I want to design microprocessors... which program do I choose?

[pitz]

Add a management or business degree and you're gold. Even though a lot of the monkey work (e.g. rank and file engineering positions doing the tedious programming, design, or verification work) is being off-shored, the product development, department management, and project leader positions are not.

I disagree here too. All that stuff is being offshored, and you can't get into a MBA program without work experience. And not everyone can be managers or management either.

Engineers have done okay getting 'business' qualifications because the financial industry has been hugely influential in the past 20-30 years, but that era is coming to an end as well.

 

[DanDaManJC]

I disagree here too. All that stuff is being offshored, and you can't get into a MBA program without work experience. And not everyone can be managers or management either.

Engineers have done okay getting 'business' qualifications because the financial industry has been hugely influential in the past 20-30 years, but that era is coming to an end as well.

So, out of curiosity, what then would be a good field to get into? Ruling out the obvious -- like either being really lucky or intelligent.

edit:
here's the US govt outlook on engineering:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm

has info on other careers too

 

[CountZero]

Basically, yes. Unless you find a good internship with a company that happens to be hiring graduates, you're pretty much going to be in for a very rough ride. If you graduate during a recession and can't find a job straight out of school, your career is basically ruined. I'm not making this stuff up -- I know dozens of people from 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 graduating classes who have never been able to enter the workforce, in any capacity. Even Wal-Mart won't hire them because they're considered to be "overqualified".

If you don't believe me, read this study:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411562_salzman_Science.pdf

Page 35 -- only 1/3rd of US STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Manufacturing) grads are working in STEM occupations. Of those who are even working at all, only 2/3rds are in STEM, so the effective unemployment rate of STEM graduates is 50%.

The other startling statistic -- people with a higher GPA have a lower probability of being employed.

Page 47, in Computer Science/Math, for 1995 grads, only 49% were employed in STEM occupations. This was during the late 1990s, when high tech had great salaries, and Silicon Valley was going nuts.

The reality is, the computer industry is very sick (as evidenced by the super-low prices people pay for stuff, and the poor employment prospects), and there is a massive glut of people chasing a very limited number of jobs.

Then you know dozens of morons, sorry. If you can't get gainfully employed in 9 years you aren't really trying. If you just mean in what they went to school for I can completely see that happening. But everyone that graduates in a recession is in the same god awful spot with just a handful of exceptions that change for every recession. On the flip side if you graduate when things are up then you can end up in a very good spot.

 

[e_marston]

I recommend choosing a school with a good COOP program. I've been out few years and do have a Computer Engineering degree but primarily work in Systems Engineering now. Many of my classmates did go into processor development and such, their way into the company was via being a COOP. I went to Georgia Tech, but I'm sure there are plenty of other good schools out there. Go somewhere where you can network, which is the key to getting an opportunity. COOPing is merely a great way to do so.

As for the doom and gloom. There are plenty of opportunities out there, you just have to be open. Maybe it's at an Intel, maybe not. I do just fine and while I don't develop processors, I can't complain about how things worked out. You may have to move to get to where you would like to go, but in the end it's all what you make of it.

Good luck!

 

[CountZero]

I recommend choosing a school with a good COOP program. I've been out few years and do have a Computer Engineering degree but primarily work in Systems Engineering now. Many of my classmates did go into processor development and such, their way into the company was via being a COOP. I went to Georgia Tech, but I'm sure there are plenty of other good schools out there. Go somewhere where you can network, which is the key to getting an opportunity. COOPing is merely a great way to do so.

As for the doom and gloom. There are plenty of opportunities out there, you just have to be open. Maybe it's at an Intel, maybe not. I do just fine and while I don't develop processors, I can't complain about how things worked out. You may have to move to get to where you would like to go, but in the end it's all what you make of it.

Good luck!

Yes, the importance of coops and internships can not be overstated. If they don't directly lead to a job offer (and many of them do) the experience is immensely helpful in getting a full time.

I also found that the name of the company you intern at alone can make a big difference. I did a summer at IBM between my two grad years and even though the experience was tangentially related at best. I think it helped at the HR sort of filtering level, though I don't really know. Anyways it was a surprise to me how many times I heard "Wow, IBM, nice" or some variation.

 

[Mothergoose729]

I recommend choosing a school with a good COOP program. I've been out few years and do have a Computer Engineering degree but primarily work in Systems Engineering now. Many of my classmates did go into processor development and such, their way into the company was via being a COOP. I went to Georgia Tech, but I'm sure there are plenty of other good schools out there. Go somewhere where you can network, which is the key to getting an opportunity. COOPing is merely a great way to do so.

As for the doom and gloom. There are plenty of opportunities out there, you just have to be open. Maybe it's at an Intel, maybe not. I do just fine and while I don't develop processors, I can't complain about how things worked out. You may have to move to get to where you would like to go, but in the end it's all what you make of it.

Good luck!

I will definitely be looking for something like that thanks

 

[Eskimo]

Mothergoose729
Congrats on knowing what you think you want to do so early in life and taking the initiative to research it. You are way ahead of the curve. Like everyone else has said you would be well served with either a CE or EE degree. If you are thinking about future flexibility with your degree think about what else you might like to do besides design work. With a CE you could transition into a lot more software programming roles. With an EE you could transition at some later point in life into something like power generation, smart grids, equipment design, etc.

I saw you mentioned you had read the Pentium Chronicles and want to be part of the 4 year cycle. Realize that there are quite a number of different types of jobs which get done in that 4 year cycle by discrete groups of people. There are teams that follow a particular product from start to finish but many of the groups are working on that product for a year and then pass it off to the next group and start in on the next generation product. I guess what i'm trying to say is that there are many options in what you could actually do for microprocess design. You could be end up doing architecture, RTL, verification, CAD, test, etc etc. and contribute to a working microprocessor.

e_marston is right on the money with his/her advice about finding a school with a good co-op program. That is the route that myself and nearly all of my friends took into the industry. Most of us had full time offers by the beginning of our senior years.

A couple extra thoughts for you. There are a ton of great opportunites for doing some really cool design work in smaller companies now of days. Only problem is these companies hire new college grads much less frequently. But don't overlook them because they are the ones growing the fastest. Nvidia, Qualcomm, and ARM all used to be much much smaller than they are today.


Now on to my poor friend pitz. You've either led a truly unlucky life or are just not well informed.

In my experience, its rare to find people in the industry that are under 35, because the last hiring cycle was back in the late 1990s, at least in North America.

I have a large number of friends, all under 35, all working in design engineering roles at one of the Big 3 US companies (Intel, AMD, IBM) plus more in startups.

Haven't heard of tech firms recruiting in the past decade on the hardware end in the United States.

Blatantly wrong. My friends and I graduated in the past decade and were recruited to work on hardware for a number of companies. I turned down hardware design jobs to stay on the fab side of the business since I found it more interesting personally. Still kicking myself for turning down those AAPL options though

MSEE's are lucky to find jobs at $60-$70k/year, and doing a MSEE is comparable to doing a law degree or becoming a family doctor, in terms of the effort you have to put into the course.

I stopped with a BS and I've never gotten a law degree but I have a hard time seeing how you can compare 2 extra years of grad school for a master's to be comparable to 3 years of law school or more for med school + residency. If you'd said PhD then I could agree with you.

$80k/year doesn't go very far when you have to pay SFBay prices food, rent, petrol, etc. And in low-cost places such as Austin, the wages are somewhat lower even.

I won't debate the cost of living in California, it's rediculous. But my EE friends & classmates in the valley were making 80K to START + options and have moved up since so I don't hear them complaining. In Austin we make very good money considering the cost of living. With 5-8 years experience most of my EE friends make 90K+ which goes a long ways in Texas.

and you can't get into a MBA program without work experience.

You can't get into an executive or evening MBA program without experience but there are a ton of Finance & Business undergrads who go straight into MBA programs without any work experience. Now if you'd said an MBA is much more valuable in the hands of someone with experience I'd agree with you. Schools also desire students with work experience as they are able to immediately apply and understand many of the concepts better than those who've never worked in the trenches.

 

[Mothergoose729]

Mothergoose729
Congrats on knowing what you think you want to do so early in life and taking the initiative to research it. You are way ahead of the curve. Like everyone else has said you would be well served with either a CE or EE degree. If you are thinking about future flexibility with your degree think about what else you might like to do besides design work. With a CE you could transition into a lot more software programming roles. With an EE you could transition at some later point in life into something like power generation, smart grids, equipment design, etc.

I saw you mentioned you had read the Pentium Chronicles and want to be part of the 4 year cycle. Realize that there are quite a number of different types of jobs which get done in that 4 year cycle by discrete groups of people. There are teams that follow a particular product from start to finish but many of the groups are working on that product for a year and then pass it off to the next group and start in on the next generation product. I guess what i'm trying to say is that there are many options in what you could actually do for microprocess design. You could be end up doing architecture, RTL, verification, CAD, test, etc etc. and contribute to a working microprocessor.

e_marston is right on the money with his/her advice about finding a school with a good co-op program. That is the route that myself and nearly all of my friends took into the industry. Most of us had full time offers by the beginning of our senior years.

A couple extra thoughts for you. There are a ton of great opportunites for doing some really cool design work in smaller companies now of days. Only problem is these companies hire new college grads much less frequently. But don't overlook them because they are the ones growing the fastest. Nvidia, Qualcomm, and ARM all used to be much much smaller than they are today.


Now on to my poor friend pitz. You've either led a truly unlucky life or are just not well informed.



I have a large number of friends, all under 35, all working in design engineering roles at one of the Big 3 US companies (Intel, AMD, IBM) plus more in startups.



Blatantly wrong. My friends and I graduated in the past decade and were recruited to work on hardware for a number of companies. I turned down hardware design jobs to stay on the fab side of the business since I found it more interesting personally. Still kicking myself for turning down those AAPL options though



I stopped with a BS and I've never gotten a law degree but I have a hard time seeing how you can compare 2 extra years of grad school for a master's to be comparable to 3 years of law school or more for med school + residency. If you'd said PhD then I could agree with you.



I won't debate the cost of living in California, it's rediculous. But my EE friends & classmates in the valley were making 80K to START + options and have moved up since so I don't hear them complaining. In Austin we make very good money considering the cost of living. With 5-8 years experience most of my EE friends make 90K+ which goes a long ways in Texas.



You can't get into an executive or evening MBA program without experience but there are a ton of Finance & Business undergrads who go straight into MBA programs without any work experience. Now if you'd said an MBA is much more valuable in the hands of someone with experience I'd agree with you. Schools also desire students with work experience as they are able to immediately apply and understand many of the concepts better than those who've never worked in the trenches.

Thank you so much for posting! It sounds like you have valuable insight into the field and I really hope you can help answer some of my questions. I am most interested in the RTL side of things for microprocessors. When i read the pentium chronicles, the job that sounded most interesting to me wasn't really the design/architecture phase. Sitting around with a bunch of smart people and dreaming up technologies is great, but I liked the idea of then taking one of these far reaching technologies, and making it actually work with real silicon. If one of my superiors gave me a design goal for a technology like hyperthreading, and my job was to figure out which stages of the float pipe line to duplicated and how, that would be great. Months wrestling with a complex design problem is exactly what I want to do.

You mentioned that you have many of young friends in design jobs with any of the big three (intel, AMD, Nvidia). I will extend that I would also be very happy with a job with ARM or IBM as well. What jobs do they hold exactly? What degrees did they get? How did they acquire their jobs and in what ways could I emulate them to achieve what I want? Any really specific information you have would be fantastic!

 

[Eskimo]

Check your PM

 

[uclabachelor]

I know this may not be the correct section for this, but I have had the best luck in talking with people who are familiar with college and understand career paths here more then anywhere else. The counselors at my school are great but just don't know enough about my specific field to help me. I want to design microprocessors, either CPU or GPU, for one of the big three (intel, nvidia, AMD, maybe ARM). I am looking at bachelor and graduate programs, and a known of them seem to have any programs with emphasis in what I want to do. A lot of them focus around data bases, or networking, or something similar. I don't want to spend my life maintaining servers. It is good work but it is not for me. I am planning on picking up a bachelors in C++ programming at the same time I am going for a bachelors in computer engineering as a fall back career. Currently I am attending community college and I am just focusing on getting my math and beginning programming prerequisites out of the way. Where should I go and what programs should I enter for my undergrad and (if needed) graduate studies? Should I look into masters programs or will a bachelors be enough? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

As everyone has said, study EE and try taking some computer engineering courses alongside.

You'll need to master your analog circuit analysis and design if you want to get into chip design & fab. All processors boil down to analog circuit analysis, design, and layout.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Mothergoose729,

I live in Sacramento and graduated from California State University - Sacramento with a BS in Computer Engineering.

If you want to design CPU's or GPU's then Computer Engineering is the major you should should choose.

If you go to the CSUS website you can see what course work is required.

The amount of math that is required was only 2 classes short of a minor in mathematics therefore I decided to get my mior also.

There are plenty of programming courses you have to take too.

I can tell you that this Major is NO JOKE!

If I knew then what I know now, I would have chosen a different major, because the job I perform now does not require ANY of the stuff I learned at CSUS (System Admin for Federal Agency).

 

[CanOWorms]

I recommend that you don't set your sight on a handful of particular companies. Not only is that unrealistic, but nobody cares where you work in the semiconductor industry. It's not impressive to anyone in the industry that you work at Intel (this is also the first time I've ever heard someone say Big 3 and specify that as Intel, Nvidia, AMD... that almost sounds like the 3 most well-known companies to consumers rather than industry insiders). People are constantly moving to new companies, joining/creating startups, etc. Prestige in engineering rests upon your position/title.

In fact, Intel & Nvidia & AMD have poor reputations among many in the semiconductor industry.

Also, for every person part of the design team, there are 9 people doing other activities (verification, failure analysis, characterization, etc.).

 

[Mothergoose729]

I recommend that you don't set your sight on a handful of particular companies. Not only is that unrealistic, but nobody cares where you work in the semiconductor industry. It's not impressive to anyone in the industry that you work at Intel (this is also the first time I've ever heard someone say Big 3 and specify that as Intel, Nvidia, AMD... that almost sounds like the 3 most well-known companies to consumers rather than industry insiders). People are constantly moving to new companies, joining/creating startups, etc. Prestige in engineering rests upon your position/title.

In fact, Intel & Nvidia & AMD have poor reputations among many in the semiconductor industry.

Also, for every person part of the design team, there are 9 people doing other activities (verification, failure analysis, characterization, etc.).

Intel is the biggest producer of silicon in the world. AMD I believe is number 10. The idea that they are chumps in the computer game seems strange to me... please elaborate though. What exactly do you mean by that (no sarcasm)?

 

[Juncar]

He probably means they are the most well known companies to consumers. There are other high value and highly reputable semiconductor companies such as Xilinx, Altera and Actel. These companies mainly design microprocessors and FPGA chips. AFAIK, IBM has a division as well, geared towards R&D. There are plenty of companies out there in the semiconductor industry so keep your mind open

 

[CountZero]

I recommend that you don't set your sight on a handful of particular companies. Not only is that unrealistic, but nobody cares where you work in the semiconductor industry. It's not impressive to anyone in the industry that you work at Intel (this is also the first time I've ever heard someone say Big 3 and specify that as Intel, Nvidia, AMD... that almost sounds like the 3 most well-known companies to consumers rather than industry insiders). People are constantly moving to new companies, joining/creating startups, etc. Prestige in engineering rests upon your position/title.

In fact, Intel & Nvidia & AMD have poor reputations among many in the semiconductor industry.

Also, for every person part of the design team, there are 9 people doing other activities (verification, failure analysis, characterization, etc.).

I've heard a lot bad against Intel but nothing against AMD or Nvidia. What fuels the poor reputation amongst those two?

 

[Cogman]

I've heard a lot bad against Intel but nothing against AMD or Nvidia. What fuels the poor reputation amongst those two?

I've heard some nasty stuff about nVidia, poor workers environment, ect.

AMD, well, you just don't know how long you'll have a job with them.

 

[cheesehead]

There's always Microchip and Atmel, in addition to Samsung, Marvell, whatever company it is that does ARM development, and good 'ol Texas Instruments. I'm not too familiar with these companies, at least beyond being able to tell you that their various processors are very, very popular.

Also, on the subject of IBM: Big Blue is bloody enormous - for quite a while they were doing the production for a lot of AMD stuff. All three of the current-generation video game consoles has an IBM-designed and fabricated processor - specifically, the Wii's PowerPC Broadway, the modified G5 in the Xbox 360, and the CELL processor found in the PS3 (though Sony was also involved in the creation of that one.) That's a whole lot of processors!

 

[esun]

Here's a list of the big boys in semiconductors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_sales_leaders_by_year

 

[Mothergoose729]

So basically, keep my mind open... ok, I can dig that. I guess I am most interested in those companies because I am a PC enthusiast and casual gamer at heart. Truth is though working in the development process of any advanced microprocessor would be a lot of fun for me.

 

[metafor]

You can go either way and still become a good CPU designer. CE will take you through some of the software side (micro-code, assembly, data structures, operating systems) which are definitely useful in understanding CPU requirements.

EE will give you a better understanding of the physics behind the devices. But keep in mind that most degree programs let you choose your upper level classes so really, you can focus on whatever you want.

The thing to keep in mind is that there is far more interesting knowledge out there than you can cram in 6+ years of school. The most important thing you can do is pick up books and learn on your own as much as you attend classes.

To that end, I would recommend you go and pick up a copy of Patterson and Hennessy's Computer Organization and Design as soon as you can

 

[metafor]

Intel is the biggest producer of silicon in the world. AMD I believe is number 10. The idea that they are chumps in the computer game seems strange to me... please elaborate though. What exactly do you mean by that (no sarcasm)?

Quality of life mainly. I have a few friends who work over at AMD and it is not a pleasant story. Random layoffs, poor pay, relatively poor benefits and impossible schedules/budgets. Intel, from what I've heard, treat their employees like drones.

nVidia has a fairly good reputation but it's not exactly stellar. The people I know who are at ARM seem pretty happy as well as the ones at Broadcom. Cisco and HP are also pretty nice places to work, so I hear.

 

[esun]

Quality of life mainly. I have a few friends who work over at AMD and it is not a pleasant story. Random layoffs, poor pay, relatively poor benefits and impossible schedules/budgets. Intel, from what I've heard, treat their employees like drones.

nVidia has a fairly good reputation but it's not exactly stellar. The people I know who are at ARM seem pretty happy as well as the ones at Broadcom. Cisco and HP are also pretty nice places to work, so I hear.

Really important to talk to employees in whatever department you're interested in (and you should get that chance during the interview process). Get a solid idea of the day-to-day. I knew someone that was super unhappy at Intel but I have no doubt there are good departments to work in. I myself enjoyed my time at Cisco even though it wasn't a particularly good fit for my skill set. It all depends on the people you end up working with, which changes a lot between departments in the same company.

 

[morisn]

Hey Mothergoose729 I see this post was made back in 2009 so I wonder now how your quest for studies on how to get to the nitty gritty of microprocessor building went. I was actually looking for something in particular and found your post and found it interesting, actually rather familiar with what i wanted when I was studying computer science. You know, it stroke a chord with me because when I was in my college/ University days, I wanted to get to computers not to manage databases or Novell networks or make program on Fox or COBOL (that's what we had back then) I wanted to get into the real deal but not even by going to electrical engineering I would have been able to do that. By the way, that was in my home country, so no chances for me to get there. Now I live in Canada but I'm a little grown now and even if I still work in IT, that's a long gone idea, if not dream.

By the way, I'm just quickly reading some of the replies and see that there is a debate going on regarding hire-ability and how much business sense your pursued career has. Let me tell you something, I have been in IT for over 20 years and I've been in many areas, support, engineering, business (pre-sales) and now management. But if your 'call' is in the nitty-gritty of things, do not let other opinions or trends discourage you. again, I don't know where you are at this point but I feel it for those who have a real interest in the science of things rather than the business side. Of course and in our world, money talks right? And that is why most colleges/universities are gearing their curriculum towards a more business oriented career but they are leaving one very important aspect behind: That some people were born to create and are less than driven by the economics of things. I am not saying that do not pay attention to finances, of course you have, but it is not what will drive you. Engineering careers are good but there should be something focused on computer science and that's what i didn't have when i was a young student. Anyway, if you're still there, I just wonder how it went, and if you did follow your heart. What happened?
Cheers!
Moris

 

[videogames101]

What a necro! Mothergoose729, I hope you've done well in 5 years. Some relevant retrospect here, I entered school for a BSEE in 2011. Turns out the VLSI job market has been awesome in the US this past year (at least for me and my classmates). Who needs an MSEE when BSEE chip design positions can exceed $80k starting. Graduates are in such high demand that many guys I know were negotiating multiple offers.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Lets say I go the route of CE and pick my courses around architecture and microprocessor design. If I don't land a job with a company like intel, would else would I do with that kind of training?

If you learn programming languages and skills very well, you will be fine in a variety of jobs. Programmer jobs are everywhere and once you get a few years of experience under your belt, you can make six figures easily even in a place like Indiana (where I live).

I have a BSEE from Purdue and completed all my MSEE coursework while working as a research assistant (doing hardware design), but "took a break" before finishing my thesis and never went back because life got in the way. I do regret it to some extent and have considered going back to see what it would take to finish it (ie, would my courses still count and could I just work on a large project to fulfill the thesis requirements), but I make a great living as a SharePoint consultant currently. The key is to diversify your skillset so it is applicable to as many industries as possible. Can find an EE job? No problem, jump to a programming position and work your way up.

What a necro! Mothergoose729, I hope you've done well in 5 years. Some relevant retrospect here, I entered school for a BSEE in 2011. Turns out the VLSI job market has been awesome in the US this past year (at least for me and my classmates). Who needs an MSEE when BSEE chip design positions can exceed $80k starting. Graduates are in such high demand that many guys I know were negotiating multiple offers.

Arggggh! Didn't see it was a necro.

I will add one other comment regarding an MSEE -- do NOT pay for it on your own. Get a job first and have your company pay for it. In my case, I had a research assistantship where 90% of the tuition was paid so it was really cheap for me to do. Another reason I wish I would've gone back and finished the thesis. I did so much work as an RA that I probably could've used those projects to finish the degree (when I quit, my advisor told me I could convert the thesis classes to project classes and just work on a project to complete the requirements. Should've asked if my existing work would've counted. )