I was only following orders!

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: chess9
The average soldier should carry a large part of the blame. Without an understanding of basic human rights at E-1 level, how can we expect to have a military we are proud of? That girl comes across as an empty shell, completely devoid of an understanding of the long line of proud soldiers who came before her and gave their lives. Duty, honor are important concepts these people missed.

Having said that, there is plenty of blame to go around and I'd personally START at the top with Rumsfeld, Wolfawitz and Feith. Let the voters decide about Bush.

-Robert

AT least Mr Feith who ordered that representatives of the Judge Advocate General's (JAG) office should no longer monitor interrogations to ensure that they adhered to the Geneva Conventions as had been done in the past.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/index_np.html

 

[chess9]

Dahunan:

Well, I think that's one of the good arguments for firing Rumsfeld, and getting our sorry butts out of Iraq.

But, every soldier should receive instruction in basic training about the Geneva Convention. MPs should receive advance training in the issue and how to properly handle prisoners.

Also, why was Intel given so much leeway, AND BY WHOM? Lots of questions.

-Robert

 

[TravisT]

I'm not saying that those who gave orders (which I believe they were given orders to do these things) arn't wrong... but...

This falls under the simple argument I learned in the 3rd grade.

'If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?'

 

[mastertech01]

Since when did being a reservist mean you have no training? They are primarily former active duty soldiers. Those whom arent still go to basic training, Advanced individual training, and two weeks of drill during the summer, not to mention thier monthly drill and other training opportunities.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: TravisT
I'm not saying that those who gave orders (which I believe they were given orders to do these things) arn't wrong... but...

This falls under the simple argument I learned in the 3rd grade.

'If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?'

Depends. Is my family going to loose our house and my kids won't eat if I don't? Hell tortures easy choice.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

LOL - did you fall asleep halfway through? Did you miss the part where Jack Nicholson, the commanding colonel, was led out of the courtroom in MP custody, after admitting he gave the orders?

I have no idea of the extent of the present scandal, but at a minimum it will require a VERY careful independent review to determine who was in charge, who knew what was going on, and when. My guess is that there had to have been a systemic problem that went far beyond the 6 GIs presently accused, but we shall see. I think it would be a grave miscarriage of justice if 6 enlisted soldiers paid the price alone, if it proves to be the case that they were acting under either direct or indirect guidance from above.

 

[TravisT]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TravisT
I'm not saying that those who gave orders (which I believe they were given orders to do these things) arn't wrong... but...

This falls under the simple argument I learned in the 3rd grade.

'If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?'

Depends. Is my family going to loose our house and my kids won't eat if I don't? Hell tortures easy choice.

Doing what is right isn't always as difficult as it may seem. Now who's going to hire a person other than the local Wal-Mart or McDonalds with a discharge of that kind? I wouldn't want them associated with me or my company.

If they would have done what was right in the first place, what would the corporal's there have said? 'I'm going to go to a higher rank than me to get you fired because you won't torture someone'?.... doubt it.

 

[Zebo]

Doing what is right isn't always as difficult as it may seem.
--------------


Really?

Seemed pretty f-ing difficult if you ask me when the tortue is so wide spread thoughout all our .mil prisons latley.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/07/usint8556_txt.htm

This is a leadership failure plain and simple.

 

[arsbanned]

Some of the techniques I've seen in the pictures (and some not) are taught on a regular basis in the U.S. The black hoods, pushing, shoving, locked in tiny dank cells and made to hold a certain position for hours on end, forced to sh*t in a can, slapped around, verbally abused (your mother is a whore isn't she), brought to the edge of conciousness by asphyxiation and drowning, forced marched, etc etc...
Hell I served at one of these training facilities. SEER. Great stuff.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Since when did being a reservist mean you have no training? They are primarily former active duty soldiers. Those whom arent still go to basic training, Advanced individual training, and two weeks of drill during the summer, not to mention thier monthly drill and other training opportunities.

That's cool .. SO why did the Armed Forces give such orders - seems to me that they would be better trained than the reservists?

 

[Shelly21]

I remember an experiment where people were told to press a button that would shock the other person in another room. They often would do it just because they were ordered to. It's a study on the authority figures.

There are limits of course... jumping of the cliff? no, torture Iraqis who tried to kill our soldiers? sure, no problem. I'm sure there a lot of guys here on AT that would line up to abuse Iraqis (especially if the prisoners were labeled "terrorist")

 

[Gaard]

see sig

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Do you really think that a young and impressionablr National Guard/Weekend Warrior
would dare go against the authority of an NCO or Officer in a war zone where the penalty
for failing to follow an order - right or wrong is treason - and carries the death penalty ?

I joined at 20. I was E1 at join, E4 at discharge (would have been E5 in another 4 months or so). I refused certain orders I had objection to. It was still during the Gulf war, though I wasn't in a forward area. They threatened me with captains mast/court martial. I refused again, and again, and again, and for the two years of my enlistment I never ONCE agreed to anything I thought was wrong.

You can't pass this off on anything but lack of personal responsibility and moral fortitude. If something is wrong, you oppose it to the death. Period. They were weak, they were bad people at heart. They followed bad orders because of it. They deserve equal punishment to those that gave the orders.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
There's a lot of big talk about how following orders isn't an excuse, but military command breaks down when orders aren't followed. These guys are trained to follow orders, orders they may not even like or want to carry out, they know they have a heap of trouble waiting for them if they don't, and they have 'doing it for my country' as justification. I think following orders is a completely valid excuse in England's case, though the further you get towards actual torture and further you go up the chain of command the less of an excuse it becomes.

You're totally wrong. The ONLY orders that need to be, or should be followed are LAWFUL ORDERS. Anything unlawful, anything which violates the Constitution of the United States, is just so much wind and you stand up and say "Sir/Madam, that order is unlawful. Under the UCMJ I am hereby officially refusing to carry out such orders now and in the future. I request to be relieved of duty effective immediately pending investigation and furthermore request immediate contact with legal counsel." Then you write your senator, the United Nations, a couple dozen representatives of various media and human rights organizations, the company religious leader, your commanding officers superior, the joint chiefs, the secretary of defense, etc and make it KNOWN that while they might manage to court martial you, it will NOT happen quietly or without repurcussions.

Trust me, I did it many MANY times during my enlistment (though I never had to go that far because they ALWAYS backed down). The only thing you are REQUIRED to do in the military is obey LAWFUL orders. That's it. If you question the lawfullness you have a right and a responsibility to question it and bring it to the attention of others who's job it is to investigate such things.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

click

soldiers actually have a duty NOT to follow "unlawful orders"

the excuse(and yes, that is what it is) "well i was just folowing orders" is no excuse. just more of the moderen american penchant to make personal responsibility passe'

So the military culture would accept the whistleblower? They should have told on the order givers immediately, right?

Their acceptance is utterly irrelevant. Only truth matters. Only right and wrong. You do what's right, ALWAYS. If people don't like it, screw them. If they try to hurt you over it, kill them, or at the very least defend yourself to the best of your ability. Tell the truth, to all who'll listen. The truth is all that matters in these situations. Eventually, all the idiot a$$holes who are in charge in government and the military would be driven out and replaced with people loyal to the ideals of the nation and its people instead of the rulers and themselves.

You can refuse orders, based on lawful procedures. They can court martial you if it's deemed you acted incorrectly. That's only fair too. You do what you think is right, they do what they think is right. Be open, and honest, and remain true. That's all anyone can or should do.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TravisT
I'm not saying that those who gave orders (which I believe they were given orders to do these things) arn't wrong... but...

This falls under the simple argument I learned in the 3rd grade.

'If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?'

Depends. Is my family going to loose our house and my kids won't eat if I don't? Hell tortures easy choice.

Then you are a bad person at the core. There are ALWAYS other ways to provide for yourself and your family other than moral decay. Always. Do what's right. It's more important than the lives of every man woman and child on this planet. Do what's right. Always. There IS NOTHING else.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Shelly21
I remember an experiment where people were told to press a button that would shock the other person in another room. They often would do it just because they were ordered to. It's a study on the authority figures.

There are limits of course... jumping of the cliff? no, torture Iraqis who tried to kill our soldiers? sure, no problem. I'm sure there a lot of guys here on AT that would line up to abuse Iraqis (especially if the prisoners were labeled "terrorist")

That's because a lot of people are bad at the core. Others are simply ignorant. That doesn't make it ok or right or true.

 

[Pepsei]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Shelly21
I remember an experiment where people were told to press a button that would shock the other person in another room. They often would do it just because they were ordered to. It's a study on the authority figures.

There are limits of course... jumping of the cliff? no, torture Iraqis who tried to kill our soldiers? sure, no problem. I'm sure there a lot of guys here on AT that would line up to abuse Iraqis (especially if the prisoners were labeled "terrorist")

That's because a lot of people are bad at the core. Others are simply ignorant. That doesn't make it ok or right or true.

The Christian belife is that everyone are basically born evil. I tend to agree with that.

 

[mastertech01]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Since when did being a reservist mean you have no training? They are primarily former active duty soldiers. Those whom arent still go to basic training, Advanced individual training, and two weeks of drill during the summer, not to mention thier monthly drill and other training opportunities.

That's cool .. SO why did the Armed Forces give such orders - seems to me that they would be better trained than the reservists?

Exactly the questions we need to hear answers to, not speculate on. I have a question looming large in my mind, and that is why Military Policemen who know the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and whom above all other personnel have the power and authority to refuse to obey an unlawful order to conduct a criminal act, still follow through? There are way to few facts here at this time for anyone to give an honest assessment of what occured and by whom. Anyone in the chain of command could have stopped an illegal order from passing all the way down to the troop level, so what the hell is the truth here? We need to excercise caution before making assumptions.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Since when did being a reservist mean you have no training? They are primarily former active duty soldiers. Those whom arent still go to basic training, Advanced individual training, and two weeks of drill during the summer, not to mention thier monthly drill and other training opportunities.

That's cool .. SO why did the Armed Forces give such orders - seems to me that they would be better trained than the reservists?

To have the inexperienced do the dirty work and then disavow any orders given?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TravisT
I'm not saying that those who gave orders (which I believe they were given orders to do these things) arn't wrong... but...

This falls under the simple argument I learned in the 3rd grade.

'If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?'

Depends. Is my family going to loose our house and my kids won't eat if I don't? Hell tortures easy choice.

Then you are a bad person at the core. There are ALWAYS other ways to provide for yourself and your family other than moral decay. Always. Do what's right. It's more important than the lives of every man woman and child on this planet. Do what's right. Always. There IS NOTHING else.

It was projection, relax dude, five replies in this thread back to back and you missed my first post. Stop talking and start listening. I agree with you probelm is everyone deosnt.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TravisT
I'm not saying that those who gave orders (which I believe they were given orders to do these things) arn't wrong... but...

This falls under the simple argument I learned in the 3rd grade.

'If someone told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?'

Depends. Is my family going to loose our house and my kids won't eat if I don't? Hell tortures easy choice.

Then you are a bad person at the core. There are ALWAYS other ways to provide for yourself and your family other than moral decay. Always. Do what's right. It's more important than the lives of every man woman and child on this planet. Do what's right. Always. There IS NOTHING else.

It was projection, relax dude, five replies in this thread back to back and you missed my first post. Stop talking and start listening. I agree with you probelm is everyone deosnt.

Sincerest apologies...at work with dander up. 8-( Sorry.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

click

soldiers actually have a duty NOT to follow "unlawful orders"

the excuse(and yes, that is what it is) "well i was just folowing orders" is no excuse. just more of the moderen american penchant to make personal responsibility passe'

You are not a soldier, you have no idea what it means to disobey a direct order in a war zone.

It is no excuse for the soldier, but this happened because of bad leadership.

It takes a bit more than you got, or ever have had to be in combat, so i am NOT surprised that you do not get that.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

click

soldiers actually have a duty NOT to follow "unlawful orders"

the excuse(and yes, that is what it is) "well i was just folowing orders" is no excuse. just more of the moderen american penchant to make personal responsibility passe'

So the military culture would accept the whistleblower? They should have told on the order givers immediately, right?

yes it would, but as a former soldier myself what would i know about it? in answer to the second question, yes. not only is it the right thing to do, it will keep you from being court martialed.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

click

soldiers actually have a duty NOT to follow "unlawful orders"

the excuse(and yes, that is what it is) "well i was just folowing orders" is no excuse. just more of the moderen american penchant to make personal responsibility passe'

You are not a soldier, you have no idea what it means to disobey a direct order in a war zone.

It is no excuse for the soldier, but this happened because of bad leadership.

It takes a bit more than you got, or ever have had to be in combat, so i am NOT surprised that you do not get that.

i was in the united states army from 1987-1991. does that count as "being a soldier"? i think it does. in fact i still live here at fort hood(i had my OSUT at fort lost in the woods) my MOS was a 12 bravo.

you are obviously one of those self proclaimed "open minded" people that in fact turn out to be more judgemental than most, and totally wrong in your small minded pronouncements...who is of the opinion everyone else is opinionated, and brands everyone that disagrees with them as "narrow minded" because they do not think the same as they do...in short you seem a typical liberal.

you say you were in the army, well if you were then you know as i do the army is made up of people, and like all people some behave better than others, just as they did "back on the block" i have served with one type of person i would trust with my life... others i would not dare turn my back on

so you can get that chip off your soldier, your DI should have knocked it off there whenever you went in, he obviously failed. he obviously did not teach you(or you forgot) to get the facts before you run your mouth.

maybe you should come to fort hood, i could get you squared away pretty quickly i bet.