I thought the world was only 5 million years old...

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FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,235
2,779
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> It's wankers like you that make those who aren't Christian dislike those who are.

Theres the pot calling the kettle black. A number of non-Christians are dislikeable folk as they tend to be loudmouthed and God hating. You however would still be loudmouthed and uniformed even if you did believe in God.

And we already know elle is a wierdo regardless of what he believed in. He proves it over and over everyday, in every post. So there. /sarcasm
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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rahvin here's a review:

Eli said: "How can you ignore the fact that all of the continents fit together, like a puzzle? How long has it taken them to move to their current locations?"

I responded: "as per rahvin's post 'YOU CAN'T INTERPOLATE DATA BEYOND THE RANGE OF DATA COLLECTED' and if you do so you 'attempt to convince the layman by BLATENTLY violating the rules!'"

You responded: "DO NOT QUOTE THAT AGAIN. You are using the quote out of context and without the caveat that I applied. That statement ONLY applies in statistics, not where a mathmatical model exists. Get it through your head."

Your original statement: "As someone who actually TOOK a STATISTICS course in college let me educate you about the first RULE of statistical analysis. YOU CAN'T INTERPOLATE DATA BEYOND THE RANGE OF DATA COLLECTED. In other words, you can't construe that if the diamter of the sun is reducing currently that it was doing so 100 million years ago unless you have a measurement from a 100 million years ago to back it up. If you assume a linear progression on data beyond the limits of your data you WILL be wrong in 90% of the cases where you dont' have a mathmatical relationship to prove a relationship. See this is the fundemental problem with arguements of this type, they attempt to convince the layman by BLATENTLY violating the rules!"

Que Passa



 

Chadder007

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,560
0
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QUOTE Eli ""The half-life of Carbon-14, as I was saying, is 5730 years. Even if that figure was off, and it was only 5700, or even 5500 years, or what if it was 5800? The date would still be accurate to within several hundred years. ""End QUOTE

Umm...has anyone actually lived over 5800 years and seen the Carbon-14 decay during this so called time of Half-Life???? ...or even to 50,000 years to know if this is the total life decay period of it????

I think this is what Petrek is referring too when he says:

QUOTE ""(Quote from Rahvin within Petrek's post)"As someone who actually TOOK a STATISTICS course in college let me educate you about the first RULE of statistical analysis. YOU CAN'T INTERPOLATE DATA BEYOND THE RANGE OF DATA COLLECTED. In other words, you can't construe that if the diamter of the sun is reducing currently that it was doing so 100 million years ago unless you have a measurement from a 100 million years ago to back it up. If you assume a linear progression on data beyond the limits of your data you WILL be wrong in 90% of the cases where you dont' have a mathmatical relationship to prove a relationship. See this is the fundemental problem with arguements of this type, they attempt to convince the layman by BLATENTLY violating the rules! ""

rahvin, I'm glad you recognize the problem associated with radiometric dating, and why carbon dating etal are not the absolute dating methods that scientists and the masses claim them to be." End QUOTE

DA POINT....you don't have data that has been SCIENTIFICALLY collected from 5000 or even 50,000...much less 5 billion years ago.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
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<< Elledan, do you really believe that our universe, or perhaps just our world, was created by alien intelligence? >>

Nope. I merely use it as an example to show that the belief in gods is irrational.

One can easily think up a thousand 'theories' which are then just as valid as this 'god-theory'. You know why? Metaphysics. Where nothing can be proven or disproven.

BTW, I still haven't heard a response to my questions regarding gods (which substances are they made of, did they evolve from another lifeform etc.). I guess no one knows?
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
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Can someone give me a valid reason for why scientists knowingly and blatently violate the rules, why is it that your so called "unbiased scientific experts" violate the rules to produce dates to support their beliefs (and those of the layman who is in textbook after textbook, in newspaper after newspaper, and on tv program after tv program given these "trustworthy" and "scienific" dates), why is it that most of what is considered science today is based on violating the known rule rather than adhering to it?

Dave
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< Can someone give me a valid reason for why scientists knowingly and blatently violate the rules, why is it that your so called "unbiased scientific experts" violate the rules to produce dates to support their beliefs (and those of the layman who is in textbook after textbook, in newspaper after newspaper, and on tv program after tv program given these "trustworthy" and "scienific" dates), why is it that most of what is considered science today is based on violating the known rule rather than adhering to it?

Dave
>>

Just WTF are you talking about?!?
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
Can someone who is of sound mind (capable of rational thought) give me a valid reason for why scientists knowingly and blatently violate the rules, why is it that the so called "unbiased scientific experts" violate the rules to produce dates to support their beliefs (and subsequently those of the layman who is in textbook after textbook, in newspaper after newspaper, and on tv program after tv program given these "trustworthy" and "scienific" dates), why is it that most of what is considered science today is based on violating the known rule rather than adhering to it?

Dave
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< Can someone who is of sound mind (capable of rational thought) give me a valid reason for why scientists knowingly and blatently violate the rules, why is it that the so called "unbiased scientific experts" violate the rules to produce dates to support their beliefs (and subsequently those of the layman who is in textbook after textbook, in newspaper after newspaper, and on tv program after tv program given these "trustworthy" and "scienific" dates), why is it that most of what is considered science today is based on violating the known rule rather than adhering to it?

Dave
>>

Would you mind providing some examples to back up those statements?
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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<<Umm...has anyone actually lived over 5800 years and seen the Carbon-14 decay during this so called time of Half-Life???? ...or even to 50,000 years to know if this is the total life decay period of it???? >>

Your fundemental lack of understanding of radioactive decay and theories behind it make you THINK that this is somehow a stastical number. It isn't, radiocative decay is fixed elemental property and always has been, the fundementals of it trace back to the very fundementals of every law of the universe we know. There isn't a stastical model, there is a mathmatical one and where mathmatical models exist YOU CAN interpolate beyond the range of data provided. That is HOW scientific predictions are made about such things as buildings not falling down when a 10mph wind hits them. Get it? IN statistics you can't interpolate beyond the range of the data in question unless you can take the data and generate a working MATHMATICAL model that acurately predicts each data point and then use that model to make preditions about future data (the test of the model is those future predictions).

Radioactive decay is so fundemental that the most acurate clocks in our world are based on the decay, relativistic time dilation was proved using radioactive decay. Hell your smoke detector uses radioactive decay! You underestimate how much we know about decay.

I can't believe people don't know this stuff, it's like they never took a fvcking science class in their lives.

petrek,

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I have a sentence in there that says you can't interpolate beyond the range of data UNLESS you have a mathmatical model to prove a relationship. My brain did move a little faster than my hands though and relationship showed up twice instead of the word model in the first postion but I left it cause it still made sense.

DO NOT quote that passage again in response to anything in this thread or another.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0


<< never said my beliefs weren't wild. I think both sets of beliefs are completely bonkers >>

In that case I apologize for calling you as a "Pathetic Christian" I didn't mean to generalize all christians as "martyrs" yet I did.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
0


<< I can't believe people don't know this stuff, it's like they never took a fvcking science class in their lives. >>



In every "fvcking" science class I ever took, they taught us to know the difference between observation and inference. I don't buy your inferences. They're based on a philosophy I don't subscribe to. Statistics are going to get you know where. 87.7% are made up on the fly. "Mathmatical" models... how interesting. They're still based on ranges of data. Your 10-mph-wind-on-a-building-analogy in no way applies to radiometric dating. If it does and I'm missing it, explain how. I can come up with a mathematical model for anything... what does that prove? How do you know exponential decay is constant over these supposed billions of years? Are you claiming that no circumstance would have been different within that vast amount of time to alter the rate of decay? That's a little short-sighted, IMO.



<< Oh, and it is only 2002 years old, not 6000 because jesus was born then and that means the earth was created. You think those two ideas sound retarded? well that is how you sound if you think the earth is not 4.6b years old to us. >>



I wasn't going to dignify this with a response, but it was so laughable I just had to say something... "jesus was born then and that means the earth was created." Um... I really don't think I'm the one who sounds retarded. I have respect for a lot of people who believe the earth happens to be 4.6 billion years old. Don't ruin it for your colleagues who have a brain and aren't afraid to use it.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
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<< In every "fvcking" science class I ever took, they taught us to know the difference between observation and inference. I don't buy your inferences. They're based on a philosophy I don't subscribe to. Statistics are going to get you know where. 87.7% are made up on the fly. "Mathmatical" models... how interesting. They're still based on ranges of data. Your 10-mph-wind-on-a-building-analogy in no way applies to radiometric dating. If it does and I'm missing it, explain how. I can come up with a mathematical model for anything... what does that prove? How do you know exponential decay is constant over these supposed billions of years? Are you claiming that no circumstance would have been different within that vast amount of time to alter the rate of decay? That's a little short-sighted, IMO. >>



The problem with your arguement is that if you think decay rates are changing you a proposing that the fundemental makeup of our universe can change. That the very physical rules of our universe can change. With a change in decay rate something as drastic as the strength of nuclear forces would need to change and the very molecules that make up the universe would fall apart. You JUST DON'T understand how basic of a function you are saying can willy nilly change. If I generate a mathmatical model say of motion that says that F = M*A and using that model I can then explain all these things like bodies accelerating, and then use that model to predict the behavior of the something that has a force applied to it then that is a mathmatical model that explains the data and CAN be used to make predictions beyond the range of data.

Now if you want to presist in saying that the strong nuclear force has made a fundemental change in behavior then I think I will pat you on the head and offer you a banana. I mean Jesus, if the strong nuclear force can change who says gravity has ever been the same or atoms have ever looked like they do now. I mean how do we even know we aren't a figment of our own imagination?
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
0


<< That the very physical rules of our universe can change. With a change in decay rate something as drastic as the strength of nuclear forces would need to change and the very molecules that make up the universe would fall apart. >>



Um... snowball? I'm not suggesting a drastic change in nuclear forces. There are all kinds of things that can influence radioactive decay. One of the biggest problems is that you just don't know what happened to your sample during all those years. Shoot, scientists have carbon-dated a 20-year old seal that had recently died at over 10,000 years. You just don't know how much parent product there was to begin with in the sample, you don't know how much daughter product had entered the system during all the time you're suggesting the fossil had sat there in the earth surrounded by various degrees of radiation, and you really can't say for certain that the going rate has always been that rate. What if there were "radioactive inflation" due to changes in the earth's environment over the last billion years? Or even a catastrophic event in the last few thousand years that caused these processes to accelerate? I really don't think it's very scientific to say that if your theory is incorrect, the universe would fall apart. But I can see why you're so concerned about this issue. Trust me, rahvin. The sky is not falling, even if decay rates are changing. And I'm not talking about "wily nily" changing. Just accounting for differences that uniformitarianism won't permit you to account for.

F=MA is not beyond the range of data. It doesn't depend on time. Furthermore, it doesn't rest on the assumption that constants will remain constant. If gravity changes, the acceleration of a free-falling object will change. This will still fit the formula. That's the difference between a scientific law and an inference.

As far as making predictions beyond the range of data... that's fine! Go ahead! Make predictions! That's in the future, though. And the future's not certain. Neither is the past. A "prediction" requires some measure of uncertainty. So don't hold your predictions to be unchangeably true. Science isn't unchangeably true.



<< Now if you want to presist in saying that the strong nuclear force has made a fundemental change in behavior then I think I will pat you on the head and offer you a banana. >>



Wow, I'm hungry for a banana. I think I'll go get one. There. Much better. No, I can hardly "presist" in saying that the strong nuclear force has made a fundamental change in behavior, since you're the one who came up with that idea. But you can't have this banana. It's mine. I suppose I'd pat you on the head if it would mean something to you.



<< I mean Jesus, if the strong nuclear force can change who says gravity has ever been the same or atoms have ever looked like they do now. >>



Are you asking Jesus or are you asking me? Science, as far as I know, doesn't argue that gravity has always been the same. And I've never seen an "atom," so it wouldn't bother me if they changed in appearance. Funny. You seem to be advocating the position that nothing changes in the science world. That is SO contrary to the principles of evolution I thought you would be upholding.



<< mean how do we even know we aren't a figment of our own imagination? >>



Well, we have to exist to have an imagination, thereby creating ourselves as a figment of our own imagination. So I guess that's how we know.



<< I tried being reasonable once. I didn't like it. >>



Must have been rough.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
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Ok Xirtam, lets try a different angle on this seeing as how you gave me an opening. You just made a wonderful assertian that I want evidence of:



<< There are all kinds of things that can influence radioactive decay. >>



Name these "things". Be specific, no generalities.

Do you know what radioactivity is? Do you know what makes an atom radioactive?

Three questions, three answers.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
0
<< There are all kinds of things that can influence radioactive decay. >>



<< Name these "things". Be specific, no generalities. >>



Sure. Addition of carbon to the sample you're looking at. Increased radiation surrounding the sample. How about... faulty measurements? If you're off by just a little bit, that translates into a huge difference in years.



<< Do you know what radioactivity is? Do you know what makes an atom radioactive? >>



Yes.

Yes.

Three questions, three answers.

Now your turn to answer a question. Are we done?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
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<< Increased radiation surrounding the sample. How about... faulty measurements? If you're off by just a little bit, that translates into a huge difference in years. >>




1. The rate of decay depends on the stability of the nuclei of the atom. How would increased radiation (and where would it come from btw?) alter that?

2. Yes, and scientic measurements are extremely precise. You're using a machine that has millions of trasistors in it, each transistor smaller than you can imagine and you're implying scienfic measurements aren't precise? :confused:
rolleye.gif
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
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<< Shoot, scientists have carbon-dated a 20-year old seal that had recently died at over 10,000 years. >>



You can't accurately date anything that died after the 1940s.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
0


<< You can't accurately date anything that died after the 1940s. >>



Why would you want to? I typically date younger women.

MartyTheManiak: Yes. That's what I'm saying. Precision involves getting answers that are close to the same. Scientists don't do this with radioactive dating. They date something, and if it doesn't fit the model, they run it through again. And again. And again. Until they get a number they like. If they never get another number they like, they try a different method. Such as K-Ar. That gives you older answers. In fact, nowadays, they just date the fossil with all three radioactive methods and pick the one that fits the best.

By the way, precision and accuracy are two different things. FYI. I'm a computer engineer. I don't need a lecture on how many millions of transistors we have in them.

Now, that computer with millions of transistors... does it occur in the natural world? If we sit and wait long enough, will we get a computer out of chemical soup? Will silicon just pop in out of nowhere... oh, wait, since the earth isn't a closed system, the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply... that's right... energy from the sun will aid the process of creating this irreducibly complex system...all we need is enough time. How long will it take? A million years? A billion years? Fine. Let's give it that long. Wake me up when a computer evolves from simpler substances as a result of a completely random, unguided, unintelligent process.

I'm just pointing out the holes. Both sides are filled with them. I hate them all. Nobody gives me straight answers anymore. Just "It has been proven this..." and "It has been proven that..."

Whatever. I'm sick of the weak arguments, and I'm not about to start countering arguments so that I can counter the counter arguments to those counters... pretty soon, both sides start compensating and we wind up with irrationalities like theistic evolution and punctuated equilibrium.

How about this:

I don't know. I wasn't there. Were you?
 

Bobomatic

Senior member
Dec 31, 2001
514
0
0
hmm.. I was born yesterday.... add 6.436 billion that makes the world 6.436 billion and one day old.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
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<< Now your turn to answer a question. Are we done? >>



Oh no. I intend for you to make a complete display here.



<< Sure. Addition of carbon to the sample you're looking at. Increased radiation surrounding the sample. How about... faulty measurements? If you're off by just a little bit, that translates into a huge difference in years. >>



I'm not talking about carbon dating, I'm talking about the decay rate of the radioactive atoms.



<< There are all kinds of things that can influence radioactive decay. >>



This is your statement. I want you to back that statement up, so far you haven't. Explain to me what will affect the radioactive decay of atoms?



<< << Do you know what radioactivity is? Do you know what makes an atom radioactive? >>

Yes.

Yes.
>>



Expliain what radioactivity is. Explain what makes an atom radioactive.

Three questions. Three DETAILED answers.

Simple.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,909
6,790
126
Xirtam, in case it isn't abundantly clear, rahvin is saying that there are things that can affect measurments of how much radioactive decay have taken place, but no known reason to suspect that radioactive decay is anything but constant. It's one of those k values and would require a rewrite of physics to change. It could be that the perceived k isn't constant, but that's not something that people who accept scientific reasoning are going to do without profoundly persuasive new information. Anyway that's how I see it.
 

absolutiza

Senior member
Jul 29, 2001
459
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<<

<< Scientists find Jurassic Age dinosaur vomit >>


I see nothing about the age of the planet on there.
>>



yes, but they say that it was 160 million years ago, so you can sssume that the earth is older than 5 million years...
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
"The nuclei of some heavy atoms are unstable. Occasionally, they convert some of their mass into energy, ejecting it in the form of a particle or a photon of radiation. Such atoms are called radioactive. All elements with atomic numbers above 82 are naturally radioactive; additional radioactive isotopes have been artificially created. A radioactive atom may emit an alpha-particle, which consists of two protons and two neutrons (making it identical to the nucleus of a helium atom); a beta-particle, which is an electron; or a gamma-ray, which is a highly energetic photon.

The loss of mass turns the atom into a different element. For example, an atom of uranium may emit an alpha-particle and decay into an atom of thorium (other decays are possible for uranium). Thorium is also radioactive and can decay into palladium. The decay will continue through many steps (and generally over a period of years) until and atom of nonradioactive lead results.

There is no way to know when any particular atom will decay, but by observing a large number of atoms of a particular element, the decay rate over a certain period can be STATISTICALLY predicted. The rate of decay of an element is stated as its half-life, which is the time it will take for half the atoms to decay." The New York Public Library SCIENCE DESK REFERENCE copyright 1995 page 296

"Radioactive elements are unstable. They emit particles and energy at a RELATIVELY constant rate, transforming themselves through the process of radioactive decay into other elements that are stable - not radioactive."found here

"An Evolution Revolution
By: Tiffany Mayer, March 20, 2001

Every so often science is forced to question the status quo and to rethink the views that dominate our world. And sometimes, it takes only a small event to trigger such major change, such as Galileo's telescope, Darwin's trip to the Galapagos Islands, and Einstein's pondering of the nature of space and light.
The same thing might have just happened to our understanding of human prehistory with the radioactive dating of Nanjing Man.

Nanjing Man is the name given to a Homo erectus fossil found in China. He was thought to be around 400,000 years old. But, last month, a quartet of scientists from China and Australia re-dated Nanjing Man using uranium-series dating and found he was actually at least 620,000 years old.

This made the scientists question the dates given to other major archaeological finds - finds that have come to shape evolutionary theory as the world knows it.

Suddenly, Nanjing Man became the catalyst for an evolutionary coup d'etat that could end Mitochondrial Eve's reign as the most accepted theory of human evolution.
The Mitochondrial Eve theory claims Homo sapien populations migrated from Africa between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago and replaced Homo erectus populations wherever they went.

But, based on his new age, Nanjing Man could very well be chalked up as another victory for the less-popular multi-regional model of evolution.

Multi-regionalism argues that modern Asian populations were not replaced by African sapiens. Instead, they evolved directly from Asian Homo erectus and Nanjing Man's new age would provide more time for this evolutionary process to have occurred.

Nanjing Man's age and his implications for evolutionary theory have prompted the Chinese-Australian team of scientists who dated him to re-date other major archaeological finds using the uranium-series dating technique that derived Nanjing Man's age.
"Many Homo erectus sites are not well-dated," says Dr. Ken Collerson, a member of the team who dated Nanjing Man.

This is because of the limited capabilities or questionable results from other dating techniques such as electron-spin resonance, which Collerson refers to as "in the realms of alchemy."

By re-dating major archaeological finds, Collerson says he thinks the multi-regional theory of evolution will displace the Mitochondrial Eve theory as the most accepted evolutionary model.

"If I had to bet, I think the multi-regional model will probably be the one to emerge as a more realistic interpretation."

Zhao Jian-xin, a member of the team that dated Nanjing Man, agrees. An archaeologist since 1997, he started his career as a geologist who knew little about evolutionary theory.
"I think the multi-regional theory, within the next 10 years, will take the upper hand," Zhao says. "The most important thing we want to push is a chronological framework to show that (Mitochondrial Eve) is wrong,"

Zhao says the Eve model's timeline of human evolution is too compressed to be accurate. Modern hominids had to have evolved and replaced ancient hominids around the world in too short a time period for the Eve theory to be plausible.

Nanjing Man's age suggests that Asian erectus had a longer time to evolve into modern hominids than previously thought. This makes it less likely for modern hominids from Africa to have replaced Asian erectus. The two populations would not have overlapped as the Eve theory speculates.

The four scientists credited with dating Nanjing Man measured the decay of radioactive uranium (U) by counting the number of thorium (th) atoms present in the stratigraphic layers above and below where Nanjing Man's fossil was found. They used thermal ionization mass spectrometry (TIMS) to do this.

Over time and at a steady rate, uranium transforms at the atomic level into thorium. This means that as objects age, the amount of thorium they contain increases as the uranium in them decrease. Because this happens at a steady rate, thorium provides a good estimate for the age of rocks.

This provides a bracket of dates between which Nanjing Man lived with the bottom layer providing the earliest possible date and the top layer the latest date.

TIMS U-Th dating is particularly helpful in dating fossils found in limestone caves where a method like potassium argon (KAr) dating would be inadequate.

Potassium argon (KAr) dating uses crystallized volcanic ash found on or around a fossil in an open area to derive the fossil's age. KAr dating is not suited for dating cave fossils because there is often little volcanic ash to be found inside caves for this method to work.

But, TIMS U-Th dating is suited for dating cave fossils because the limestone retains radioactive elements.

TIMS U-Th dating also provides a larger, more accurate window of time for fossil dates, possibly up to one million years, unlike other techniques such as carbon dating.

Carbon dating actually dates the fossil itself, which does not retain any radioactive elements, and only provides a maximum age of up to 50,000 years.

However, TIMS U-Th dating is nothing new. Henry Schwarcz, a geologist at McMaster University in Hamilton, developed it in 1975.

"We've looked for many different clocks to trace human evolution," Schwarcz says. "The decay (of uranium) is like a ticking clock and this will give us an answer. It is the most precise and accurate."

As for the impact that his dating method will have on evolutionary theory, Schwarcz says that while everyone thinks Africa was where all the action was, this idea won't last.

"It appears China was an important area for evolution. This opens up a whole new window into the time scale of human evolution in that part of the world." " found here with pictures
 

zod

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
825
0
0
interesting article petvek.

I haven't read through all the thread, so I don't know if this has been discussed... but there are LOTS of dating methods. And when you have two that agree with each other, you know you're on the right track.

A simple one to understand... Dendrochronology.
Dating through tree ring growth. Good rain season? You get a wider ring. Less? Smaller ring. You have really old trees. You have petrified trees. You have a trees in the same area that will have the same growth pattern that you can plot back year after year. You can look at old wood constructions to see the wood that was used. I believe we can go back almost 10,000 years with this dating in some areas, less in others... which is old enough to verify other dating techniques such as C-14, old enough to verify that the world isn't 5000 years old, but NOT old enough to verify the world is more than 5 billion years old (it is).

Questions?