I returned a broken 8800GTS to frys and they put it back on the shelf

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
I went and bought an eVGA 8800GTS v3 512MB at frys... ~350$ + tax = 389$.
I put it in, that was a pain since the card was HUGE and I had to shove one of my 5 hard drives in the floppy bay to make it fit.

Well, I started playing, it was a little better then my 7900GS but not too impressively so. I noticed it is running HOT, very hot, but rivatuner couldnt change its fan speed settings (or any low level settings on it).

It crashed after about an hour of playing the witcher. After letting it cool down I Was able to post again, but I Was getting horrible artifacts (wavy white lines across the entire screen 1 inch apart) even in bios.

So I went to frys to return it. I told the guy it is defective and exactly what happened. He put down "unwanted" as reason of return and printed a price sticker and put it on it. I told him "you are just going to put it back on the shelf? it's broken!" He stuttered a bit, said they will test it, and made a sticky note that said "test" on the card.

He then stared at me and asked "say, what kind of power supply do you have"
"500 watts"
"Are you sure its enough?"
"It is more then enough, besides watts dont mean anything, my PSU is rated for 33 amps on the 12 volt rail and this card only needs 24"
"But the 8800 series require a lot of power"
"Yes but this is a G92 based part, it requires very little power in comparison".
"But, didn't you say you had to move a hard drive, how many do you have?"
"Five, but again, they use a different rail then the video card"
... he gave me another funny look, and then he went and changed the sticky note from "test" to say "test for post". (which I Said before, it posts, it just artifacts badly, and runs HOT).

I feel sorry for whatever poor sob ends up buying this as an open box, especially because he only reduced the price by 5$ (from 350$ to 345$).

Once again I am reminded why one should never, ever, buy open box hardware at frys.
 

Hauk

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2001
2,806
0
0
Retailers deal with people returning electronics and coming up with elaborate stories of it not working, when in fact they're returning it because they don't want it.

Perhaps he thought you were one of those people. I could be wrong, the guy may not give a rats ass about who gets the card next. But maybe he thought you were trying to overcome a restocking fee.

Bummer about the card though.
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
well at least he asked some questions before putting it back on shelf. since the service standard for electronics store are so low these days, I say the dude did a 'good' job :}
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
7
81
Originally posted by: angry hampster
Sounds like a typical big electronics store service tech.

The returns guys aren't techs AFAIK.

Fry's has a 14 day return period with no restocking fee.
 

JAG87

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
3,921
3
76
Originally posted by: taltamir

Well, I started playing, it was a little better then my 7900GS but not too impressively so (oook, first sign that you are wrong and the salesman is right). I noticed it is running HOT, very hot, but rivatuner couldnt change its fan speed settings (or any low level settings on it). (you are probably comparing your temps to your old 7900GS, and like any other new 8 series owner, you think its overheating)

It crashed after about an hour of playing the witcher. (your power supply gave up, not the card). After letting it cool down I Was able to post again, but I Was getting horrible artifacts (wavy white lines across the entire screen 1 inch apart) even in bios. (again you are assuming its the card, while chances are your psu saw the light)

So I went to frys to return it. I told the guy it is defective and exactly what happened. He put down "unwanted" as reason of return and printed a price sticker and put it on it. I told him "you are just going to put it back on the shelf? it's broken!" He stuttered a bit, said they will test it, and made a sticky note that said "test" on the card.

He then stared at me and asked "say, what kind of power supply do you have"
"500 watts" (that's not necessarily enough)
"Are you sure its enough?" (exactly)
"It is more then enough, besides watts dont mean anything, my PSU is rated for 33 amps on the 12 volt rail and this card only needs 24" (so why did you say 500w first if it doesn't mean anything?)
"But the 8800 series require a lot of power" (exactly)
"Yes but this is a G92 based part, it requires very little power in comparison". (not really, its just a bit more efficient than G80, it doesn't require very little power as you say)
"But, didn't you say you had to move a hard drive, how many do you have?" (he's on to you)
"Five, but again, they use a different rail then the video card" (o rly? how do you know that? don't tell me you assume that because they are plugged into a different wire and you think thats a different rail, because that would just be the cherry on the cake)
... he gave me another funny look, and then he went and changed the sticky note from "test" to say "test for post". (which I Said before, it posts, it just artifacts badly, and runs HOT).

I feel sorry for whatever poor sob ends up buying this as an open box, especially because he only reduced the price by 5$ (from 350$ to 345$).

Once again I am reminded why one should never, ever, buy open box hardware at frys.



knowing you, I have my money on the salesman. I'd love to know how it goes but we will never know what happened to that card.

edit:
I'd love to know exactly what psu you have
 

mruffin75

Senior member
May 19, 2007
343
0
0
ROFL @ JAG87...

But seriously..

I agree about the 500W remark....sounds like you've got a buttload of hard drives in your system as well which wouldn't help..
And yeah the comment about the 8800GTS sucking less power?? According to this review:

http://www.techspot.com/review...00-gts-512/page11.html

It uses about the same as a 8800GTX, and a little less than a 2900XT.. so I'd say a 500W PSU with a heap of hard drives isn't really going to cut it...
You should really be looking at around 750W or more to be safe...

Hell I bought a Cooler Master 850W PSU to power my one 2900XT :) I know...overkill...but hey..it was free :)

And the rail thing...yeah...don't say it was on a different rail because it was on a different cable... that's just laughable..
 

VigilanteCS

Senior member
Dec 19, 2004
415
0
0
I ran my 8800GTS with an Antec 550W with 30A on the +12V and it lasted about a day before it crapped out on me, couldn't keep up with the video card. I think that may have been your problem with the performance, other than that, I'm clueless about the temps. My eVGA 8800GTS G92 idles at 54*C and loads max at 75*c with the stock fan speeds, but I bumped them up so it idles at 45* and loads at 60*.
 

lilbabimac

Senior member
Aug 17, 2000
517
0
0
Originally posted by: VigilanteCS
I ran my 8800GTS with an Antec 550W with 30A on the +12V and it lasted about a day before it crapped out on me, couldn't keep up with the video card. I think that may have been your problem with the performance, other than that, I'm clueless about the temps. My eVGA 8800GTS G92 idles at 54*C and loads max at 75*c with the stock fan speeds, but I bumped them up so it idles at 45* and loads at 60*.

Are you serious? So with your current setup in your sig, you're saying your Antec 550W didn't provide enough power for your rig? I don't understand why a 550W psu wouldn't be enough...
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,571
178
106
For all you guys laughing at taltamir about the rails thing, FYI hard drives primarily run off 5V sources, not 12V, although some do. It really depends what type of drive you have in your system. Go look up the white papers for a modern hard drive before ragging on someone.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Originally posted by: JAG87
Originally posted by: taltamir

Well, I started playing, it was a little better then my 7900GS but not too impressively so (oook, first sign that you are wrong and the salesman is right). I noticed it is running HOT, very hot, but rivatuner couldnt change its fan speed settings (or any low level settings on it). (you are probably comparing your temps to your old 7900GS, and like any other new 8 series owner, you think its overheating)

It crashed after about an hour of playing the witcher. (your power supply gave up, not the card). After letting it cool down I Was able to post again, but I Was getting horrible artifacts (wavy white lines across the entire screen 1 inch apart) even in bios. (again you are assuming its the card, while chances are your psu saw the light)

So I went to frys to return it. I told the guy it is defective and exactly what happened. He put down "unwanted" as reason of return and printed a price sticker and put it on it. I told him "you are just going to put it back on the shelf? it's broken!" He stuttered a bit, said they will test it, and made a sticky note that said "test" on the card.

He then stared at me and asked "say, what kind of power supply do you have"
"500 watts" (that's not necessarily enough)
"Are you sure its enough?" (exactly)
"It is more then enough, besides watts dont mean anything, my PSU is rated for 33 amps on the 12 volt rail and this card only needs 24" (so why did you say 500w first if it doesn't mean anything?)
"But the 8800 series require a lot of power" (exactly)
"Yes but this is a G92 based part, it requires very little power in comparison". (not really, its just a bit more efficient than G80, it doesn't require very little power as you say)
"But, didn't you say you had to move a hard drive, how many do you have?" (he's on to you)
"Five, but again, they use a different rail then the video card" (o rly? how do you know that? don't tell me you assume that because they are plugged into a different wire and you think thats a different rail, because that would just be the cherry on the cake)
... he gave me another funny look, and then he went and changed the sticky note from "test" to say "test for post". (which I Said before, it posts, it just artifacts badly, and runs HOT).

I feel sorry for whatever poor sob ends up buying this as an open box, especially because he only reduced the price by 5$ (from 350$ to 345$).

Once again I am reminded why one should never, ever, buy open box hardware at frys.



knowing you, I have my money on the salesman. I'd love to know how it goes but we will never know what happened to that card.

edit:
I'd love to know exactly what psu you have

No, he's definitely right about the 12v rail and about watts not mattering. 33A is plenty for any graphics card non SLI.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: lilbabimac
Originally posted by: VigilanteCS
I ran my 8800GTS with an Antec 550W with 30A on the +12V and it lasted about a day before it crapped out on me, couldn't keep up with the video card. I think that may have been your problem with the performance, other than that, I'm clueless about the temps. My eVGA 8800GTS G92 idles at 54*C and loads max at 75*c with the stock fan speeds, but I bumped them up so it idles at 45* and loads at 60*.

Are you serious? So with your current setup in your sig, you're saying your Antec 550W didn't provide enough power for your rig? I don't understand why a 550W psu wouldn't be enough...

Not sure exactly which Antec 550 he has, but the only 550s I see on their site (TruePower and NeoPower) are all multi-12V rail PSUs. Even their top of the line Quattro series has four separate 12V rails.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Frys has a no restocking fee 30 days returns (or 15 for select items) for any reason I want. By saying its unwanted I gaurentee that I have no trouble returning it, by saying its defective I get grilled, and if I say something incriminating they can decline the return (wait you said you did WHAT, well thats what broke it... we can't take it back then). I was only telling him to spare someone from buying a defective card. I said I am guessing it probably has a problem with the mounting of the heatsink. (which is probably why it overheated).

I also said it worked for an hour at BOILING HOT TEMPS (I didn't mention temperature to him... I have 4 120mm fans in the case and everything is COOL to the touch... I didn't need crap about ventilation) and then it FRIED (I could NOT use riva tuner to up the fan speed on it for some reason)... It was scalding to the touch.... It wouldn't post at all right after it failed, I had to let it cool for a while before it posted with the artifacts. After which it will have artifacts and crash within a minute (it crashed every time I tried to load vista windows after the initial crash, but it will post). I think there was some burnt smell but it was faint.

The salesmen never asked me about comparative performance, thats just something I said HERE, he never heard of it... To clarify it was much better FPS then the old card but I expected much MORE from all the hype and considering its a 350$ part that came out in the last few weeks, compared to a card I bought for 240$ 2 years ago.

The PSU didn't crap on me because the PSU is still working fine. I just put the old 7900GS in it and I am using it right now. I have had power issues before with a video card, in fact the 7900GS overclocked card I now have had issues with too little power, that were fixed by upgrading to my current PSU. For a month and a half I had crashes (memory dump after about 1 hour of gaming), I replaced the motherboard twice, the CPU, the RAM, the video card... and FINALLY I thought about the power supply, NOT ONCE did an item actually BREAK on me... it crashed, I turned it off, turned it on, and it worked again until the next crash. The fact that it didn't work right after crashing indicates to me it wasn't the PSU

http://www.evga.com/products/m....asp?pn=512-P3-N841-AR

From evga website:
Minimum of a 400 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 26 Amp Amps.)
Minimum 450 Watt for SLI mode system.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 30 Amp Amps.)

I have a 500 watt PSU with +12 Volt currant rating of 33 Amp.
This exceedes the requirement to run two of these cards in SLI. In fact, through deduction (30amps for 2 cards, 26amps for 1) I can say the recommended amount for 3 of these cards would be 34 amps. And that an estimated 22amps (from the v12 rails...) go to power the REST of the system... So my PSU can easily support that much. (that and I am still only using half its cables)


Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: lilbabimac
Originally posted by: VigilanteCS
I ran my 8800GTS with an Antec 550W with 30A on the +12V and it lasted about a day before it crapped out on me, couldn't keep up with the video card. I think that may have been your problem with the performance, other than that, I'm clueless about the temps. My eVGA 8800GTS G92 idles at 54*C and loads max at 75*c with the stock fan speeds, but I bumped them up so it idles at 45* and loads at 60*.

Are you serious? So with your current setup in your sig, you're saying your Antec 550W didn't provide enough power for your rig? I don't understand why a 550W psu wouldn't be enough...

Not sure exactly which Antec 550 he has, but the only 550s I see on their site (TruePower and NeoPower) are all multi-12V rail PSUs. Even their top of the line Quattro series has four separate 12V rails.

Maybe his PSU was just defective, I am sure that if he replaced it with an identical PSU it would have worked FINE... also lack of power causes crashes WITHOUT damage to components (typically, it can however fry the PSU if it was bad... it shouldn't though). Overheating is like to cause permanent damage to components when it crashes though...
 

Dkcode

Senior member
May 1, 2005
995
0
0
Frys has to be the most inappropriate name for an electronics store :p

taltamir: What the sales chap did was totally unacceptable. If someone picks up the card - it will only end up being returned again so the salesman's strategy is pointless.

As for the absence of power - If the card was running so hot as you say then would it not throttle back the clocks to prevent damage to itself thus reducing the performance? I had a similar issue with a 7900GTX where i mounted a after market cooler which had not seated correctly, although the reduced performance only came in small surges.

Anyway i upgraded to an 8800GTX from a X1800XT and the leap in performance was huge, you should expect more coming from an slower card. The GT as you suggested was shagged but if you do pick up another card and it results in the same performance then wouldn't it be worth taking out all those hard drives?
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: taltamir

<snip>


Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: lilbabimac
Originally posted by: VigilanteCS
I ran my 8800GTS with an Antec 550W with 30A on the +12V and it lasted about a day before it crapped out on me, couldn't keep up with the video card. I think that may have been your problem with the performance, other than that, I'm clueless about the temps. My eVGA 8800GTS G92 idles at 54*C and loads max at 75*c with the stock fan speeds, but I bumped them up so it idles at 45* and loads at 60*.

Are you serious? So with your current setup in your sig, you're saying your Antec 550W didn't provide enough power for your rig? I don't understand why a 550W psu wouldn't be enough...

Not sure exactly which Antec 550 he has, but the only 550s I see on their site (TruePower and NeoPower) are all multi-12V rail PSUs. Even their top of the line Quattro series has four separate 12V rails.

Maybe his PSU was just defective, I am sure that if he replaced it with an identical PSU it would have worked FINE... also lack of power causes crashes WITHOUT damage to components (typically, it can however fry the PSU if it was bad... it shouldn't though). Overheating is like to cause permanent damage to components when it crashes though...

Actually, a PSU can cause a video card to behave like it's damaged (artifacts, etc...), even with it is not really damaged. Also, If a quad 12V PSU doesn't have enough power on the rail feeding the video card, replacing it with the same kind of PSU won't fix that issue. I'm not saying that was the issue with his Antec, btw... Just that it's a possibility.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
ah yes.. but in my case it worked PERFECTLY for over an hour... then it didn't work properly. crashing as windows loading and artifacting heavily during post... Very different then previous experiences I had with lack of power to video card.

Anyways I thought he said his PSU DIED as in... failed and never came back on... so I Was saying if you exceed a psu power it should cause things to crash or fail, but not PERMANENTLY so... just until you remove some hardware so the PSU can breath, or replace the psu to one that provides enough power.
 

mruffin75

Senior member
May 19, 2007
343
0
0
Originally posted by: Avalon
For all you guys laughing at taltamir about the rails thing, FYI hard drives primarily run off 5V sources, not 12V, although some do. It really depends what type of drive you have in your system. Go look up the white papers for a modern hard drive before ragging on someone.

The Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 series (high-end) mentions nothing about 5v, but does mention 12v:
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pd..._barracuda_7200_11.pdf

The Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 series (low end) mentions nothing about 5v, but does mention 12v:
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pd...s_barracuda_7200_9.pdf

So which drives do actually use 5v?? I'm thinking you mean laptop drives maybe... in which case we're not even talking about laptops..we're talking desktop drives..

and "some do"? Which one's don't? I just picked two at random and was able to find 12v drives... maybe it's more like "most use 12v, but *some* use 5v" ?
 

vhx

Golden Member
Jul 19, 2006
1,151
0
0
Heh, no wonder why EVGA makes people register their cards soon after purchase. People are liable to get a returned/defective card that they thought was new? That sucks.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Originally posted by: taltamir
ah yes.. but in my case it worked PERFECTLY for over an hour... then it didn't work properly. crashing as windows loading and artifacting heavily during post... Very different then previous experiences I had with lack of power to video card.

Anyways I thought he said his PSU DIED as in... failed and never came back on... so I Was saying if you exceed a psu power it should cause things to crash or fail, but not PERMANENTLY so... just until you remove some hardware so the PSU can breath, or replace the psu to one that provides enough power.

Actually, that is exactly the way a hard pushed PSU behaves. It degrades if pushed to near it's limits. Something that worked an hour ago, may not work now.

I mean, you mentioned you have 5 hard drives, and 4 120mm cooling fans. Your rig draws more than the "average" amount of juice, trust me. The 8800GTS probably just put the PSU to close, or just over it's limits. It graced you with an hours worth of good play, but then said, "Ok, I've had enough." This is most likely what has happened to you. That 8800GTS you returned will probably test out fine and be resold to somebody else with a less power hungry rig, or a more than adequate PSU.

OR, it will be returned again by someone who doesn't have enough power to run it.
And the vicious cycle continues.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Originally posted by: Avalon
For all you guys laughing at taltamir about the rails thing, FYI hard drives primarily run off 5V sources, not 12V, although some do. It really depends what type of drive you have in your system. Go look up the white papers for a modern hard drive before ragging on someone.

Avalon, lappy 2.5" HDD's run on 5V. Desktop drives run on 12V.

To test for yourself, try removing the yellow wire from the molex connector powering your hard drive. See what happens. Yellow wire is 12V. Red wire is 5V.
 

mruffin75

Senior member
May 19, 2007
343
0
0
I still think it sounds like the power supply giving out..but I guess we'll never be able to tell as he's already returned the card and didn't test it in another PC..

And another zero star topic by Taltamir? Damn!
 

Avalon

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2001
7,571
178
106
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: Avalon
For all you guys laughing at taltamir about the rails thing, FYI hard drives primarily run off 5V sources, not 12V, although some do. It really depends what type of drive you have in your system. Go look up the white papers for a modern hard drive before ragging on someone.

Avalon, lappy 2.5" HDD's run on 5V. Desktop drives run on 12V.

To test for yourself, try removing the yellow wire from the molex connector powering your hard drive. See what happens. Yellow wire is 12V. Red wire is 5V.

Right, in that case it uses both. Laptop drives come in both 5v and 3.3v varieties. My 7200.7 Seagate is a 5v drive, but my 320GB WD Sata is a 5v/12v drive.

All I'm trying to say is that 4-5 HDDs on a *good* 500w PSU isn't going to make or break an 8800GTS G92 system.

Granted he hasn't told us what his PSU is yet, but did mention his 12V rail amperage, which seems to indicate he's probably got a quality unit.

I just thought I'd give the guy a little benefit of the doubt when everyone else was jumping on him.