I saw Sicko from Michael Moore Yesterday..

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DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.

Oh, and Michael's FAT. And ugly. That's why his movies suck and he lies so much.


No wonder this country is in the toilet. If anyone tries to EVEN PRESENT something against the status quo, the rabid right will lie, and then personally attack the person. The majority of Americans are happy to join on ANY "Hate-Bandwagon". So disgusting...
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,361
2
0
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.

Oh, and Michael's FAT. And ugly. That's why his movies suck and he lies so much.


No wonder this country is in the toilet. If anyone tries to EVEN PRESENT something against the status quo, the rabid right will lie, and then personally attack the person. The majority of Americans are happy to join on ANY "Hate-Bandwagon". So disgusting...
Your post is a perfect example of why people don't like Moore - because he trys to tell them what their views are, instead of letting them decide what their views are.
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.

Oh, and Michael's FAT. And ugly. That's why his movies suck and he lies so much.


No wonder this country is in the toilet. If anyone tries to EVEN PRESENT something against the status quo, the rabid right will lie, and then personally attack the person. The majority of Americans are happy to join on ANY "Hate-Bandwagon". So disgusting...
Your post is a perfect example of why people don't like Moore - because he trys to tell them what their views are, instead of letting them decide what their views are.
Huh? People shouldn't hear other viewpoints?

Wait a minute. Has that been the tactic of right wing radio and TV? The left has NOTHING like this. MM movies can't hold a candle to the distortion to the truth of right wing media. Like I said, they blatantly use lies, hate, and fear to instruct people what to believe.

Am I lying? Go ask 10 random people who was behind the 911 attacks. See what they say... At least F911 present the truth at least on that topic.

That said, I don't recommend getting all your news for ANY one source. I recommend people also read foreign newspapers online to get the balance of real news in the US.
 

jmanny

Member
Apr 12, 2007
116
0
76
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
That's great for you, but how about my friend who was born with bad kidneys. He's been working since he was 17. Now he's borderline on needing dialysis. He's too sick to work. He doesn't have insurance. His parents don't have any money. Doctors are afraid to touch him. All he wants to do is to continue to work. It's killing him that he can't.

He's trying to apply for SSI, but he's getting the runaround. The last thing they told him was that once he's finally on dialysis, then he'll qualify. The last time he went to a doctor, he was told that he could get more healthy, but it would take operations.

He's screwed. And he doesn't HAVE to be.

But at least you're happy. Congrats.


Edit: FWIW, he was involved in a car accident also, which made his health worse. He was awarded about $30,000. He used the majority of the cash to pay hospital bills that he already accrued. The system is completely f*%$ed.
 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
65
91
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.
never saw it.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.
A gun problem? Only if the problem is too many good people do not have guns and too many bad people do. The real problem is this country is poor parenting and bad sexual education.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?
At the point this was released, everybody already knew this and nobody really cares anymore. We are awaiting our police state so we can revolt.

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.
Not only Jesus, but atheists too, cause without death, there can be no evolution. But no, we need to keep poor people alive. I need someone to take out my trash, wash my clothes, etc.

 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
2
0
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
HOLY TALK RADIO PROPAGANDA BATMAN!!

I don't really understand how what you described is worse than an insurance company. I've never been to their offices, so I don't know if their employees are "uninterested", but I have a hard time believing they care about me more than profits. The one time I HAVE used my insurance, they turned it down for no apparent reason, and I don't have the time or desire to deal with it so I let it go. Again, I never saw any of those people, so it makes no difference to me whether they are interested or not.

I don't understand this BS about Congress "not getting things done"... Sounds like the standard Republican doublespeak for "they didn't pass my bill". Do you understand that this is a democracy and they are elected representatives? They aren't a task force created to get things done. They vote on bills. Did Bush not get the child healthcare bill done by vetoing it? What a slacker!!

 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,361
2
0
Originally posted by: DefDC
Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.

Oh, and Michael's FAT. And ugly. That's why his movies suck and he lies so much.


No wonder this country is in the toilet. If anyone tries to EVEN PRESENT something against the status quo, the rabid right will lie, and then personally attack the person. The majority of Americans are happy to join on ANY "Hate-Bandwagon". So disgusting...
Your post is a perfect example of why people don't like Moore - because he trys to tell them what their views are, instead of letting them decide what their views are.
Huh? People shouldn't hear other viewpoints?

Wait a minute. Has that been the tactic of right wing radio and TV? The left has NOTHING like this. MM movies can't hold a candle to the distortion to the truth of right wing media. Like I said, they blatantly use lies, hate, and fear to instruct people what to believe.
Duck and dodge. Left, right, middle - irrelivent for this topic. People plainly do not like Moore because he tells people what their views should be based on his opinions.

 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Originally posted by: sourceninja
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.
never saw it.

----
It's worth a look. Ironic now that they are doing so crappy.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.
A gun problem? Only if the problem is too many good people do not have guns and too many bad people do. The real problem is this country is poor parenting and bad sexual education.


---
MM agrees with you... He's a life long NRA member and has no problem with guns. He was just wondering about why we're more violent to each other than countries with the same amount of guns.

(FWIW, I think you both are nuts. I loved the riflery range as a kid at camp, but came to notice how much guns made people nuts. (Especially the already crazy) But, I don't have a solution to propose other than NOT hassling legal guns buyers with any more BS and enforcing the laws on the books.)

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?
At the point this was released, everybody already knew this and nobody really cares anymore. We are awaiting our police state so we can revolt.

---
Another agreement.

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.
Not only Jesus, but atheists too, cause without death, there can be no evolution. But no, we need to keep poor people alive. I need someone to take out my trash, wash my clothes, etc.


---
Right. We DO need poor people. Especially HEALTHY poor people. They do the majority of heavy lifting in this country.


Glad to have you on board! ;)
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,319
1,707
126
About Sicko.... I agree that it was one sided. I'm glad the whole Cuba thing was at the end of the movie...I wouldn't have watched it if they had thrown that in the beginning.

Our current health care system is bad because of insurance companies have so many customers they have to create forms with boxes (check yes or no) describing different conditions. The body is a lot more complex than that and if you don't have a disease that's been classified, your treatment may not be covered simply because it's not been proven to work yet. There's also the problem with doctors that prescribe too many of the newer drugs before trying the older ones on a patient first. (many newer antibiotics for instance may be $400/perscription when you can get a 30 year old antibiotic for $4/perscription without insurance.) I understand that newer drugs may have less resistance, but doctors need to assess the costs to the patient and the insurance companies. Many younger ones do not.

We do have a health care system already run by the government. Your local Health Department... Of course, I understand they won't take your appendix out, but I would like to see some governement-run hospitals classified as non-profit entities and take insurance (HMOs, PPOs, etc) and start to use competition to regulate the costs that hospitals are inflating in the name of profit. (non-profit, meaning they would put their money into the facility, staffing, and operational costs) Everyone I've spoken with believes a govt hospital wouldn't be able to support itselt and that it would be poor quality. I think it can be successful if it's run properly from the start and regulated closely.

Universal health care system? It probably won't happen unless we can get past some serious issues. Most people are divided on this issue. I think if those on the other side can at least admit that the current system is screwed up for a large percentage of the population, that's the first step in finding something to help lower the crazy costs associated with hospitals...
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Originally posted by: DefDC
Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.

Oh, and Michael's FAT. And ugly. That's why his movies suck and he lies so much.


No wonder this country is in the toilet. If anyone tries to EVEN PRESENT something against the status quo, the rabid right will lie, and then personally attack the person. The majority of Americans are happy to join on ANY "Hate-Bandwagon". So disgusting...
Your post is a perfect example of why people don't like Moore - because he trys to tell them what their views are, instead of letting them decide what their views are.
Huh? People shouldn't hear other viewpoints?

Wait a minute. Has that been the tactic of right wing radio and TV? The left has NOTHING like this. MM movies can't hold a candle to the distortion to the truth of right wing media. Like I said, they blatantly use lies, hate, and fear to instruct people what to believe.
Duck and dodge. Left, right, middle - irrelivent for this topic. People plainly do not like Moore because he tells people what their views should be based on his opinions.
WTF? He's not writing a history book. It's not the nightly news. It's a movie! That's exactly what it's SUPPOSED to be. Was anyone thinking any different? You're not making any sense...

Right wing media told the people that they shouldn't like MM. That's the reason they don't like him. Most rational people that I know, on both sides, find his movies, at least, interesting.

The facts he presents, are just that. Facts.

The opinions he expresses are VERY TRANSPARENT. This isn't hard to see. And I don't think he was ever trying to "tell people what their opinions are".

In fact, now I'm really intrigued. Can you tell me, from any of his movies, what opinion he was trying to tell you was true?
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,361
2
0
Originally posted by: DefDC
Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Originally posted by: DefDC
Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Originally posted by: DefDC
Moore haters are funny. They hate him because:

Roger and Me:
GM made a perfectly moral decision to destroy Michigan. For more profit. When they were insanely profitable.

Bowling:
America DOESN'T have a problem with violence and guns. Anyone who thinks so is a commie.

F911:
GWB is a GREAT president, and DIDN'T even avoid his Guard service, and wasn't a poor businessman, cokehead, drunk... And his family had no business dealings with our "enemy", and didn't use fear tactics to distract the public from blatant moneygrabs that caused mass amounts of loss of human life and then lied to cover it up. We certainly didn't attack the wrong country. All the hijackers here Iraqi, right?

Sicko: Poor people are leeches on society. They should just die if they can't pay. That's the American Way and the way Jesus would want it.

Oh, and Michael's FAT. And ugly. That's why his movies suck and he lies so much.


No wonder this country is in the toilet. If anyone tries to EVEN PRESENT something against the status quo, the rabid right will lie, and then personally attack the person. The majority of Americans are happy to join on ANY "Hate-Bandwagon". So disgusting...
Your post is a perfect example of why people don't like Moore - because he trys to tell them what their views are, instead of letting them decide what their views are.
Huh? People shouldn't hear other viewpoints?

Wait a minute. Has that been the tactic of right wing radio and TV? The left has NOTHING like this. MM movies can't hold a candle to the distortion to the truth of right wing media. Like I said, they blatantly use lies, hate, and fear to instruct people what to believe.
Duck and dodge. Left, right, middle - irrelivent for this topic. People plainly do not like Moore because he tells people what their views should be based on his opinions.
WTF? He's not writing a history book. It's not the nightly news. It's a movie! That's exactly what it's SUPPOSED to be. Was anyone thinking any different? You're not making any sense...

Right wing media told the people that they shouldn't like MM. That's the reason they don't like him. Most rational people that I know, on both sides, find his movies, at least, interesting.

The facts he presents, are just that. Facts.

The opinions he expresses are VERY TRANSPARENT. This isn't hard to see. And I don't think he was ever trying to "tell people what their opinions are".

In fact, now I'm really intrigued. Can you tell me, from any of his movies, what opinion he was trying to tell you was true?
More of the same.

People don't like Moore because he tells people what he thinks they should be thinking about issues based on his personal opinions.
 

jmanny

Member
Apr 12, 2007
116
0
76
Originally posted by: DefDC
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
That's great for you, but how about my friend who was born with bad kidneys. He's been working since he was 17. Now he's borderline on needing dialysis. He's too sick to work. He doesn't have insurance. His parents don't have any money. Doctors are afraid to touch him. All he wants to do is to continue to work. It's killing him that he can't.

He's trying to apply for SSI, but he's getting the runaround. The last thing they told him was that once he's finally on dialysis, then he'll qualify. The last time he went to a doctor, he was told that he could get more healthy, but it would take operations.

He's screwed. And he doesn't HAVE to be.

But at least you're happy. Congrats.


Edit: FWIW, he was involved in a car accident also, which made his health worse. He was awarded about $30,000. He used the majority of the cash to pay hospital bills that he already accrued. The system is completely f*%$ed.


I feel for your friend, in a perfect world he wouldn't face those problems but we don't live in a perfect world. Your right, the system is completely f!@%ed, I don't disagree at all. But........there are already programs in place such as SSI... as you said he's getting the runaround. Well welcome to Socialized Medicine. SSI is run by the GOVERNMENT....whats gonna change when your helathcare is run THE SAME WAY? Can't people see that if health care is run the same way as SSI, Medicaid and Medicare, nothing is going to change, well thats not exactly correct, the amount that you and I are taxed to pay for it is going to make you cry. But I guess thats ok for many. I know i work my a@@ off each week to earn my pay and I already pay close to $300/month for my healthcare. But when you earn $800 a week gross and net $300, thank universal healthcare for that. People take off the Rose Colored glasses and see that government run programs don't work. Government is not your 'Nanny' but it seems that most people want it to be.

In situations where people don't have money for care, there is Medicare,Medicad already in place. But again it is run by government, and is inherently inefficient, and bogged down by red tape and regulations. There has to be an answer for the healthcare issues that the country faces, but as I said, in my opinion it's not the government that's going to fix it.

Flame AWAY!!
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Originally posted by: Scarpozzi
About Sicko.... I agree that it was one sided. I'm glad the whole Cuba thing was at the end of the movie...I wouldn't have watched it if they had thrown that in the beginning.

Our current health care system is bad because of insurance companies have so many customers they have to create forms with boxes (check yes or no) describing different conditions. The body is a lot more complex than that and if you don't have a disease that's been classified, your treatment may not be covered simply because it's not been proven to work yet. There's also the problem with doctors that prescribe too many of the newer drugs before trying the older ones on a patient first. (many newer antibiotics for instance may be $400/perscription when you can get a 30 year old antibiotic for $4/perscription without insurance.) I understand that newer drugs may have less resistance, but doctors need to assess the costs to the patient and the insurance companies. Many younger ones do not.

We do have a health care system already run by the government. Your local Health Department... Of course, I understand they won't take your appendix out, but I would like to see some governement-run hospitals classified as non-profit entities and take insurance (HMOs, PPOs, etc) and start to use competition to regulate the costs that hospitals are inflating in the name of profit. (non-profit, meaning they would put their money into the facility, staffing, and operational costs) Everyone I've spoken with believes a govt hospital wouldn't be able to support itselt and that it would be poor quality. I think it can be successful if it's run properly from the start and regulated closely.

Universal health care system? It probably won't happen unless we can get past some serious issues. Most people are divided on this issue. I think if those on the other side can at least admit that the current system is screwed up for a large percentage of the population, that's the first step in finding something to help lower the crazy costs associated with hospitals...
Yup. You're on the money. Speaking of money, if I remember correctly, the health care lobby is the largest in the world. Before people make up their mind that national health care would be too expensive, choice would be gone, and quality would be low, we need to look beyond the fact sheet presented to us by the lobbyists. Obviously they don't want the gravy train derailed.

Do people really think that the US couldn't do a better job with public health care? Am I wrong, or are we all paying more and more out of our paycheck for health care? My families' coverage cost has gone up more than 300% with higher co-pays in the last year. When the economy does poorly, our benefits get worse. When the economy does well, our benefits get worse. However, the insurance companies are making record profits. Does anyone see a trend? If we had public health care, at least we could vote our concerns. As it is now, it's gets worse, and we have NO recourse.

An "Apollo" program on energy and health care would propel us forward as the human race. Unfortunately, the shadowy characters behind the status quo will never allow this to happen. Not while there are profits to be made with the current system.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
6
76
As long as healthcare is for profit and not for the people it will stay the way it is in the USA.

I was in line at the pharmacy yesterday and an old man was in front.
He looked to be in his late 80's and the pharacist was trying to explain to him that he couldn't get his medicine filled because medicare required special approval for the drug.

I felt really bad for the guy, he kept turning around and apologizing to me about taking so long. I kept telling him it was ok, I understood.

That makes me want to slap all our government 'officials' .

Sicko is not going to change much in the USA, but atleast it did give some people some information about other healthcare systems.

 

jmanny

Member
Apr 12, 2007
116
0
76
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
HOLY TALK RADIO PROPAGANDA BATMAN!!

I don't really understand how what you described is worse than an insurance company. I've never been to their offices, so I don't know if their employees are "uninterested", but I have a hard time believing they care about me more than profits. The one time I HAVE used my insurance, they turned it down for no apparent reason, and I don't have the time or desire to deal with it so I let it go. Again, I never saw any of those people, so it makes no difference to me whether they are interested or not.

I don't understand this BS about Congress "not getting things done"... Sounds like the standard Republican doublespeak for "they didn't pass my bill". Do you understand that this is a democracy and they are elected representatives? They aren't a task force created to get things done. They vote on bills. Did Bush not get the child healthcare bill done by vetoing it? What a slacker!!
Whatever...I'm too busy working to listen to Right Wing Radio as you think. As a matter of fact I'm between interviews for candidates looking for Jobs. I'm in the staffing industry.

Just finished interviewing a candidate who won't work because she will lose her food stamps/medicare because she might make too much money to keep them. I can't tell you how any times I've heard that. See, food stamps are a government program, but it keeps people from wanting to work.

Can you really truthfully name a program run by the government that works, except maybe the Military, even they have massive inefficiencies and red tape. Think hard....The schools? Boy, that's a federal program we can all get behind. The TSA...I've never read about people being able to sneak weapons on planes because there so good at what they do have you?. Medicare/Medicad I've never heard about people waiting on care, Medicare paying 10 times what they should when audited. The VA hospitals, I've never read about leaking roofs, rats in rooms, bad care, that's another wonderfully run government healthcare system.

You can't name one because there aren't. Never were...Never will be. It's the nature of the beast.

As for the insurance companies, they are not perfect either and I agree with the fact that the system is broken, but turning to the government isn't the answer. You said you don't have the time to follow up on a denial? Your loss at that point. Wish I had enough money to just not a fight a claim that was denied. So, I guess you've got no problem being taxed at a 50% rate then. More power to you then. I personally can't afford that.

I don't know what the answer is, wish I did.

 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
2
0
Originally posted by: jmanny
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
HOLY TALK RADIO PROPAGANDA BATMAN!!

I don't really understand how what you described is worse than an insurance company. I've never been to their offices, so I don't know if their employees are "uninterested", but I have a hard time believing they care about me more than profits. The one time I HAVE used my insurance, they turned it down for no apparent reason, and I don't have the time or desire to deal with it so I let it go. Again, I never saw any of those people, so it makes no difference to me whether they are interested or not.

I don't understand this BS about Congress "not getting things done"... Sounds like the standard Republican doublespeak for "they didn't pass my bill". Do you understand that this is a democracy and they are elected representatives? They aren't a task force created to get things done. They vote on bills. Did Bush not get the child healthcare bill done by vetoing it? What a slacker!!
Whatever...I'm too busy working to listen to Right Wing Radio as you think. As a matter of fact I'm between interviews for candidates looking for Jobs. I'm in the staffing industry.

Just finished interviewing a candidate who won't work because she will lose her food stamps/medicare because she might make too much money to keep them. I can't tell you how any times I've heard that. See, food stamps are a government program, but it keeps people from wanting to work.

Can you really truthfully name a program run by the government that works, except maybe the Military, even they have massive inefficiencies and red tape. Think hard....The schools? Boy, that's a federal program we can all get behind. The TSA...I've never read about people being able to sneak weapons on planes because there so good at what they do have you?. Medicare/Medicad I've never heard about people waiting on care, Medicare paying 10 times what they should when audited. The VA hospitals, I've never read about leaking roofs, rats in rooms, bad care, that's another wonderfully run government healthcare system.

You can't name one because there aren't. Never were...Never will be. It's the nature of the beast.

As for the insurance companies, they are not perfect either and I agree with the fact that the system is broken, but turning to the government isn't the answer. You said you don't have the time to follow up on a denial? Your loss at that point. Wish I had enough money to just not a fight a claim that was denied. So, I guess you've got no problem being taxed at a 50% rate then. More power to you then. I personally can't afford that.

I don't know what the answer is, wish I did.
NASA
NPS
NOAA
CDC
USAID
DOA
USGS
NSF
DHHS
DOT

Do you use the internet? Thank the government for pioneering it. Do you use GPS? Thank the government. Satellite imagery? Thank the government. Nautical charts? Fluvial data? Oil? Coal? Wood? Interstates?

UHC != government hospitals. Read the France article. http://www.boston.com/news/glo...del_healthcare_system/
They pay less per capita for healthcare, because a lot less goes to insurance cos as profits. That's efficiency.

Getting the claim filled would have saved me $25, so that's why it wasn't worth the effort.

Your client wouldn't be concerned about going from having Medicare to NO care by getting work, if we had UHC. There would be no such thing as anti-capitalist job locking with UHC either. Every other developed country as turned to their government for healthcare, while we turn to employers and a corrupt private insurance system. Their healthcare is rated better than ours, and they ALL spend less.
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
Know one thing. Michael Moore does NOT make unbiased documentaries. He makes feature film length propaganda reels that extol the virtues of his own personal agenda. DO NOT go into a Michael Moore movie expecting fair and balanced observation of all sides of the topic which happens to be the subject of his film. That's not to say that his films don't make some good and valid points. But he doesn't weigh his points against counterpoints. His movies are skewed without a doubt. But I'm not really sure he tries to claim that they aren't either.
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81

*snip*

Can you really truthfully name a program run by the government that works, except maybe the Military, even they have massive inefficiencies and red tape. Think hard....The schools? Boy, that's a federal program we can all get behind. The TSA...I've never read about people being able to sneak weapons on planes because there so good at what they do have you?. Medicare/Medicad I've never heard about people waiting on care, Medicare paying 10 times what they should when audited. The VA hospitals, I've never read about leaking roofs, rats in rooms, bad care, that's another wonderfully run government healthcare system.

You can't name one because there aren't. Never were...Never will be. It's the nature of the beast.

*snip*



Hmmm... Fire, Police, the road system, NASA... None of them are tip top, but they are extremely effective.

People only believe that the gov't doesn't work because it's been said so much by people who want to try to regulate/privatize human needs. The only function gov't should play is making sure that all US citizens are ABLE to pay a fair tax, and taking care of those who can't.

Are the poor, sick, and retired any less citizens? Since we are well on our way for becoming corporate fascistic, we might as well execute those people. They are worthless to our society. If it means a 5% stock bump, the CEOs will happily give their lobbyists those orders.

Unregulated capitalism and pure communism will never work. Human greed and human laziness will always corrupt those systems. Government should be there to give citizen's it's necessities, and the free market should rule for goods and services. That's the balance we need.

We're going to fail as a country if will allow energy and health care to continue to be controlled by profits.
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
Originally posted by: DefDC

*snip*

Can you really truthfully name a program run by the government that works, except maybe the Military, even they have massive inefficiencies and red tape. Think hard....The schools? Boy, that's a federal program we can all get behind. The TSA...I've never read about people being able to sneak weapons on planes because there so good at what they do have you?. Medicare/Medicad I've never heard about people waiting on care, Medicare paying 10 times what they should when audited. The VA hospitals, I've never read about leaking roofs, rats in rooms, bad care, that's another wonderfully run government healthcare system.

You can't name one because there aren't. Never were...Never will be. It's the nature of the beast.

*snip*



Hmmm... Fire, Police, the road system, NASA... None of them are tip top, but they are extremely effective.

People only believe that the gov't doesn't work because it's been said so much by people who want to try to regulate/privatize human needs. The only function gov't should play is making sure that all US citizens are ABLE to pay a fair tax, and taking care of those who can't.

Are the poor, sick, and retired any less citizens? Since we are well on our way for becoming corporate fascistic, we might as well execute those people. They are worthless to our society. If it means a 5% stock bump, the CEOs will happily give their lobbyists those orders.

Unregulated capitalism and pure communism will never work. Human greed and human laziness will always corrupt those systems. Government should be there to give citizen's it's necessities, and the free market should rule for goods and services. That's the balance we need.

We're going to fail as a country if will allow energy and health care to continue to be controlled by profits.


FWIW, my wife if is a social worker. She does vocational rehab. The purpose of her job is to help people who can no longer work in their field retrain and find another job. It seems to work great. The people get free resources from the gov't to help them work in the private center.

Some people will say that it's a gov't handout. If we did away with her job, these people would most likely remain unemployed, get sicker, and be a dreg on society. Is any private company going to give away anything for no profit? This is a gov't job that WORKS.
 

tfcmasta97

Platinum Member
Feb 7, 2004
2,003
0
0
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
Hahaha

They have these suckers whipped so badly the bitches actually believe em.

Why bother running a country well when you have retards ready to hop your wagon
 

jmanny

Member
Apr 12, 2007
116
0
76
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: jmanny
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: jmanny
Did you ever spend a day at the DMV, Social Security Office or any other State/Federal Government office?

Picture that.....totally uninterested employees, rude, they couldn't care if you came in holding your severed foot in your hand.....you have to take a number and wait. The system might start out effecient, but the bureaucracy and inefficiences of governemnt will rear it's ugly head until it turns into something that nobody expected when it started. Then the conventional wisdom of throwing more money at a problem will start until we are taxed at a rate that nobody expected to pay for system.

People will argue that this wouldn't happen, but it is the reality of bureaucracy. No one can make decisions, for that fact nobody even wants to make one for fear of losing the cushy government job they have. Just look at our Congress right now....nothing gets done, all that ever happens is the left argues with the right and neither party gives a crap about the people that voted for them until election time rolls around, then things start to happen.

Just my opinion, but I am happy with the system the way it is now. Being able to visit a doctor of my choice when I need to and where I need to. I don't need the government to tell me when, where and who I can see as a doctor. Then tax me to death for that privilige.
HOLY TALK RADIO PROPAGANDA BATMAN!!

I don't really understand how what you described is worse than an insurance company. I've never been to their offices, so I don't know if their employees are "uninterested", but I have a hard time believing they care about me more than profits. The one time I HAVE used my insurance, they turned it down for no apparent reason, and I don't have the time or desire to deal with it so I let it go. Again, I never saw any of those people, so it makes no difference to me whether they are interested or not.

I don't understand this BS about Congress "not getting things done"... Sounds like the standard Republican doublespeak for "they didn't pass my bill". Do you understand that this is a democracy and they are elected representatives? They aren't a task force created to get things done. They vote on bills. Did Bush not get the child healthcare bill done by vetoing it? What a slacker!!
Whatever...I'm too busy working to listen to Right Wing Radio as you think. As a matter of fact I'm between interviews for candidates looking for Jobs. I'm in the staffing industry.

Just finished interviewing a candidate who won't work because she will lose her food stamps/medicare because she might make too much money to keep them. I can't tell you how any times I've heard that. See, food stamps are a government program, but it keeps people from wanting to work.

Can you really truthfully name a program run by the government that works, except maybe the Military, even they have massive inefficiencies and red tape. Think hard....The schools? Boy, that's a federal program we can all get behind. The TSA...I've never read about people being able to sneak weapons on planes because there so good at what they do have you?. Medicare/Medicad I've never heard about people waiting on care, Medicare paying 10 times what they should when audited. The VA hospitals, I've never read about leaking roofs, rats in rooms, bad care, that's another wonderfully run government healthcare system.

You can't name one because there aren't. Never were...Never will be. It's the nature of the beast.

As for the insurance companies, they are not perfect either and I agree with the fact that the system is broken, but turning to the government isn't the answer. You said you don't have the time to follow up on a denial? Your loss at that point. Wish I had enough money to just not a fight a claim that was denied. So, I guess you've got no problem being taxed at a 50% rate then. More power to you then. I personally can't afford that.

I don't know what the answer is, wish I did.
NASA
NPS
NOAA
CDC
USAID
DOA
USGS
NSF
DHHS
DOT

Do you use the internet? Thank the government for pioneering it. Do you use GPS? Thank the government. Satellite imagery? Thank the government. Nautical charts? Fluvial data? Oil? Coal? Wood? Interstates?

UHC != government hospitals. Read the France article. http://www.boston.com/news/glo...del_healthcare_system/
They pay less per capita for healthcare, because a lot less goes to insurance cos as profits. That's efficiency.

Getting the claim filled would have saved me $25, so that's why it wasn't worth the effort.

Your client wouldn't be concerned about going from having Medicare to NO care by getting work, if we had UHC. There would be no such thing as anti-capitalist job locking with UHC either. Every other developed country as turned to their government for healthcare, while we turn to employers and a corrupt private insurance system. Their healthcare is rated better than ours, and they ALL spend less.
Touche...you took my dare and owned me, they are all good programs and started out well until they had to fight for funding and the beauracratic BS set in.

But I'll pose this question:

Are they efficient? No cost overuns, no signs of waste or mismanagement? None of those agencies ever fights at the government trough for their very survival? NASA has never launched a mission because cancelling it would cost too much money, how did that work out for them? Yes, I do thank the government for the internet, but now I have to be aware of whether they will tax it...regulate it...censor it. Don't know where you're from, but the DOT around me is not very good or efficient, I run over potholes and get stuck in traffic on the poorly designed roads in this area almost daily.

I haven't read the UHC article about France yet, I will when I have the time maybe it will change my mind. But I see all around me how OUR government could F@#k up just about anything it touches. I don't feel it will be any different with healthcare. All the wishifull thinking that "things will be different if we have UHC" is just that, wishful thinking.

As for the person refusing work to keep the benefits. I do work for a staffing agency that offers employees health insurance for a nominal cost. It is not as comprehensive as other programs, but it is health insurance and it is available, some people CHOOSE to stay on social services programs.

We are certainly not going to solve it in this thread, as I said before I wish I had the answer.
Hey this is getting to be a P&N thread now. :D
 

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