

Sure, an experienced mechanic knows the labor times for lots of things, but not everything.
That's why there are labor guides, which this guy's shop uses just like everyone else.

Now, does he use the labor guide for everything? Probably not. If you've known him for a long time, he may well only charge you for actual working time. But that's not the way it's done for everyone, and again, THERE IS NOTHING DISHONEST ABOUT THAT.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I will never take my car to a shop again...

I will. I don't have the time or the patience to deal with repairing my own cars. I will gladly take them to the dealership for repairs/maintenance.