I returned a broken 8800GTS to frys and they put it back on the shelf

[ja1484]

A poor quality 500W PSU could definitely sink well below needed levels of efficiency, especially in a hot case, especially after an extended period under load.

And yes, 3.5" desktop HDDs use the 12v rail - possibly a different 12v rail in your case OP, but they are on the 12v, if there was any confusion there. Anything with a motor - fans, HDDs, ODDs, and of course now GPUs - are all suckling at the 12v teat (although many fans may be spec'd for the 5v rail instead).

 

[LeftSide]

Give the guy a break. I worked in returns at microcenter for 2 years. These guys are the least paid in the entire store, put up with the most crap, and have to know more about the products than anyone else (whats in the box, what the manufactures rma policy is, software returns, matching serial numbers, etc.). It doesn't matter if your a tech for nvidia, it hard to trust what anyone says when you get lied to all day...

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees
Time to hand in your Golden Member card.

Originally posted by: mruffin75
I still think it sounds like the power supply giving out..but I guess we'll never be able to tell as he's already returned the card and didn't test it in another PC..

And another zero star topic by Taltamir? Damn!

:laugh:

Originally posted by: LeftSide
Give the guy a break.

no he needs to give us a break from him.

 

[angry hampster]

OP: you never actually said what kind of temps you were getting. The GTS should run fine up to 90-100*C.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: taltamir
ah yes.. but in my case it worked PERFECTLY for over an hour... then it didn't work properly. crashing as windows loading and artifacting heavily during post... Very different then previous experiences I had with lack of power to video card.

Anyways I thought he said his PSU DIED as in... failed and never came back on... so I Was saying if you exceed a psu power it should cause things to crash or fail, but not PERMANENTLY so... just until you remove some hardware so the PSU can breath, or replace the psu to one that provides enough power.

I thought you said it didn't perform all that much better than your 7900GS...? I have both of those cards as well (7900GS just so happens to be my backup card), and I can assure that a perfectly running 8800GTS 512MB provides a noticeable (and HUGE) upgrade from a 7900GS.

You are right though, his PSU did die... If he buys another one and overloads it, it will probably die too.

 

[Syntax Error]

I run an 8800GT on a 550W Antec PowerTrio (forgot the amperage on the 12+V rail) with five hard drives running on constantly; I don't have any stability issues from my PSU as a result.

 

[mruffin75]

you must be running those 5v hard drives

And he bought the 8800GTS..which uses a little bit more power than the GT...

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: mruffin75
you must be running those 5v hard drives

And he bought the 8800GTS..which uses a little bit more power than the GT...

Not enough that it should make a difference...if you have enough cushion for one, you have enough cushion for the other.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
I thought you said it didn't perform all that much better than your 7900GS...? I have both of those cards as well (7900GS just so happens to be my backup card), and I can assure that a perfectly running 8800GTS 512MB provides a noticeable (and HUGE) upgrade from a 7900GS.

I can't quite tell a performance difference either. Starcraft looks the same on both cards.

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: mruffin75
you must be running those 5v hard drives

And he bought the 8800GTS..which uses a little bit more power than the GT...

Not enough that it should make a difference...if you have enough cushion for one, you have enough cushion for the other.

Well for a start...there's a fairly good difference between the 8800GT and the 8800GTS..

Also the original post said a 500W PSU... the previous post said 550W..

Enough difference for me..

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: nitromullet
I thought you said it didn't perform all that much better than your 7900GS...? I have both of those cards as well (7900GS just so happens to be my backup card), and I can assure that a perfectly running 8800GTS 512MB provides a noticeable (and HUGE) upgrade from a 7900GS.

I can't quite tell a performance difference either. Starcraft looks the same on both cards.

I'm not sure if you're joking here or not... StarCraft came out in 1998, and it's not stressing either card. Try something like Oblivion on both cards and see how you feel about it then.

 

[taltamir]

My PSU:
http://www.nmediapc.com/mp400_500a.htm
Reviews:
http://www.thinkcomputers.org/...x.php?x=reviews&id=461
http://www.modthebox.com/review496_2.shtml

Its a gem in the rough. I first found it because it was the highest rated among customer's on newegg... I looked it up and it sounded good so I gave it a try.
Its the best individual model I have ever worked with, I built 5 computers with this one already (1 for me, 4 for family & friends). It is inexpensive, got plenty of juice, and rock solid.

I have had plenty of antec's and enermax's and the like die on me. I have never had any problems with one of those.

Also, if the power supply is fried how come I am using it RIGHT NOW with 0 issues using this video card:
http://www.evga.com/products/m....asp?pn=256-P2-N624-AR

Minimum of a 400 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 20 Amp Amps.)
Minimum 500 Watt for SLI mode system.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 28 Amp Amps.)

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi
You did remove the thin film from the stock cooler before using the card right?

No i didn't, I only noticed there was such a thing when I Was packing it up to return it.
But I doubt that was the issue considering the film was on the plastic. there is a heatsink with a plastic cover and a fan blowing air across the heatsink and out of the case. The film was not obstructing the fan, and the plastic itself was not releasing any heat (it was cool ot he touch, the OTHER side of the card, the exposed one, was burning hot to the touch.)

I have these hard drives:
http://www.westerndigital.com/...oducts.asp?DriveID=311
2 of the 750GB models and 2 of the 500GB models...

All connected to a SATA power cable coming out of the PSU (SATA power cable provide 3.3, 5, and 12 volt to the drive for it to use whichever it wants!)

They are set up into two raid1 arrays (software based, with the nforce570 mobo)
Their idle consumption is 0.45 amp from the v12 and their active consumption (read/write) is 0.46 amps.
So assuming all 4 drives are writing at once, and that the 500GB drives take the same amount of power as the 750GB model... I Would be looking at absolute max 1.84 amps from v12.
The raid1 array made up of two 750GB drives is the one where my games are running from (also where I keep my CD images. I don't use a CD drive for games...)

I also have one raptor plugged through a molex (molex only provides v5 and v12, no v3.3).
This one has a much lower idle, but slightly heftier actuve power draw, with 0.375amps idle and 0.47amps during usage.
This drive is where I keep my OS and programs. It gives me fast boot times without the need to deal with RAID drivers during windows installation (i just install it with just that drive, install the drivers, and then plug in the other drives)

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: taltamir
Also, if the power supply is fried how come I am using it RIGHT NOW with 0 issues using this video card:
http://www.evga.com/products/m....asp?pn=256-P2-N624-AR

I don't think anyone was saying your PSU was completely dead...just that it's maybe unstable when under high load.. (and even then we're just guessing!)..

But also... take my previous post link:

http://www.techspot.com/review...00-gts-512/page11.html

And this one:

http://techreport.com/articles.x/10715/9

Different systems, so there will be some differences in power consumption, but the numbers are:

8800GTS - Idle:180W Load:291W
7900GS - Idle:144W Load:190W

So from that, you see that the 8800GTS sucks up 111W more juice under load than it does when it's idle. The 7900GS on the other hand sucks up a mere 46W more.

As I said before, these are two completely different systems so the numbers won't be accurate, *however* a 111W difference compared to a 46W difference is huge!

Your 7900GS is only sucking around 10W more at load than the 8800GTS at idle!

That's why we think it was possibly your PSU...

 

[HOOfan 1]

OK first you said your PSU is rated at 33Amps on the 12V rail...you apparently figured this by adidng the 12V1 at 15A to the 12V2 rail at 18A...that doesn't work. 15A and 18A are what the rails are limited to, that doesn't necessarily mean that those rails can put out that current at the same time. SKYMTL did a review on this power supply and said it looks more like the combined 12V rail is about 26-27 Amps. He ends up saying that PSU is should have been rated at 450 watts not 500 watts.

Edit: SKYMTL's review on Hardware Canucks

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: taltamir
My PSU:
http://www.nmediapc.com/mp400_500a.htm
Reviews:
http://www.thinkcomputers.org/...x.php?x=reviews&id=461
http://www.modthebox.com/review496_2.shtml

Its a gem in the rough. I first found it because it was the highest rated among customer's on newegg... I looked it up and it sounded good so I gave it a try.
Its the best individual model I have ever worked with, I built 5 computers with this one already (1 for me, 4 for family & friends). It is inexpensive, got plenty of juice, and rock solid.

I have had plenty of antec's and enermax's and the like die on me. I have never had any problems with one of those.

Also, if the power supply is fried how come I am using it RIGHT NOW with 0 issues using this video card:
http://www.evga.com/products/m....asp?pn=256-P2-N624-AR

Minimum of a 400 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 20 Amp Amps.)
Minimum 500 Watt for SLI mode system.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 28 Amp Amps.)

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi
You did remove the thin film from the stock cooler before using the card right?

No i didn't, I only noticed there was such a thing when I Was packing it up to return it.
But I doubt that was the issue considering the film was on the plastic. there is a heatsink with a plastic cover and a fan blowing air across the heatsink and out of the case. The film was not obstructing the fan, and the plastic itself was not releasing any heat (it was cool ot he touch, the OTHER side of the card, the exposed one, was burning hot to the touch.)

A gem in the rough? Its a 50-dollar 500W power supply, wise guy.

How come a 500w enermax, or zippy, or etasis psu costs 100+?
How come a 500W PC P&C turbo cool costs even more than that?

you really think you can get bargains with power supplies? all you are getting is garbage.


edit

nice catch HOOfan 1, I overlooked that. Looks like I won my bet.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: HOOfan 1
OK first you said your PSU is rated at 33Amps on the 12V rail...you apparently figured this by adidng the 12V1 at 15A to the 12V2 rail at 18A...that doesn't work. 15A and 18A are what the rails are limited to, that doesn't necessarily mean that those rails can put out that current at the same time. SKYMTL did a review on this power supply and said it looks more like the combined 12V rail is about 26-27 Amps. He ends up saying that PSU is should have been rated at 450 watts not 500 watts.

Edit: SKYMTL's review on Hardware Canucks

From SKYMTL:

nMedia MP-500: The nMedia MP-500 somewhat surprised me with its performance. It had great efficiency, good voltage regulation and quite silent operation. I?ll freely admit to being shocked at the scores coming from a $60 power supply. Yet with praise also comes some critique for this power supply; at higher output, it displays quite a bit of ripple which is indicative of a power supply being pushed too far. In addition, it was the only power supply in this roundup to completely crash the system when trying to run the SLI test. I know that you can?t expect everything from a $60 power supply but it IS labeled as a 500W unit and we have seen what a real 500W power supply can do in this roundup. Other than that it does bug me a bit that there is only one PCI-E connector. All in all, I like this power supply as a good 450W unit but not as a full-fledged 500W power supply. I am really excited to see what nMedia has coming up down the road.

Ok so he rates it as a very good 450 watter... Can't do SLI... but I Wasn't doing SLI, was I?
For one card requiring a 400 watt power supply a 500 watt power supply which is reviewed as "a very good 450watter but not so good 500watts" is plenty.


@mruffin75: thats at stock... My GS is with a hefty factory OC. It takes more power.
Also you took the power figures from two different reviews.. you ARE aware that they are talking TOTAL system power using different cards on the same system? If you compare the results from two different reviews then you are having a completely different testbed system.
Oh and one last thing... they are TESTING IT WITH CRYSIS... crysis maxes out most CPUs... At desktop maxing out my CPU makes my total system power go from 152 to 205 watts. Thats with the graphics idling on both. I only increased CPU usage on my X2 system... When they test it with crysis they increase total system power draw both due to the card, AND due to the CPU utilization.

 

[HOOfan 1]

I wasn't saying your PSU wasn't enough, merely saying that your assumption that it was capable of 33Amps on the 12V rail was incorrect.

 

[taltamir]

EDIT: Notice how I bolded some text at the bottom... I haven't changed the post aside from this bolding... the following "cable can draw from only one rail? so my PSU is comparable" is a theoretical discussion based on the idea that people said where the fact my v12 rail is only 18/16amps... So I am explaining via example that if this is the case, then my PSU is still godd enough. But it doesn't make sense for a cable to be unable to draw power from two rails... (end of edit)

Originally posted by: HOOfan 1
I wasn't saying your PSU wasn't enough, merely saying that your assumption that it was capable of 33Amps on the 12V rail was incorrect.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151036
Check out this 650watt seasonic PSU.
It has 4 v12 rails... 3 of them at 19 amps. and a fourth with 0.8 (dont ask me what it is for)

My PSU has two v12 rails. One at 16 amps (to which the hard drives connect)... and one at 18amps to which the video card is connected.

If I wanted to connect TWO video cards to my PSU I would have to have one get 18 amps to itself, and one share 16amps with the rest of the system (using molex to PCIe power convertor)... BAD IDEA. My PSU can NOT support two video cards.

However if you had that 650 watt 120$ seasonic PSU you would get the ability to plug two video cards each to their own 19 amps rail, and the rest of the system would run in the third 19 amp rail.

So that PSU gives 1 extra amp. 19 instead of 18, to the video card... (unless I am completely wrong about how my PSU is structured and its 16amps dedicated to video card and 18 amps to the rest of the system... but that wouldn't make sense).

This 700watt 130$ PSU from OCZ:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817341002

Has 4 v12 rails with 18 amps each...
So it can have 1 rail support the system... and 3 rails each for a video card giving a dedicated 18amps per video card. SAME amount per video card as my PSU... except MY psu is limited to ONE video card. This PSU can feed 3 video cards.



So assuming there is no way to use multiple rails in parrallel (ie, that a video card cannot draw power from both rail 1 and rail 2... which doesnt make sense according to my knowledge of electricity). then my PSU gives the same treatment per video card as those PSU's... except mine is limited to one video card...

Ofcourse, that wouldn't explain why that 4 rail v12 PSU has only TWO PCIe power plugs... that means it can only get two video cards plugged in, does that mean that the other two 18amp rails are split between the various connectors going to the rest of the system? with each hard drive taking less then 0.5 amps at full power that second 18amp rail going to the system could power an additional 40 harddrives!

 

[HOOfan 1]

you aren't understanding how it actually works.

The reason that PSUs are split into multiple 12V rails is a safety issue. Most multi-rail PSUs actually have a single rail that is split up. The ratings that are given on the side of the badge of the PSUs does not mean that you can add the ratings together to get the combined power...they are merely indicating that that is what those rails are limited to.

To use that OCZ PSU that you linked as an example, it has 4 rails rated at 18 amps each...if you add that together that equals 72 amps. using basic electrical knowledge current in amperage * potential in volts = Power in watts
so 72 amps * 12 Volts = 864 watts...but the PSU is only rated at 700 watts. Thus you see you cannot add the rails together to get the combined voltages.

EDIT: if you whip out your magnifying glass you will see it actually says

Maximum combined current for the 12V outputs shall be 50A

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: HOOfan 1
I wasn't saying your PSU wasn't enough, merely saying that your assumption that it was capable of 33Amps on the 12V rail was incorrect.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151036
Check out this 650watt seasonic PSU.
It has 4 v12 rails... 3 of them at 19 amps. and a fourth with 0.8 (dont ask me what it is for)

My PSU has two v12 rails. One at 16 amps (to which the hard drives connect)... and one at 18amps to which the video card is connected.

If I wanted to connect TWO video cards to my PSU I would have to have one get 18 amps to itself, and one share 16amps with the rest of the system (using molex to PCIe power convertor)... BAD IDEA. My PSU can NOT support two video cards.

However if you had that 650 watt 120$ seasonic PSU you would get the ability to plug two video cards each to their own 19 amps rail, and the rest of the system would run in the third 19 amp rail.

So that PSU gives 1 extra amp. 19 instead of 18, to the video card... (unless I am completely wrong about how my PSU is structured and its 16amps dedicated to video card and 18 amps to the rest of the system... but that wouldn't make sense).

This 700watt 130$ PSU from OCZ:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817341002

Has 4 v12 rails with 18 amps each...
So it can have 1 rail support the system... and 3 rails each for a video card giving a dedicated 18amps per video card. SAME amount per video card as my PSU... except MY psu is limited to ONE video card. This PSU can feed 3 video cards.



So assuming there is no way to use multiple rails in parrallel (ie, that a video card cannot draw power from both rail 1 and rail 2... which doesnt make sense according to my knowledge of electricity). then my PSU gives the same treatment per video card as those PSU's... except mine is limited to one video card...

Ofcourse, that wouldn't explain why that 4 rail v12 PSU has only TWO PCIe power plugs... that means it can only get two video cards plugged in, does that mean that the other two 18amp rails are split between the various connectors going to the rest of the system? with each hard drive taking less then 0.5 amps at full power that second 18amp rail going to the system could power an additional 40 harddrives!

god, you are so clueless.

things are split into rails because its cheaper and more safe. its cheaper to use 4 20A rails than 1 80A rail, and its also easier to keep them cool. a rail is nothing more than an AC to DC converter.

just like i thought, you think that each wire corresponds to one converter. and thats why you are a dumbass, and should refrain from making threads. the wires are connected inside so that the load is balanced between the converters, so some wires will draw power from rail 1 and 2, some will draw from 2 and 3, and some will draw from 3 and 4. in your case, your video card was most likely drawing power from the same rail as your hard drives were drawing power from, and thats why that converter, or "rail" gave up.

the power supply does not have a sensor that detects which rail is being loaded, and automatically draws from the other rail, its just a matter of how things are wired inside of the psu, which is why people tend to prefer one single huge rail as opposed to multiple smaller rails, but that always turns out to be more expensive (duh). so if you are going to use a multi-rail power supply, at least buy one that is 20% over dimensioned, in your case, a 620-650w would have been ideal.

EDIT: in the OCZ psu you linked, they are kind enough to tell you which rail does what, and you can see that only 2 rails are dedicated to PCI-e, and those are rail 2 and rail 4. so in fact the OCZ psu only provides 36A of VGA 12V power. rail 3 is the molex branch, and rail 1 is the CPU 8-pin. do you have your power supply's break down of the rails? no, I thought so.

JAG, can you possibly refrain from personal insults in your posts. No reason for it. If you can't do it, just don't post anymore. If you have certain knowledge over somebody else, that's fine, show them the knowledge. Whether they accept it or not, is not your problem and you should move on.

Anandtech Moderator - Keysplayr

 

[taltamir]

JAG stop being a jerk and try to carefully READ what I said.. I said IF that is what happens, "which makes no sense considering what I know about electricity". BUT IF as argued the fact that its split is no good, then the only thing I could think of is that either each wire is a rail, or each wire shares a single rail with other wires. Which again, I Said makes no sense, but if that was the case that those super high end PSUs give the same amount of power per video card.

But thats not really the case now is it?

 

[SolMiester]

Jeez Jag, ya being a bit heavy there mate, the guys only a young bloke, dont give him a complex man!.

 

[SolMiester]

Oh and Taltamir, you have been officially busted for slagging off Frys when in fact the issue was probably your own ignorance. Time to admitt your error before the rest of AF slap you...LMAO

 

[taltamir]

jag has a grudge against me because I usually tell him to stop being so mean to other people when argues with them... AND usually go and provide evidence that they were right to begin with, so his insults towards them were not just inappropriate, but also unfounded as it is him who is wrong... I started ignoring him to avoid flame wars but since others also say similar things in this thread I am countering the claims he is making this time... as an exception.

SolMiester... even if lack of power CAUSED the video card to break, it was still broken in the end... You claim that my PSU broke in a way that it still works perfectly at "lower" power draws (such as the max power draw of a 7900GS overclocked), but is no longer able to provide the "high" power demands of a 8800GTS when IDLING, where before it was able to provide it with load power for more then a hour in a row... And that is after leaving the computer off for the night?

Ok fine. I am gonna settle it once and for all. I am driving to frys right now to... ok its sunday 7pm. I am going to frys tommorow morning, and getting another GTS and we will see if THAT one is artifacting at idle on my now "broken PSU"... my guess is that I would be able to run it on load with no problems.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: JAG87
A gem in the rough? Its a 50-dollar 500W power supply, wise guy.

How come a 500w enermax, or zippy, or etasis psu costs 100+?
How come a 500W PC P&C turbo cool costs even more than that?

you really think you can get bargains with power supplies? all you are getting is garbage.


edit

nice catch HOOfan 1, I overlooked that. Looks like I won my bet.

No, you're completely wrong... People like you and I are morons for spending extra money on a PSU... All you need to do is stumble upon a gem in the rough.