I want to design microprocessors... which program do I choose?

[PsiStar]

HS math skills could be telling ... but even if you do bad your 1st year in college .. does not equal "fail"!!!

My 1st 2 room mates in college had each just returned from the Navy. One had been in for 4 years & the other 6 ... running the reactor on a sub. Each had been in the same school before the Navy & were not doing well at all so they bailed voluntarily.

When they returned, they then had the money and second the maturity. Amazing what a few years will do. The first roomey only got As & Bs; the second got only As. And, he stopped studying at 6 PM. "The rest of the day was" his. I worked my a$$ off long after that.

Even if you don't go to those extremes, just show constant steady academic improvement. Math for engineering is nothing but rules & understanding the application ... so don't misunderstand, it is not rote memorization.

 

[Mothergoose729]

So wait a second, the only way you get involved in making chips for any of these companies is to basically know the right people and be able to smoosh your way in, or come up with some brake through in computing and then hope somebody notices or cares?

 

[pitz]

Th $45k-$55k is pretty low though, but I guess it also depends on the market. It wasn't a position for an actual engineer so I that may also explain it.

Nope, actual engineering positions. BSEE minimum. They had MSEE and PhD people applying for a $45-$55k job. I believe the positions were in the Test and Verification area. Kind of gives you an idea of how bad the job market is.

There is a difference between holding a degree that allows you to become an engineer and actually having the engineer license, at least when it comes to the pay.

Not in the tech sector. Hardly anybody in the tech sector is a PEO or APEGGA member in Canada, or even cares about membership. Being a P.Eng. is just important for stamping documents and doing the 'power' or light industrial/heavy industrial stuff, not microelectronics design work.

 

[tcsenter]

Not in the tech sector. Hardly anybody in the tech sector is a PEO or APEGGA member in Canada, or even cares about membership. Being a P.Eng. is just important for stamping documents and doing the 'power' or light industrial/heavy industrial stuff, not microelectronics design work.

Not to mention that in many countries/states, there is no professional licensure for electronics engineers. In fact, it may be illegal for an electronics engineer to use the title of professional engineer, because that is a legally protected title in some countries/states and reserved only to qualified civil engineers (e.g. structural/mechanical/geophysics).

 

[pitz]

So wait a second, the only way you get involved in making chips for any of these companies is to basically know the right people and be able to smoosh your way in, or come up with some brake through in computing and then hope somebody notices or cares?

In the past decade, this has been an extremely accurate characterization of the market. Or live in India or China, and be willing to either work for a fraction of the US wages overseas, or come to North America and work for cheap (ie: slavery wages) on the H1-B visa.

But I'm not a fortune teller. The tech collapse has been brutal for the Silicon Valley. The fabs have dissappeared. EE's that would have worked in devices and in fabs are chasing chip design jobs. A lot of chip design jobs themselves have gone overseas. System-on-a-chip and reusable IP blocks have reduced the amount of logic that designers need to develop for an individual chip. And firmware-based solutions have supplanted the need for custom ASICs in so many applications (ie: softmodems, FPGA's, etc.).

Just think, a decade ago, we had the AXP (Digital), x86 (Intel, AMD), ia64, i960 RISC, SunSPARC, MIPS, etc. platforms, plus a litany of embedded platforms. Today, practically everything is x86, concentrated in 2 design firms. And amazingly, you can buy a top-end CPU for $200 instead of $2000 as was the case a decade ago, despite far less competition.

Its awesome to be a techie, and maybe the US dollar will collapse enough to bring chip design jobs back to the USA, but its a very unhealthy industry to be a part of right now as a US Citizen worker.

 

[Net]

..

 

[Mothergoose729]

Shit. Ok, so lets say I get a degree in CE. What else can I do with it if designing chips never works out?

 

[esun]

I think some of you guys are worried a bit too much about EE vs. CE. Really there is little distinction, and OP you'll figure out what you want to do along the way. Don't stress over getting a double major or majoring in one or minoring in the other. It really doesn't matter. Pick one, do well, take classes that interest you, and you'll be fine.

BTW, while we speak of EE as though it is all circuit design, the reality is that the field is extremely broad. You've got DSP and communications folks who rarely will touch any hardware and do most of their work in MATLAB or something similar. Heck, most of their stuff starts on paper (as in mathematical derivations) rather than code. So again, the name of the degree is really not very important versus what you learn.

Oh, and since pitz is relying heavily on anecdotes to argue how shitty the market for EEs is, I'll just add that all of my undergrad EE friends are either employed or in graduate school. My roommate and I both got good offers (as in, much, much higher than $45-55k) within the past few months, both of us with MSEE. He's in chip verification and I'm in communications. Heck, our department is looking to fill a position right now, so there are definitely jobs out there for EEs. Admittedly I don't work in microprocessor design, but trust me, EEs find work pretty easily.

 

[esun]

Shit. Ok, so lets say I get a degree in CE. What else can I do with it if designing chips never works out?

You can do whatever you've taken classes in. You could do embedded systems. You could do system design. You could probably work as a programmer too. These fields are extremely broad.

 

[Mothergoose729]

Lets say I go the route of CE and pick my courses around architecture and microprocessor design. If I don't land a job with a company like intel, would else would I do with that kind of training?

 

[pitz]

I
Heck, our department is looking to fill a position right now, so there are definitely jobs out there for EEs. Admittedly I don't work in microprocessor design, but trust me, EEs find work pretty easily.

Well, my experience has been nearly the complete opposite. EE salaries haven't really grown from 2000 levels, despite a decade of inflation. And if there are jobs out there, how come nobody I know seems to be able to find them?

Maybe you went to Stanford or something where those grads are in demand, but once you get outside of the top 10 EE/CE schools in the country, demand is very minimal, and when going into EE/CE, one has to be prepared for the very real prospect that their career and life will be ruined by chronic unemployment, and low salaries. Especially if one graduates during a bad year for the tech industry and doesn't find a job immediately.

 

[pitz]

Lets say I go the route of CE and pick my courses around architecture and microprocessor design. If I don't land a job with a company like intel, would else would I do with that kind of training?

In the past decade, because the tech industry hasn't been hiring domestically, many EE/CE's have gone into the financial industry, usually as programmers, or done totally non-traditional things such as sell real estate or operate their family businesses (often restaurants, or other service businesses). You would also likely have the skills to be a system admin or network administrator, and then, of course, there are a plethora of traditional 'management' type jobs, in public and private industry, or in consultancy.

I live in oil country, and a lot of EE/CE's end up working there, in project management or project engineering, even if they originally trained as chip designers.

But as far as actually being a core chip designer, you probably have a better chance of becoming a NHL or NFL player, than you do in becoming one of them (unfortunately, without matching pay though!).

 

[Modelworks]

Lets say I go the route of CE and pick my courses around architecture and microprocessor design. If I don't land a job with a company like intel, would else would I do with that kind of training?

Look to the embedded market. That is where I ended up starting form large and I mean very large, multi floor cpu type processing on things like Cray systems.
Now people want things compact. They want their phones to do what their laptop can do in hardware terms. Companies like ARM have great programs for upcoming engineers to get them in the field. The benefit with processors like ARM is they are modular. So you can design a new module to process Java faster and add that to an already existing part to produce a whole new chip. You can specialize in what area you are best at doing and still find work in companies like that.

ARM has been one of the most friendly companies towards engineers in comparison to companies like Intel, AMD, or Broadcom that want to shroud everything in secrecy. They are really a great group of folks to work with.
http://www.arm.com/index.php

How many other processor companies give you the tools to design your own custom cpu for free ?
http://www.arm.com/support/designstart.php

 

[Mothergoose729]

I would be interested in a job with ARM. Would it be a safe to assume that there is always a career in programming to fall back on?

 

[pitz]

I would be interested in a job with ARM. Would it be a safe to assume that there is always a career in programming to fall back on?

If you can find a job. The problem with programming is, again, outsourcing. The programming jobs have actually been the subject of even more aggressive outsourcing, and use of cheap foreign labour.

The job market is extremely fickle too, and a high GPA doesn't guarantee you the jobs of choice. In fact, the market has been so distorted in the past decade that you have a better chance of getting a job if you have a lower GPA. Strange, eh?

 

[bobsmith1492]

If you can find a job. The problem with programming is, again, outsourcing. The programming jobs have actually been the subject of even more aggressive outsourcing, and use of cheap foreign labour.

The job market is extremely fickle too, and a high GPA doesn't guarantee you the jobs of choice. In fact, the market has been so distorted in the past decade that you have a better chance of getting a job if you have a lower GPA. Strange, eh?

All the friends I graduated with (and I) found jobs around West Michigan working with embedded systems. One started his own company, with another working for him. If all else fails you can come to Michigan, Pitz.

 

[CountZero]

If you can find a job. The problem with programming is, again, outsourcing. The programming jobs have actually been the subject of even more aggressive outsourcing, and use of cheap foreign labour.

The job market is extremely fickle too, and a high GPA doesn't guarantee you the jobs of choice. In fact, the market has been so distorted in the past decade that you have a better chance of getting a job if you have a lower GPA. Strange, eh?

Come on! Enough with the doom and gloom, you sound like someone that has just been laid off.

Mothergoose729, here's the deal, getting a tech degree does not guarantee you employment on graduation, it doesn't guarantee employment in that field ever. Ten years after people get their degrees a large number aren't even working in the area they went to school including engineers.

What you need to do is think about what you like to do because unless you want to be a doctor or some other none outsource-able career then hemming and hawing because of that is pointless.

So you like computer architecture. That gives you three options at most schools (CS, CE, EE). If you like arch and the programming that goes with it CS/CE is the route to go. If you like arch and the underlying electronics CE/EE is the way to go. Though to be fair the amount of EE you take as a CE where I went to school wouldn't be enough to get you hired as a physical design guy but on the flip side I had to seek out arch classes from the CS school since the EE offerings were slim.

And that is the other big thing, where you go to school will make a big difference. Where I went CE was basically CS with a few more required CS classes and a handful of EE classes but someone else here said theirs was like EE but without power classes.

Thirdly everything is cyclical. When I graduated in 2007 I didn't know a single person that was looking for a job and didn't get one. When I graduated in 2001 I was the only person I knew with a job at graduation (and that went away just a few months later). In that way how well you fare upon graduation will be mostly luck but that would be true regardless of career choice.

 

[Cogman]

If you can find a job. The problem with programming is, again, outsourcing. The programming jobs have actually been the subject of even more aggressive outsourcing, and use of cheap foreign labour.

The job market is extremely fickle too, and a high GPA doesn't guarantee you the jobs of choice. In fact, the market has been so distorted in the past decade that you have a better chance of getting a job if you have a lower GPA. Strange, eh?

While GPA doesn't matter (unless you are talking about getting into grad-school or landing the first internship), the rest of the post is BS. In recent years, outsourcing, especially in the programming industry, has been reversing. The fact is, for the cheep labor the companies where getting crappy code that nobody could fix. Couple that with communication issues and you have a big mess.

There are plenty of companies looking to hire programmers, heck, I live in Idaho and found a company that wants me as a programmer. Yeah, your first few jobs you'll be a code-monkey, but it really isn't as bleak as you say.

 

[aj654987]

The guy who said to make sure the school is ABET accredited and in Electrical Engineering NOT "engineering technology" is spot on.

Most schools that are those will have Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering but look into them both. Generally your first year will probably be electives and the basics so you still have time to decide and you could go into either program.

I would also look through each school's website you are considering and look at what they offer for job placement and career center wise. Because in my case some of the other schools I was considering offered far more in this area than the school Ive graduated from and that can be a big deal when you are looking for work when youre done.

Other than that dont worry too much about the details of the upper level classes because it will be a while before you get there but make sure that the school you pick offers that path within Electrical Engineering because there are other focuses such as power transmission and wireless transmission. Also make sure they offer a masters EE program.

 

[aj654987]

HS math skills could be telling ... but even if you do bad your 1st year in college .. does not equal "fail"!!!

My 1st 2 room mates in college had each just returned from the Navy. One had been in for 4 years & the other 6 ... running the reactor on a sub. Each had been in the same school before the Navy & were not doing well at all so they bailed voluntarily.

When they returned, they then had the money and second the maturity. Amazing what a few years will do. The first roomey only got As & Bs; the second got only As. And, he stopped studying at 6 PM. "The rest of the day was" his. I worked my a$$ off long after that.

Even if you don't go to those extremes, just show constant steady academic improvement. Math for engineering is nothing but rules & understanding the application ... so don't misunderstand, it is not rote memorization.

Yeah maturity helps alot in engineering school. There were a lot of people going back to school at 22-25 or so and they were some of the best students because I think they were more determined. Its a lot of work to do and sometimes people see all their friends with easier classes having more free time and try to keep up with them in social activities and start falling behind.

 

[pitz]

While GPA doesn't matter (unless you are talking about getting into grad-school or landing the first internship), the rest of the post is BS. In recent years, outsourcing, especially in the programming industry, has been reversing. The fact is, for the cheep labor the companies where getting crappy code that nobody could fix. Couple that with communication issues and you have a big mess.

Nice theory, but on the ground, outsourcing has been accelerating, as well as the use of imported labour through the H1-B program. A reversal, hardly. Firms like Microsoft are actively firing thousands of American workers and either offshoring the work, or bringing in more H1-B's.

There are plenty of companies looking to hire programmers, heck, I live in Idaho and found a company that wants me as a programmer. Yeah, your first few jobs you'll be a code-monkey, but it really isn't as bleak as you say.

Its even worse than that. And each programming job these days receives literally hundreds of resumes, of which, only a handful are selected for interviews, and only one hired, if even. 5-10 recruiting firms also pick up on job openings and create additional 'postings' online, which give the allusion that there are plenty of jobs, which there are not.

Unemployment rates for people who go to engineering school are approximately 50%, which is far worse than the unemployment rate of the broader population. Tech jobs overall are still down from 2000 levels, and the remaining jobs have been mostly filled by recent immigrants, not citizens who have studied at domestic universities.

 

[Mothergoose729]

Nice theory, but on the ground, outsourcing has been accelerating, as well as the use of imported labour through the H1-B program. A reversal, hardly. Firms like Microsoft are actively firing thousands of American workers and either offshoring the work, or bringing in more H1-B's.



Its even worse than that. And each programming job these days receives literally hundreds of resumes, of which, only a handful are selected for interviews, and only one hired, if even. 5-10 recruiting firms also pick up on job openings and create additional 'postings' online, which give the allusion that there are plenty of jobs, which there are not.

Unemployment rates for people who go to engineering school are approximately 50%, which is far worse than the unemployment rate of the broader population. Tech jobs overall are still down from 2000 levels, and the remaining jobs have been mostly filled by recent immigrants, not citizens who have studied at domestic universities.

Well, I did research and you were right about jobs with computer engineering not be so good. According to this site:

http://educhoices.org/articles/Comp...for_the_Computer_Engineering_Professions.html

There are some 79,000 jobs total in the US, with growth suspected to be 5% in the next six years... Geeze.

Computer software engineers, AKA programmers make similar salaries on average and that job market is expected to grow. I have read that all over the internet on sites with statistics relevant to 2007 on.

I think your pessimism is more then a little off. According to you if I get any degrees in the computer industry I can expect nothing but unemployment and frustration. There are jobs in the computer market, some of them growing and some of them not. I will just try and hedge my bets. I think I will stick with my original plan. I am going to double major in computer engineering and software engineering. I will do the best I can and hope for the best.

Thanks for your guys responses. If you have anything to add I will read it, but at this point I think I know what I want and I just need to do it.

 

[DanDaManJC]

Say pitz is right and all technical work is offshored... you'll still be able to land several non-related jobs with a CE // EE degree just because CE // EE degrees are known to be hard and challenging degrees that require real work. You could also go into sales, project management, systems engineering at a tech firm (say Cisco or Microsoft) where they need people who understand the technical aspects on top of working on the business side.

While this kind of job may not be what you want, if push comes to shove those are all open options. Furthermore, what other alternatives do you have? Outside the service sector where employment MUST stay local... you could probably be just as bleek about any other industry and the effect of globalization.

 

[tcsenter]

Add a management or business degree and you're gold. Even though a lot of the monkey work (e.g. rank and file engineering positions doing the tedious programming, design, or verification work) is being off-shored, the product development, department management, and project leader positions are not.

 

[pitz]

I think your pessimism is more then a little off. According to you if I get any degrees in the computer industry I can expect nothing but unemployment and frustration.

Basically, yes. Unless you find a good internship with a company that happens to be hiring graduates, you're pretty much going to be in for a very rough ride. If you graduate during a recession and can't find a job straight out of school, your career is basically ruined. I'm not making this stuff up -- I know dozens of people from 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 graduating classes who have never been able to enter the workforce, in any capacity. Even Wal-Mart won't hire them because they're considered to be "overqualified".

If you don't believe me, read this study:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411562_salzman_Science.pdf

Page 35 -- only 1/3rd of US STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Manufacturing) grads are working in STEM occupations. Of those who are even working at all, only 2/3rds are in STEM, so the effective unemployment rate of STEM graduates is 50%.

The other startling statistic -- people with a higher GPA have a lower probability of being employed.

Page 47, in Computer Science/Math, for 1995 grads, only 49% were employed in STEM occupations. This was during the late 1990s, when high tech had great salaries, and Silicon Valley was going nuts.

The reality is, the computer industry is very sick (as evidenced by the super-low prices people pay for stuff, and the poor employment prospects), and there is a massive glut of people chasing a very limited number of jobs.