I was only following orders!

 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
I believe it. I don't believe for one minute them soldiers were doing what they were doing without approval from their superiors. She's just gonna be the one to swing for it
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
This is common knowlegde. OF COURSE THEY WERE under orders. From the General Tabuga report:

"Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability.""


General Taguba goes into some detail, describing the key role played by this gang of four in permitting and even orchestrating the abuse.

Then you have all the soldiers singing the exact same tune, even ones not charged.
 

Passions

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2000
6,855
3
0
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
That won't fix the problem. The governemnt at the highest levels has instiutionalized torture. This is a reason we went after Saddam remember? And every other cruel dictator. I'm truley ashamed of what my governemnt has become. From asassisating it's own citizens (rubi ridge/waco) to ignoring all the international protocols we helped draft and natually signed. Ronald Reagan used to say we should be a "City on a hill" for everyone to look at, admire, and emluate as a beacon of justice, democracy, and freedom but noe were just a bunch of thugs who happen to have the biggest guns.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

Do you understand that the people WHO GAVE THE ORDERS SHOULD ALSO BE COURT MARTIALED? AND that the US Govt. is PUTTING ALL THE BLAME ON THE FEW SOLDIERS - so as not to make it look like THIS IS COMMON MILITARY PROCEDURE..

Passions URBLIND
 

Bowmaster

Senior member
Mar 11, 2002
523
0
0
Isn't she the one in the picture laughing and pointing the one of the prisoners genitals? I guess they made her do that, too...
 

Lynx516

Senior member
Apr 20, 2003
272
0
0
Thew Nurenburg Trials showed that the plea of following orders was void. It is better to disobey an order that breaches the Geneva convension and then get court marshalled for it (Cannot be convicted as the order would be illegal) Than to inflic tourture and humillitation on innocent (even if they arnt this is not the way to interrogate prisoners as it gives them somethign to hang onto).
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Lynx516
Thew Nurenburg Trials showed that the plea of following orders was void. It is better to disobey an order that breaches the Geneva convension and then get court marshalled for it (Cannot be convicted as the order would be illegal) Than to inflic tourture and humillitation on innocent (even if they arnt this is not the way to interrogate prisoners as it gives them somethign to hang onto).

In reality though many people place thier careers above thier morals if they ever had any in the first place. The girl linndy, was trailor park trash, from one of the poorest countys in the united states, the Army was her only way out and to expect her to jeapodise that is niave IMO.
 

InfectedMushroom

Golden Member
Aug 15, 2001
1,064
0
0
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

Those that gave the orders are even more responsible than those who followed it. They need to be court marshalled as well.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Do you really think that a young and impressionable National Guard/Weekend Warrior
would dare go against the authority of an NCO or Officer in a war zone where the penalty
for failing to follow an order - right or wrong is treason - and carries the death penalty ?
 

Lynx516

Senior member
Apr 20, 2003
272
0
0
I agree that many people would put their careers above their morals. However was her career likely to go any where. As you said she was trailer trash the likely hood of her being made leadership is unlikly.

My point still stands the defence of "I was following orders" was deemed to be non valid by the Nurenburg Trials.

Captn Kirk if she refused the crime of failing to follow that order woudl not be treason as it is an illegal order therefore it is not a valid order hence it is impossible to disobey.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Lynx516
I agree that many people would put their careers above their morals. However was her career likely to go any where. As you said she was trailer trash the likely hood of her being made leadership is unlikly.

My point still stands the defence of "I was following orders" was deemed to be non valid by the Nurenburg Trials.

Captn Kirk if she refused the crime of failing to follow that order woudl not be treason as it is an illegal order therefore it is not a valid order hence it is impossible to disobey.

Yup. oogly tt at that. :disgust:
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Lynx516
I agree that many people would put their careers above their morals. However was her career likely to go any where. As you said she was trailer trash the likely hood of her being made leadership is unlikly.

My point still stands the defence of "I was following orders" was deemed to be non valid by the Nurenburg Trials.


She would have been kicked out AND PROBABLY under some BULLSH!T guise of "dihonorable discharge" if she told the commanding officer to go fvck himself LIKE SHE SHOULD HAVE!
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
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There's a lot of big talk about how following orders isn't an excuse, but military command breaks down when orders aren't followed. These guys are trained to follow orders, orders they may not even like or want to carry out, they know they have a heap of trouble waiting for them if they don't, and they have 'doing it for my country' as justification. I think following orders is a completely valid excuse in England's case, though the further you get towards actual torture and further you go up the chain of command the less of an excuse it becomes.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

Those that gave the orders are even more responsible than those who followed it. They need to be court marshalled as well.

Sometimes in crimminal preceedings you have to let the little fry go to get the big cheese. Immunity should be given to these foot soldiers for testimony to find the real war crimminals and stop the bleeding and harm they are causing to our once great nation.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

Those that gave the orders are even more responsible than those who followed it. They need to be court marshalled as well.

Sometimes in crimminal preceedings you have to let the little fry go to get the big cheese. Immunity should be given to these foot soldiers for testimony to find the real war crimminals and stop the bleeding and harm they are causing to our once great nation.


AH HA HA... absolutely correct.. but the Big Fry is RUMMY himself.. you think he would let it get that far?
 

IndieSnob

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2001
1,340
0
0
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

I think on behalf of all the sane people on Anandtech, I'd like to plead with you to get some sort of mental help. Your warped right-wing dementia is out of control, and at some point I think you're just going to snap.


On second though, keep posting and don't get help, it makes my day to see how uninformed, ignorant, and just plain stupid you really are. Have you ever served a day in the military or are you so ignorant that you think a hollywood portrayal is the read deal? When a CO tells you to do something, you do it, and to not hold the others accountable is just as stupid. Try getting an f'n clue next time before you post such drivel.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

Those that gave the orders are even more responsible than those who followed it. They need to be court marshalled as well.

Sometimes in crimminal preceedings you have to let the little fry go to get the big cheese. Immunity should be given to these foot soldiers for testimony to find the real war crimminals and stop the bleeding and harm they are causing to our once great nation.


AH HA HA... absolutely correct.. but the Big Fry is RUMMY himself.. you think he would let it get that far?


No the civilian contractors at the immdeiate command level have already been whisked away to austraila and other parts unknown to bury it. No chance they'll testify either. Same carp will continue but with more attention paid to photo takers.


link
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
0
0
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

click

soldiers actually have a duty NOT to follow "unlawful orders"

the excuse(and yes, that is what it is) "well i was just folowing orders" is no excuse. just more of the moderen american penchant to make personal responsibility passe'
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
451
0
0
Originally posted by: Passions
This reminds me of "A Few Good Men"

Following orders huh? Suck it up and take the punishment, you followed it, you did it, now you pay for it.

Bunch of whiners trying to unload the blame.

This coming from someone who has never put on a military uniform in her life. Go back to where you came from.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

click

soldiers actually have a duty NOT to follow "unlawful orders"

the excuse(and yes, that is what it is) "well i was just folowing orders" is no excuse. just more of the moderen american penchant to make personal responsibility passe'


So the military culture would accept the whistleblower? They should have told on the order givers immediately, right?
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
The average soldier should carry a large part of the blame. Without an understanding of basic human rights at E-1 level, how can we expect to have a military we are proud of? That girl comes across as an empty shell, completely devoid of an understanding of the long line of proud soldiers who came before her and gave their lives. Duty, honor are important concepts these people missed.

Having said that, there is plenty of blame to go around and I'd personally START at the top with Rumsfeld, Wolfawitz and Feith. Let the voters decide about Bush.

-Robert
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: chess9
The average soldier should carry a large part of the blame. Without an understanding of basic human rights at E-1 level, how can we expect to have a military we are proud of? That girl comes across as an empty shell, completely devoid of an understanding of the long line of proud soldiers who came before her and gave their lives. Duty, honor are important concepts these people missed.

Having said that, there is plenty of blame to go around and I'd personally START at the top with Rumsfeld, Wolfawitz and Feith. Let the voters decide about Bush.

-Robert

They were national guard.. and were not given proper training.. When Bush rushes to war.. and keeps pulling Americans off the street to go fight his war then the training suffers.