"I studied computer science, not English. I still can’t find a job."

[HumblePie]

Degrees just help you meet minimum qualifications to get a job. If you know people, you don't even need that to land your first job. I think the biggest problem with future graduates is they don't push hard enough to get internships and boost real-world experience. Most Universities give you those options because employers want to cultivate a workforce by taking the path of least resistance. Teaching young folks and paying them $12/hour is a win/win....

Those who buckle down and try to graduate without getting that experience find themselves with no contacts at the back of the line.

Personally, I was fortunate enough to start work at the age of 19 and land my first career job at 22. A lot can be said for career planning, having the right personality, and knowing how to network.

I think people leave college expecting 6 figure salary. If you majored in petroleum engineering you can expect that. Everything else, you start at the bottom. As a Comp Sci major it took a few years of work at the bottom. I didn't start off at even $50k. I started $35K, and now I make over 6 figures. Again, it was working my way from bottom up.

 

[smackababy]

This "who you know not what you know" bs is just that: a big load of BS! I don't give a shit if you knew Alan Turing and Bill Gates when you're applying to Microsoft. That doesn't mean shit if you can't get past the most basic of technical interviews. And, if that was the case, the job wouldn't have been listed. Nobody has an HR application that scans references for name dropping, and if they do, they are going out of business soon.

If a company is willing to interview you, they are willing to hire you. And that is where 95% of applicants fail. And, I am certain that is where the OP of the article is failing. He either doesn't know his shit or is a terrible interviewer, possibly both.

 

[brianmanahan]

The problem with kids today is that millenials are so lazy they struggle to get their foot in the door in trades with actually relevant degrees. Back in the 50's people made a Liberal Arts degree work.

i find your overuse of generalization disturbing

 

[Ns1]

This "who you know not what you know" bs is just that: a big load of BS! I don't give a shit if you knew Alan Turing and Bill Gates when you're applying to Microsoft. That doesn't mean shit if you can't get past the most basic of technical interviews. And, if that was the case, the job wouldn't have been listed. Nobody has an HR application that scans references for name dropping, and if they do, they are going out of business soon.

If a company is willing to interview you, they are willing to hire you. And that is where 95% of applicants fail. And, I am certain that is where the OP of the article is failing. He either doesn't know his shit or is a terrible interviewer, possibly both.

The correct statement is "it's who you know AND what you know".

 

[HumblePie]

This "who you know not what you know" bs is just that: a big load of BS! I don't give a shit if you knew Alan Turing and Bill Gates when you're applying to Microsoft. That doesn't mean shit if you can't get past the most basic of technical interviews. And, if that was the case, the job wouldn't have been listed. Nobody has an HR application that scans references for name dropping, and if they do, they are going out of business soon.

If a company is willing to interview you, they are willing to hire you. And that is where 95% of applicants fail. And, I am certain that is where the OP of the article is failing. He either doesn't know his shit or is a terrible interviewer, possibly both.

References have gotten me jobs in the past. Which is typically why most people put references to their past professional jobs. If the reference you put on your resume happens to also be someone that works at the company, especially in a higher position, it certainly helps in getting you hired if you know enough to get hired on with.

Unless we are discussing "family" businesses and such. That's a different matter.

 

[MrPickins]

A true CS program, sure. One of the "softer" degrees like MIS, no.

Exactly, and the guy in the article earned a CIS degree.

Had he gone with CS, I bet he'd have a lot easier time finding work.

MIS is obviously a Business Degree (which I am). I get the fact that CS is "under" the school of Math a lot of times, but I find it god damn laughable to be considered a math degree in all honesty. There wasn't any other elements of math outside of some advanced calc (which I had to take for my CIS degree anyway).

I heavily debated between my CIS degree and going CS. Originally I was going to stick my nerd and go CS, but realized the opportunity was clear and cut within CIS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_mathematics

 

[sze5003]

People need to do internships in college. Most IT and programming internships also pay you so it should not be hard. We just had a few interns who knew nothing about how my company specifically writes code and what we do, but over the course of 3 months they did a great job while learning. One who is a senior in college was asked to work part time while finishing school. Another intern from last year got a full time job but I think his family knows the ceo so that could be different.

 

[CountZero]

And, nearly every technical interviewer I talked with complained about how so few people (including those with degrees, which I don't have) couldn't answer the most basic of questions.

This is something I've seen in engineering as well. I do digital VLSI work. Had a phone screen to do. Their resume had 2-3 VLSI courses and mentioned working on CMOS projects for school. First question was about inverters, not how to make an inverter as that is extremely basic. After struggling to answer the question with any semblance of understanding I dialed it back further and further. She couldn't even describe how to use one nmos and one pmos to make an inverter. Couldn't tell me the difference between the two. So I quit mos and went to see if she had even seen a bjt, nope. Then I tried diode, yes! But she got the diode question wrong as well. I don't know how she was taking the classes she listed as she knew only slightly more about the topic as my English major wife knows.

Several others have been fairly poor as well but this one was astounding in how poor it was. If you are graduating STEM without any intern/coop experience I'd be hesitant to even interview you as the ramp up time is going to be extreme.

 

[holden j caufield]

From everything I've seen, development jobs are moving from outsourced to America. Because, in the long run, it is actually cheaper. An in house team, while the workers are paid more, generally take less time and have to do less rewrites than outsourced code. At least, that is what I've been told. There is no shortage of programming jobs for good developers, the problem is most aren't good developers.

I agree with this, but I think the cost of business in america is too high. The cost of company insurance, medical, dental, eye, workers comp, 401k other ins makes the US employee a lot more expensive.

 

[Fox5]

I take offense to the title of this thread, the guy did not study computer science.
He studied "Information Systems," which is a tech degree that came out of the dotcom bubble to capitalize on the industry's demand for anyone who could computer.

As far as his whining about having to teach himself new skills and technologies...welcome to any career field, ever? Getting a 4 year degree doesn't make you employee for the rest of your life with those skills.

Also, the guy sounds like he really just wanted a business degree.

I get the fact that CS is "under" the school of Math a lot of times, but I find it god damn laughable to be considered a math degree in all honesty.

CS at a decent school has a fair amount of math. You'll take up to calc 2, linear algebra, prob&stat (calculus based), and discrete mathematics. You'll also have at least a few classes dealing with algorithms, data structures, the theory of computation, and maybe number theory and graph theory. They taught programming structure and design as well (object oriented programming, software engineering), but I have to say that most college professors seem to be very poor programmers.

That said, STEM degrees are rarely useful on their own. Engineering certainly is, and CS can be, but math and most of the other sciences are really just grad school prep. Pretty much everyone wants you to come out of school with experience, and if you can't find internships or do projects on the side, you're stuck with going to grad school to get some experience.

I agree with this, but I think the cost of business in america is too high. The cost of company insurance, medical, dental, eye, workers comp, 401k other ins makes the US employee a lot more expensive.

From what I've seen, competent developers are worth whatever they cost. I'd take 2 all star developers at $100k a year each that can get a project done on time and will use best practices and have low rates of error, than I would take 20 poor developers.
In reality, you always want to start with the all star developers, and then add on as many good developers as you need to scale your development. You don't want to hire any mediocre developers at all, they'll hurt the team more than they add to it. Even if they were working for free, they're still a negative to the team.

 

[halik]

CS at a decent school has a fair amount of math. You'll take up to calc 2, linear algebra, prob&stat (calculus based), and discrete mathematics. You'll also have at least a few classes dealing with algorithms, data structures, the theory of computation, and maybe number theory and graph theory. They taught programming structure and design as well (object oriented programming, software engineering), but I have to say that most college professors seem to be very poor programmers.

IIRC two more math classes and you'd have math minor in my CS program.

 

[Ns1]

oh yeah, as a *IS degree holder myself, I was never under any impression that I'd be able to code with it. Didn't have a single CS class in college, just database/systems classes.

*IS is totally not a STEM major, it's a business major for CS rejects.

 

[Grooveriding]

The way things are today I think a BA is just the foundation. You need to do more, barring a few professions. I completely exited university just a little over a year ago and I'm 37. You need more than a BA these days to be highly employable.

Also, yes, math/sciences/law or don't bother with post-secondary education.

 

[OverVolt]

oh yeah, as a *IS degree holder myself, I was never under any impression that I'd be able to code with it. Didn't have a single CS class in college, just database/systems classes.

*IS is totally not a STEM major, it's a business major for CS rejects.

But his parents have never been prouder!

 

[MrPickins]

I take offense to the title of this thread, the guy did not study computer science.
He studied "Information Systems," which is a tech degree that came out of the dotcom bubble to capitalize on the industry's demand for anyone who could computer.

This.

IIRC two more math classes and you'd have math minor in my CS program.

That's exactly how it was in my program as well.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Bull fucking shit. My CS degree gave me the absolutely necessary foundations of anything that deals with computers. I can already tell this guy is fucking moron - knowing concepts like multithreading, memory management, design patterns in the critical part, who gives a shit if your assignments were in C or C++ or whatever archaic language.

EDIT: Yup, he's a fucking moron. From the first comment:


CS to MIS is what MD is to Hospital Information Management

Threads misleading since he didn't even have a CS degree.

Those things will help you immensely with programming, but with CS if you follow along just doing what the college/university tells you, it is actually easy to end up with a lot of theory but not the complete package to turn it into a job. I was a good programmer coming out of college; However, not doing any internships or really working on side projects, I didn't have the credentials to actually land an interview at companies (didn't help that I was in a bad area for it and lacked mobility). I ended up enlisting in the Air Force when they offered me the computer programming career field.

 

[Fayd]

MIS is obviously a Business Degree (which I am). I get the fact that CS is "under" the school of Math a lot of times, but I find it god damn laughable to be considered a math degree in all honesty. There wasn't any other elements of math outside of some advanced calc (which I had to take for my CIS degree anyway).

I heavily debated between my CIS degree and going CS. Originally I was going to stick my nerd and go CS, but realized the opportunity was clear and cut within CIS.

huh? i'm not a CS student but i've taken some similar classes, (i have an MS in statistics) and I would think the most important math course for CS students would be linear algebra, followed by discrete math and whatever class you learn boolean algebra in. I can't imagine why calc would even be useful.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

huh? i'm not a CS student but i've taken some similar classes, (i have an MS in statistics) and I would think the most important math course for CS students would be linear algebra. I can't imagine why calc would even be useful.

I had to take calc one and two. Aside from just improving problem solving and getting one's head more used to that level of math in case whatever you work on needs it, it's not really useful. Same reason I had to take physics and chemistry and to a lesser extent some humanities. Part of getting a BS is making you an all around student.

 

[MrPickins]

huh? i'm not a CS student but i've taken some similar classes, (i have an MS in statistics) and I would think the most important math course for CS students would be linear algebra, followed by discrete math and whatever class you learn boolean algebra in. I can't imagine why calc would even be useful.

Linear Algebra was an elective in my program, but I took it anyway. It can be extremely helpful or almost unused depending on the field of programming you're in.

Two years of Discrete Mathematics was required, and very helpful. That's one of the few textbooks I kept.

 

[yllus]

Our "business courses with a bit of computer stuff thrown in" programs are generally known as Information Technology Management (ITM) degrees, not as MIS.

The same disillusionment seems to occur shortly after graduates to the folks I know who take that up here in Canada as well. I guess it comes from not realizing that there are those of us who develop energetically and even in our free time to compete against. Nobody I know is silly enough to write in a nationally read newspaper about it, though...

 

[MtnMan]

Did college grads waste their time for 4 years and did not get the necessary skill sets? This guy thinks so. What do ya'll think?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...ineering-not-english-i-still-cant-find-a-job/

Do you have any certifications in the field? Or just a lot of different courses listed on your transcript that are computer related.

 

[Imp]

I'm drunk right now, but isn't the OP article just click bait? Write something provocative, get people to look?

For someone who can't find a job, he's somehow a "columnist for The Patriot News" and "owner of Plato Web Design"? There's a hyperlink to his company's site on his name.

 

[Svnla]

Do you have any certifications in the field? Or just a lot of different courses listed on your transcript that are computer related.

Hummm. I did NOT write the article in the first post. Not sure why you quoted and asked me.

I just provided the article from another college grad for everyone to read and discuss.

 

[HumblePie]

Linear Algebra was an elective in my program, but I took it anyway. It can be extremely helpful or almost unused depending on the field of programming you're in.

Two years of Discrete Mathematics was required, and very helpful. That's one of the few textbooks I kept.

Trying to remember all the math I took. I did go for the minor in math. I almost went for a double major. Discrete, probability and statistics (ugh), cal 1-3, linear algebra, differential equations, functional analysis, matrix math (which I don't see listed on course lists anymore), and I think number theory. I also had some physics courses thrown in there with mechanical, electrical, and quantum stuff.

I think that was all the math I took. Maybe advanced cal? Been so long and I rarely ever use it anymore. Go 14 years without touching it hardcore anymore and it all falls out of your head.

Just a pure CS degree when I was graduating didn't require a few of what I took. I know the basics of what I had to take for just the CS degree was all the cals, statistics, and either linear or matrix or differential equations. You only had to take 1 not all three if memory serves me, but I went for the gusto because I could. The CS degree program I graduated with only required 134 credits or something like that. I had over 200.

I have all my text books at home at least. Never sold a single one of them. I know it's a bit weird.

 

[sourceninja]

This "who you know not what you know" bs is just that: a big load of BS! I don't give a shit if you knew Alan Turing and Bill Gates when you're applying to Microsoft. That doesn't mean shit if you can't get past the most basic of technical interviews. And, if that was the case, the job wouldn't have been listed. Nobody has an HR application that scans references for name dropping, and if they do, they are going out of business soon.

If a company is willing to interview you, they are willing to hire you. And that is where 95% of applicants fail. And, I am certain that is where the OP of the article is failing. He either doesn't know his shit or is a terrible interviewer, possibly both.

I think good networking can go a long way. I've gotten at least 3 jobs simply because I knew a guy from a previous job who vouched for me. I recently got filled a position at my company with a guy based almost exclusively on my word alone and a 15 minute in person interview. This is where a good intership can go a long way. My students who had interships almost all got jobs. The ones who skipped out had a much harder time finding the connections needed to get a job.