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i think im becoming a republican..

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My post was designed to create thought and reflection and it did.

His point is that it really didn't.

And you obviously don't care, which kind of reinforces the point.

It's easy to concoct childishly over-simplified scenarios to "prove" one position over another. I could do one just as easily that ends in "Welcome to the Democratic Party".

Adults understand that the real world isn't like that.
 
I'm frankly not that concerned about who you choose to yell at at a given time. What interests me is the false notion of equivalency between the parties. If you prefer, it isn't even whether one is better; it's that the two are very different in numerous ways. Perhaps one is better on certain issues and the other, on other issues, depending on one's opinions and perspectives. I just feel like a lot of independents and "moderates" engage in constant false equivalencies. It's OK to say that one party is behaving worse than the other at a given point in time. It doesn't mean you're picking sides. Really, it doesn't.

So far as the particular question of conservative ideological rigidity, I think we agree that it's a problem but we probably differ on how big a problem it poses right now.

- wolf

When a party has control and yet screws up then yes it's their turn, and yes it's OK to say that one party is behaving worse than another. It's also OK to say that there are equivalencies, such as that both major parties are self serving entities which are more concerned about elections and pushing things which get them credit than to govern properly.
 
Please explain from a conservative perspective how those are identical.

You'd think a conservative argument against rape would be common human decency, but people like you have proven that you have no concept of that. Where you homeschooled by fundies? Because the weird misogyny vibe I'm getting from your posts really seem like its from those types of people.

I did not say they were identical. But common human decency would also make it wrong to beat someone up. Yet rape is considered worse. Why?

There are many differences, but it's hard to figure out how to explain them to someone who apparently needs them explained to him. One of those, "if you have to ask..." moments if ever there was one.

So I take you cannot do it. Kinda disturbing if you ask me.
 
His point is that it really didn't.

And you obviously don't care, which kind of reinforces the point.

It's easy to concoct childishly over-simplified scenarios to "prove" one position over another. I could do one just as easily that ends in "Welcome to the Democratic Party".

Adults understand that the real world isn't like that.

So why dont you? I highly doubt you can come up with one as good as the Republican one.
 
His point is that it really didn't.

And you obviously don't care, which kind of reinforces the point.

It's easy to concoct childishly over-simplified scenarios to "prove" one position over another. I could do one just as easily that ends in "Welcome to the Democratic Party".

Adults understand that the real world isn't like that.
People respond to posts for a reason. Those reasons vary. You responded to mine to give me a little lecture. Thanks - I guess. This is a forum on the internet. We're all anonymous. Who cares about any of this? Why should we?

But thanks for sharing.

An afterthought. You say that my post didn't create thought and reflection but yet it got direct replies and secondary and tertiary replies. I'm thinking it accomplished exactly what I wanted. I guess we measure success differently.

As an aside, you've been wearing different hats here. I haven't quite figured out if you're now trying to paint yourself as a moderate or what. Your outside political writings show you to be a progressive so why you'd posture differently here is a bit of a mystery at this point. You came on board as a rabid progressive and now you're toning down. Quite a bit too. I'm leaning towards a social experiment of sorts on your part probably in hopes of inspiration for a book. Just a guess.

My guess is that you want to be taken seriously here. Consistency of position will garner you some respect. Being all over the map - not so much. My lecture is now over. 🙂
 
You say that my post didn't create thought and reflection but yet it got direct replies and secondary and tertiary replies.

Replies don't necessarily mean "thought and reflection". Getting the former is easy; the latter, much more difficult.

I'm thinking it accomplished exactly what I wanted.

I'm sure it did accomplish what you wanted: it annoyed your opponents. As you said: "For most, it really makes their blood pressure rise".

Rainsford made the mistake of thinking you actually might be interested in convincing people to see your side of the story better. Obviously, you are not.
 
I did not say they were identical. But common human decency would also make it wrong to beat someone up. Yet rape is considered worse. Why?

It's a very simple answer. I punch you in the face, you carry it for a few days. I violate you sexually and you carry that with you for the rest of your life. The latter has a substantially greater impact on the victim in many different ways throughout their life.

If you can't understand that simple fact I actually feel kind of sorry for you.
 
It's a very simple answer. I punch you in the face, you carry it for a few days. I violate you sexually and you carry that with you for the rest of your life. The latter has a substantially greater impact on the victim in many different ways throughout their life.

If you can't understand that simple fact I actually feel kind of sorry for you.

But why should being violated sexually carry substantially greater impact. Is this just a patriarchal societal construct?
 
Able to, and it being smart to are not the same. And how many of them are doing it with significant government assistance. With enough bailouts anything is possible!
Still avoiding the point, I see. Many single parents raise kids without government assistance and live well above the poverty level.



Well that is basically how feminists figure out how people are raped. Sorry if your liberal comrades suck.
As I alluded to when you originally raised this point, feminists are not an authority on this subject. I prefer to base by premises on verified data. You are arguing using data that has already been proven to be questionable at best. We call that a straw man argument. Arguing against an absurd position because you cannot argue successfully against the actual position.




What would that tell you? Maybe men are just emotionally stronger? And you didnt provide any statistics on rape and suicide either.
Men commit suicide after being raped, so that kinda shows that your guess that men are just emotionally stronger doesn't explain away the difference. My motive for asking you 'how many men kill themselves after finding out [that their child is not really theirs]' was not for you to provide me the statistic, because as I said, I do not think that statistic has been studied. I asked because I wanted you to think about it. If you do think about it, you will realize that you have never heard of a man killing himself for that reason. Yet, if you google 'man commits suicide after rape' you will find many headlines of men doing just that. Again, this should lead you to question why you think rape is a lesser crime than paternity fraud.

All I can do is give you some evidence though, it is up to you to use your brain and think about it.




The conservative argument for rape being a serious crime basically would come down to sex being special. This probably largely stems from sex leading to pregnancy. Conservatives also value purity which rape obviously violates. Anal rape would violate concepts of purity, and the concept of sex being special.
No, that is your argument. Don't try to pass that shit off as a conservative argument because you would be offending conservatives everywhere.

And note once again you have failed to make the liberal argument for why rape is such a serious crime.
Rape is a kind of assault. Assault is bad. Therefore, rape is bad. Assault hurts the victim. Therefore, rape hurts the victim. There are different degrees of assault just like there are different degrees of rape.

As a thought exercise consider this situation. A young sorority girl gets drunk and passes out at a party. Say some people decided to draw over her face with markers; this would not be considered a big deal. No say instead some frat boys decided to jerk off over her face; this would be considered a big deal and possibly lead to sexual assault charges. Please explain from a liberal perspective what the difference is.
First of all, I am not sure your facial example would qualify as 'rape.' However, it is worse for the simple reason that semen has the potential to spread STDs. Not sure why you can't recognize the difference.

So, how's your relationship with your mother?
 
you know.. im gonna go as far to say that all government is at all.. bad..

you know i think im really truly at heart, an anarchist.

and that this life, is most possibly, a test.. and that we wont truly have happiness or be free of these reigns until we are in some sort of eutopian state (heaven)

i would say any government at all, is evil, and satans work. that is ALL i'm certain of. it's like a prison for our minds.
Is the fire department evil? Satan big on putting out fires?
 
Still avoiding the point, I see. Many single parents raise kids without government assistance and live well above the poverty level.



As I alluded to when you originally raised this point, feminists are not an authority on this subject. I prefer to base by premises on verified data. You are arguing using data that has already been proven to be questionable at best. We call that a straw man argument. Arguing against an absurd position because you cannot argue successfully against the actual position.

Please, liberals use feminist data all the time. Its like a Republican complaining it is unfair you cited Fox news 😛

dank69 said:
Men commit suicide after being raped, so that kinda shows that your guess that men are just emotionally stronger doesn't explain away the difference. My motive for asking you 'how many men kill themselves after finding out [that their child is not really theirs]' was not for you to provide me the statistic, because as I said, I do not think that statistic has been studied. I asked because I wanted you to think about it. If you do think about it, you will realize that you have never heard of a man killing himself for that reason. Yet, if you google 'man commits suicide after rape' you will find many headlines of men doing just that. Again, this should lead you to question why you think rape is a lesser crime than paternity fraud.

All I can do is give you some evidence though, it is up to you to use your brain and think about it.




No, that is your argument. Don't try to pass that shit off as a conservative argument because you would be offending conservatives everywhere.

Rape is a kind of assault. Assault is bad. Therefore, rape is bad. Assault hurts the victim. Therefore, rape hurts the victim. There are different degrees of assault just like there are different degrees of rape.

But why is rape considered a worse kind of assault. That is the fundamental issue.

dank69 said:
First of all, I am not sure your facial example would qualify as 'rape.' However, it is worse for the simple reason that semen has the potential to spread STDs. Not sure why you can't recognize the difference.

So, how's your relationship with your mother?

So if the individuals have recent tests showing them to be STD free it wouldnt be any worse?
 
Please, liberals use feminist data all the time. Its like a Republican complaining it is unfair you cited Fox news 😛
That's your deluded opinion. One liberal using 'feminist' data one time != all the time.


But why is rape considered a worse kind of assault. That is the fundamental issue.
This has some explanation for you. Link
The National Women’s Study identified several critical concerns. To determine whether victims’ concerns have changed over time, the study divided these concerns into two categories: all rape victims vs. victims that had been raped within the previous five years (1987-91). The changes in concerns included:
  • The victim’s relatives knowing about the assault: Relatively little change over time. Seventy-one percent of all victims and 66% of victims within past five years are concerned about relatives finding out about the rape.
  • People blaming the victim:Rape victims are concerned about being blamed for the rape, and this has not changed over time. In fact, 69% of all victims and 66% of recent rape victims say they worry about being blamed.
  • People outside her family knowing she had been sexually assaulted:No significant difference. Sixty-eight percent of all victims and 61% of rape victims within the past five years are concerned about this.
  • The victim’s identity being revealed in the news media: Women raped within the last five years are more likely to be concerned about the possibility of their names being published than all rape victims (60% vs. 50%).
  • Becoming pregnant: Sixty-one percent of recent rape victims, as opposed to 34% of all rape victims, are concerned about getting pregnant.
  • Contracting a sexually transmitted disease (not including HIV/AIDS): Recent rape victims were more than twice as concerned as all rape victims about contracting sexually transmitted diseases. (43% Vs 19%).
  • Contracting HIV/AIDS: Recent rape victims were four times more likely than all victims to be concerned about getting HIV/AIDS as a result of the rape - regardless of the recency of the rape (40% Vs 10%).

    The stigma of rape persists. Victims are greatly concerned about others discovering they were raped. Service providers and criminal justice officials should endeavor to maintain the confidentiality and respect the privacy needs of victims



So if the individuals have recent tests showing them to be STD free it wouldnt be any worse?
Spreading STDs is only one factor. Some other factors would be psychological ones similar to the ones listed above. But tell me, what would be worse, you drawing on your mom's face with a marker or you jerking off on your mom's face?
 
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That's your deluded opinion. One liberal using 'feminist' data one time != all the time.



This has some explanation for you. Link

So we have

Not wanting other people to know
Fear of being blamed
Pregnancy
STDs

"The stigma of rape persists. Victims are greatly concerned about others discovering they were raped"

So basically rape is bad because Patriarchal society says their is a stigma associated with being a rape victim. Which would mean in say a feminist non-Patriarchal society rape would not be as big of deal and would be more like say being punched in the face.

dank69 said:
Spreading STDs is only one factor. Some other factors would be psychological ones similar to the ones listed above. But tell me, what would be worse, you drawing on your mom's face with a marker or you jerking off on your mom's face?

Well I happen to believe incest is wrong, but that is probably because I am a bigot.
 
this is actually a really good argument here about rape... i'm divided..

do other high intelligence primates feel "ashamed" when they've been raped?

if not, it's a creation of society... which would mean, a creation of intelligence, as in, the apple in the garden of eden... it's satan's work..

if they DO show shame after being raped (lets leave it at hetero rape) because homo rape... well let's leave it at that.
 
So we have

Not wanting other people to know
Fear of being blamed
Pregnancy
STDs

"The stigma of rape persists. Victims are greatly concerned about others discovering they were raped"

So basically rape is bad because Patriarchal society says their is a stigma associated with being a rape victim. Which would mean in say a feminist non-Patriarchal society rape would not be as big of deal and would be more like say being punched in the face.
In fact it seems that the reason that rape trauma exists is largely because society considers it to be a big deal
Healthy, well adjusted people do not blame the rape victim for being raped, yet the victim still fears that they will. Society does not cause this. So it seems you are wrong about this.



Well I happen to believe incest is wrong, but that is probably because I am a bigot.
Incest requires sex to happen, so jerking off on your mom's face would not qualify as incest. Try again.
 
this is actually a really good argument here about rape... i'm divided..

do other high intelligence primates feel "ashamed" when they've been raped?

if not, it's a creation of society... which would mean, a creation of intelligence, as in, the apple in the garden of eden... it's satan's work..

if they DO show shame after being raped (lets leave it at hetero rape) because homo rape... well let's leave it at that.
Do other high intelligence primates feel ashamed about anything?
 
no joke... im starting to feel like... man.. i've worked hard to have the (few) things i do... maybe people are just pussies... i've always liked the democrats because, the democratic way is to help others... help people who maybe weren't born as smart as i am.. who didnt have the things i did to get where i have.. but maybe.. just maybe.. i did that. maybe others who haven't gotten here dont deserve to live nicely, and to have cars, and money, and, even though i dont have alot of things i would like to.. i will. one day.. maybe i shouldn't want to give to welfare..

fuck i dont know.

Sounds to me like you're giving up on Christianity too. . .
 
Healthy, well adjusted people do not blame the rape victim for being raped, yet the victim still fears that they will. Society does not cause this. So it seems you are wrong about this.

Patriarchal society says that women are responsible for their chastity and their actions can contribute to them being "raped".

Feminists are the ones that say nothing a woman does can even contribute to her being raped.

dank69 said:
Incest requires sex to happen, so jerking off on your mom's face would not qualify as incest. Try again.

Please jerking off on your mom's or sister's face would be considered wrong even if you had their consent... because it would be considered incestuous.

Between straw man arguments and confusing discussion points....

Must we explain the difference between trauma and stigma?

The emotional trauma the rape victim experiences is a result of the stigma from a patriarchal value system. What is confusing to understand about that?
 
Patriarchal society says that women are responsible for their chastity and their actions can contribute to them being "raped".

Feminists are the ones that say nothing a woman does can even contribute to her being raped.
And neither of those have anything to do with why our society considers rape a crime.



Please jerking off on your mom's or sister's face would be considered wrong even if you had their consent... because it would be considered incestuous.


...
You don't get to change the meaning of words in order to support your positions. Sorry.
 
And neither of those have anything to do with why our society considers rape a crime.

We are not debating why rape is a crime. We are debating why it is considered to be so serious :\

The reason you gave was emotional trauma. But the emotional trauma is caused by a patriarchal value system. Which would seem to mean that under a feminist value system rape should not be considered to be so serious of a crime.

dank69 said:
You don't get to change the meaning of words in order to support your positions. Sorry.

I am not changing the definition of words. I am sorry but if you jerked off on your mom's face most people would consider that an incestuous act. Because it is a sex act.

And if not then there really is no difference between jerking off on someone's face and drawing on it with marker.
 
We are not debating why rape is a crime. We are debating why it is considered to be so serious :\

The reason you gave was emotional trauma. But the emotional trauma is caused by a patriarchal value system. Which would seem to mean that under a feminist value system rape should not be considered to be so serious of a crime.



I am not changing the definition of words. I am sorry but if you jerked off on your mom's face most people would consider that an incestuous act. Because it is a sex act.

And if not then there really is no difference between jerking off on someone's face and drawing on it with marker.

You are completely ignoring the extreme sense of violation experienced by the individual and their own trauma from such an event that they alone have to deal with. That hs nothing to do with societal influence of any kind. That is their own hell to have to live with.
 
just to be clear: greed is working your arse off all your life to make a bit of money for your self, your family and your children so you can all live a life without having to worry about food and shelter. also, paying taxes all you life.

if that is greed, I want to be the greediest person around!
 
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