I order 2 dozen golf balls off Ebay

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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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https://www.walmart.com/ip/NEW-Dunlop-Tour-Elite-3-Mallet-Putter-35/330912452
I don't personally like the Anser, but that has to do with the hosel. When I started the game I used a Bullseye copy for a year and then got a Spalding T.P.M. which was a Wilson 8802 copy. Neither of those putters had any offset at all, so my stroke works without offset and my eyes are much more comfortable not seeing all that offset. The original Anser has that plumbers neck hosel with a full shaft offset and that's a great design for most it doesn't work for me and the way my stroke evolved. So I play what is essentially an Anser head on a non-offset hosel so that it sets up square. Examples here, the putter on the left has no offset, the one in the middle is half-shaft offset and the one on the right is full shaft. My putter is like the head shape on the right, but the hosel on the left.

mygolfspy-putter-offset-jpg.jpg


Your pro was right, a Bullseye sucks. Even pros don't use them anymore, zero forgiveness and terrible speed/direction control on even the slightest mishit. Amateurs should use a heel/toe weighted model like an Anser as a minimum and most would be better served going to a high MOI model like a mallet. Camerons are junk, they're just tarted up copies of other putters with insanely high pricetags because Titleist pays tour pros a shitload to use them. Same shape, same materials, same weighting as other brands, 3-4 times the price. You can buy a real Ping Anser for $100, a Scotty Anser copy for $400+ or walk into a Walmart and buy a Dunlop Anser copy for $20 and they'll all be pretty much exactly the same except for the graphics.

post-145637-0-95808800-1337859576_thumb.jpg
At Walmart's website I'm seeing these. Do any qualify as a quality putter for me?

Pinemeadow Golf Site 1 Men's Putter, Right-Handed

NEW Dunlop Tour Elite 2 Mallet Putter 35"
https://www.walmart.com/ip/NEW-Dunlop-Tour-Elite-1-Mallet-Putter-35/226966525
NEW Dunlop Tour Elite 3 Mallet Putter 35"

NEW Dunlop Tour Elite 1 Mallet Putter 35"


 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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They're called the Kirkland Signature. Costco just sort of dipped their toe into the water and didn't commit to golf balls. They wanted to test the market and bought some overstock 4-piece urethane balls from Nassau golf in Korea which is where the Snell comes from. It's actually a great ball, every bit as good as the ProV1 or any of the tour level balls from other manufacturers and Costco was selling it at $29.99 for 2 dozen. Once the test results hit the web the golf market went haywire. The balls sold out almost instantly and since Costco had only bought out some overstock without a long term commitment there were no more in the pipeline. They had to go through a lengthy process to arrange a new manufacturing deal to get more and in the down time demand was so high the balls were selling on ebay for $50-$60 per dozen. Costco eventually got things sorted out, got more in and they sold out almost instantly again. Now Costco is buying 2 different models from 2 different sources. They're still buying the 4-piece model from Korea and a different 3-piece model from Taiwan.

Thank you for the education! I am not a golfer, but my son is taking up the game. I managed purchase several dozen of the Costco four piece balls (about a dollar per ball as I recollect) as a Christmas present last year. It seems that these are not currently available, but they have Kirkland three piece balls online (again for a dollar per ball). I gather these are not quite as good, but perhaps better for intermediate players.

https://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Sig...KOEPlsva1PbXHlQrIm0c9UuT/hk0wEGsEeBo+RQhlx+py

Any sage advice you can offer will be appreciated.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
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Thank you for the education! I am not a golfer, but my son is taking up the game. I managed purchase several dozen of the Costco four piece balls (about a dollar per ball as I recollect) as a Christmas present last year. It seems that these are not currently available, but they have Kirkland three piece balls online (again for a dollar per ball). I gather these are not quite as good, but perhaps better for intermediate players.

https://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signature-3-piece-Urethane-Cover-Golf-Ball,-2-dozen.product.100406428.html?langId=-1&krypto=d/OHYLpsersWMZXRWY+lBgC8E4oDk+vSvSB2AAH7B3djCvFxaqmOaBmwDg3g0O4llyLGMmQC2c6iL9sPUu/RjhwcZX2E9nKq1SDLJALtfVHh1rh7KOfGnG8IFXqro3aObRN3wKTBk2pFKaWHL6yJhxZecPDHBg8waFwY+P3nAV8nP4/tk1X6WmznahdHMkvNnbtRvQ8r+ElxtyRAY8fKOEPlsva1PbXHlQrIm0c9UuT/hk0wEGsEeBo+RQhlx+py

Any sage advice you can offer will be appreciated.

If you have the 4-piece in new, unopened boxes, try selling them. They're currently unavailable again and probably worth more than you paid.

The difference between the 3-piece and 4-piece Kirkland is akin to the difference between theTitleist ProV1 (3-piece) and the ProV1x (4-piece) or the Srixon Z-Star (3-piece) and Srixon Z-Star XV (4-piece). Both the 3-piece and 4-piece Kirkland are high spin balls more suited to the skilled player than to the beginner to intermediate. Think of golf balls like cars, the "sportier" they are the harder they are to handle and the more likely they are to go spinning out of control in the hands of a novice. Until you're a lower single digit handicap spin is not really your friend and without knowing how to control it and direct it it just makes your misses even more wild. The vast majority of people who buy urethane, pro level balls because they see them on TV are being hurt by them and would score better playing something a lot cheaper. So if buying for an intermediate player I'd suggest something more like an intermediate ball like the Titleist NXT or Srixon Q-Star. Enough spin to grow into as their skills hopefully progress, but not so much that it magnifies slices and hooks to an out of control level. For a real beginner, I'd go even further down the line and buy a very soft, very low spinning ball like a Srixon Soft Feel or Titleist DT TruSoft. In the hands of a beginner those will fly both longer and straighter than a "tour" ball will and they'll score lower. A tour level urethane ball is something you need to grow into, it doesn't make you better just because better players use it. The kid will probably want what the pros play and golf equipment can be a status thing for guys, but getting him clubs and balls that are geared for pros will only hurt him in the long run.
 
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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
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They all qualify as a "quality putter" in that they have the same performance potential as any other putter. They'll be exactly as good as the guy holding it, no more, no less. I would encourage you to skip Wal-Mart for now and go to a Golf Galaxy or some other golf shop with a large selection of putters and an indoor green. People will often neglect the fit of the putter since they're not swinging it hard and they all look the same, but it's the most important club in the bag and the one where a poor fit can cost the most strokes. At least 70% of the golfers I see would improve by going to a shorter, heavier putter with a flatter lie angle. The 35" and 36" standard putters are not a good fit for most people. The length and upright lie angle makes them seem comfortable ("Hey, this feels good on my back!!") but they get the players hands and eyes in the wrong place and make it hard to align well and make a repeatable stroke. And most are too light. A heavier putter is generally better for guys who struggle on short putts because the weight helps smooth out a yippie, choppy stroke. Most guys believe the opposite and think that light putters are good for short putts because they're easier to control for a short stroke. Way wrong. Heavier is harder to swing hard, but much easier to keep online on the delicate three footers most guys miss regularly.

If you can, find a place with an adjustable test putter for fitting and try some putts with it in various positions. If not, then try to find one with a large selection of Pings. They have a new model called a Sigma 2 with an adjustable length shaft and many available lie angles. So that will help you get fit. And if they don't have that, try several different models and choke down on the shaft to varying degrees. Pick up a 36" blade putter like an Anser and stroke several putts of different lengths. Choke down an inch to 35" and stroke several more. Choke down another inch to 34" and stroke several more. Finally choke down another inch to like 33" and stroke several more. Repeat that with a small mallet style like an Odyssey #9 and finally repeat it again with a large MOI mallet like an Odyssey #7. Pay attention to where your misses go at each length, the feel of your hands and where your eyes fall. They should be directly over the ball and too long or too short will have your eyes in the wrong place and you'll never align yourself consistently well. If you can't go through a full fitting, at least do as much trial and error as possible so that you can find the right length, right head style, right lie angle and right weight to produce consistent rolls for your stroke and your body. Then you can go shopping for something that suits your stroke, your eye and your budget.

FWIW the "standard" off the rack model putter is 35" or 36" long with a 70*-72* lie angle and a head weight of 330-350 grams. I couldn't hit the hole from 5 feet away with any of those. I'm 6'1" and use a 33.5" putter with a 370 gram head and a 68* lie angle which is 2 or 3* flatter than standard. And almost everyone that tries my putter putts better with it than their own. Don't be the least bit surprised if your best result are with a club much shorter and heavier than you're currently using. Without having seen you or your game I'd still be willing to bet that your direction control and speed control both improve by going from 36" to 35" and improve again going from 35" to 34". And it would not be shocking if you get better going from 34" to 33" although I wouldn't bet on that as height and arm length become bigger factors as you go shorter.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Thanks for that rundown on putters. The golf marts around here are not where I normally traverse, so I'll have to make a special trip, but I know where they are and I've been there. They do have try out facilities and lots and lots of clubs. I even had my swing speed tested, this is probably 6 years ago or so. I went with a friend who bought a set of clubs.

I used to grip my Bullseye at the top. But I now grip it around 1.5" from the top. I tried even lower. I got the idea that it's not a good idea to have the elbows too bent. Some pros have almost straight arms when putting. I have no idea what my putter head weight is... I suppose I can find that out searching online, assuming the Bullseye was standardized.

When you say "a flatter lie angle," you mean not so erect but such that you are standing further from the ball to have the bottom of the putter parallel with the ground?

I encountered yesterday some notes I made about putting a few years ago. One was an observation made by a pro on a telecast. It was said that the best putters invariably point the putter shaft at their navel... during the entire stroke, from start to finish. I'm not sure this is true. Some of the prettiest putting strokes I've seen have the shaft pointing more toward the path of the ball at the end of the stroke, i.e. forward of the navel. But that would be a defect if the adage is true about pointing at the navel. The adage would endorse the belly putters. Those are, of course, banned now.
 
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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
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When you say "a flatter lie angle," you mean not so erect but such that you are standing further from the ball to have the bottom of the putter parallel with the ground?

Yes. Imagine 90* as being dead upright perpendicular to the ground and 0* as being parallel to the ground. A "standard" putter slants towards you by about 19 or 20* so that it's 70-71*. Getting flatter means decreasing the angle more towards 0* so that it leans towards your body more and getting more upright means that it moves away from your body. Don't get hung up on the numbers or the angles though, go by feel. Your hands are going to tell you when they're in the right position to make a comfortable stroke that repeats. When they're too high or too far away they're going to feel awkward like you can't control the shaft or maintain a consistent angle. When they're too low or too close you'll feel tied up like your body is in the way of the stroke. You're looking for the Goldilocks zone, the slot where the hands are in the perfect position to make make a natural flowing stroke, close enough to the body to be controlled, but not so close as to restrict movement.

Think of something like a broom. You're just going to pick it up and instinctively know the best way to sweep. If you hold it too far away from you then it will feel odd and if you hold it too close you won't make too much progress. So without being told you're going to grip it in the right place and use it the right way. It's so easy and natural you don't even think of it. That's what you should be looking for in the putter, the one that falls naturally to hand so that the stroke just flows out of it without you having to make an unnatural movement to compensate for it not fitting. Most guys just buy clubs that they like the look of and then have to invent a swing to fit it. That's backward, the club should fit the way your body wants to swing it.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Not all golfers (even great golfers) have the bottom of the putter parallel with the ground. Steve Stricker comes to mind. He has the toe lower than the heel. Stricker is legendary as a great putter.

Recently my putting has benefited from a conscious effort when making practice strokes (my routine which I try to stick to is 3), to find the correct angle. In making those strokes I not only try to get a feel for my stroke, I am searching for the natural angle for the particular putt I'm about to make (i.e. how far the putter head is going to be from the line drawn across the toes of my shoes, which I try to make parallel to the roll of the ball). Since greens almost always have slopes, that angle will vary from putt to putt. When making those practice strokes I try to have the same alignment I'm going to have when addressing the ball, about to make my putt. So, the angle that feels most comfortable will have been discovered as I'm making my practice strokes. This helps assure that my stroke will be pure and on line. I also try to make my practice strokes with the same strength as needed for the putt. I try to make that somewhat unconscious, but I wonder sometimes if I should give the power of the stroke more conscious thought! For putts inside around 6 feet I have a different mindset, somewhat. It's something I'm working on. Sometimes I do a lot better than others with the shorter putts. I need to work on that more.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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Your pro was right, a Bullseye sucks. Even pros don't use them anymore, zero forgiveness and terrible speed/direction control on even the slightest mishit.
I'm not saying you're wrong, you may be perfectly right there. But I believe that Corey Pavin (not your big hitter) IIRC won a US Open using a Bullseye. Until I get another, that's my putter.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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I'm not saying you're wrong, you may be perfectly right there. But I believe that Corey Pavin (not your big hitter) IIRC won a US Open using a Bullseye. Until I get another, that's my putter.
But I am shopping for another. Right now, I figure based on GagHalfrunt's info, I'm looking for a Ping Anser clone... either new or used. But I will try to ascertain what metrics are best for me... lie, length, weight head, whatever.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
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Not all golfers (even great golfers) have the bottom of the putter parallel with the ground. Steve Stricker comes to mind. He has the toe lower than the heel. Stricker is legendary as a great putter.

And you don't have to be over 6 feet tall to play in the NBA. The literally one in a million players who succeed putting that way are outliers, they're memorable because of the way they overcame something that's a detriment. Would you want to copy Jim Furyk's swing just because it worked for him?

I'm not saying you're wrong, you may be perfectly right there. But I believe that Corey Pavin (not your big hitter) IIRC won a US Open using a Bullseye. Until I get another, that's my putter.

More than 20 years ago and he was using a balata ball too. That's why I used the word "anymore". And the most important difference of all is, you're not Corey Pavin.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,085
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And you don't have to be over 6 feet tall to play in the NBA. The literally one in a million players who succeed putting that way are outliers, they're memorable because of the way they overcame something that's a detriment. Would you want to copy Jim Furyk's swing just because it worked for him?

More than 20 years ago and he was using a balata ball too. That's why I used the word "anymore". And the most important difference of all is, you're not Corey Pavin.
I'm for sure shopping for another putter, and in large part because of your comments.

I played today. I don't normally have regular partners but this is the 2nd time I've played with this group of 3 other guys, who play together regularly. We have a date for next Wednesday as well. They're all decent putters, some might say good putters. I hate to play with people who putt badly. It's demoralizing. But these guys are pretty good. My putting now is pretty good.

I was looking at my partners' putters today. One uses a 15+ year old Dunlop he said he bought at Big 5 Sporting Goods for $15 (the other guys have fancier putters). I told him I think it's a Ping Anser copy. He said he likes it because it's light. I remember what you said about amateurs benefiting from a heavier putter head, but I didn't say anything. I think I heard one of the guys saying that you can add screws to the back of the putter head to add weight if you want.

I mentioned to one of the guys today something I heard from Peter Kostis on a telecast this year -- he judges a player's putting not by his makes but by his misses. How badly does he/she miss sometimes. He didn't eleborate but I know that he meant that a really capable putter doesn't make a lot of really bad putts. I was OK today. No 3 putts, at least, and the greens on my home course are pretty difficult. So are the pin placements a lot of the time. I think one of the staff is to blame, but I don't know anything more than what I see on the greens. I'm especially good on the long putts, even really long putts. I really like practicing them is the reason. It's fun.

BTW, the upshoot of the snafu with only getting 13 of the 24 balls (the OP) I ordered is that the seller doesn't have any more of the ones I wanted and doesn't have any MINT yellow balls either. So, just today I agreed to settle on him refunding me ~1/2 my purchase price.
 
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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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Really good info GagHalfrunt. I don't play golf, and will probably never play golf, but I've enjoyed reading your detailed replies :^)
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
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I was looking at my partners' putters today. One uses a 15+ year old Dunlop he said he bought at Big 5 Sporting Goods for $15 (the other guys have fancier putters). I told him I think it's a Ping Anser copy. He said he likes it because it's light. I remember what you said about amateurs benefiting from a heavier putter head, but I didn't say anything. I think I heard one of the guys saying that you can add screws to the back of the putter head to add weight if you want.

I mentioned to one of the guys today something I heard from Peter Kostis on a telecast this year -- he judges a player's putting not by his makes but by his misses. How badly does he/she miss sometimes. He didn't eleborate but I know that he meant that a really capable putter doesn't make a lot of really bad putts. I was OK today. No 3 putts, at least, and the greens on my home course are pretty difficult. So are the pin placements a lot of the time. I think one of the staff is to blame, but I don't know anything more than what I see on the greens. I'm especially good on the long putts, even really long putts. I really like practicing them is the reason. It's fun.

Is the putter really lighter? A lot of guys will pick up mine and get the impression that it's lighter because it's shorter, but the head is 25-50 grams heavier than most off the rack putters. Feel is a funny thing, it's why clubs measure swingweight in addition to static weight. You can add 100 grams of mass to a club and it will feel lighter if the weight is in the butt end and remove 50 grams and make it feel heavier if the weight comes off the butt end. That guy could think his putter is light when it's really heavy and for all you know he could get a lot better by switching to something even heavier.

They talk about judging a basketball shooter by how he misses. A really good shooter rarely misses right or left, he misses short or long, but on line. Golfers it works differently. Most bad putters don't miss wildly left or right. A terrible putter will still get the ball mostly in the right direction the majority of the time. For bad putters, three-putts and four-putts are caused by bad speed control. You'll almost never see a guy miss 4 feet left or 4 feet right on a 50-footer on any greens that are less severe than Augusta's. When a 3-putt arises because the first putt was not close enough, 99% of the time it will be either very short or very long. Watch poor putters on putts of 20 or 30 or 50 feet and you're going to see a shitload of putts left 15 feet short or blown 10 feet by. The best advice you can give to beginners and poor putters is to pay 10 times more attention to the speed of a putt than they do to the line. Without the right speed, line is meaningless. You can glance at a putt for a second and gauge the line fairly accurately, to assure an easy 2-putt you have to nail the speed.

"I really like practicing them is the reason. It's fun." - And that, right these in a nutshell, is why so many guys practice so much and don't get better. It's fun to practice what you're good at and frustrating to spend time doing something you suck at. I'd be the richest person on earth if I had a dollar for every guy I saw that can hit driver okay, but not be able to hit a crisp iron, a proper chip or a bunker shot and then after firing a 120 go right to the range to hit a bucket of drivers. I used to be like that. I was born with the ability to hit a golf ball really well. It came naturally to me and I didn't have to work at it. The short game was a mystery. I could go out, hit 12-14 greens and shoot 85 because I'd 3-putt several of the greens I hit, convert few birdies and every green I missed was a double or worse. As natural as the swing came to me the short game felt 1000 times more unnatural and it drove me batshit crazy. So what did I do? I'd run right to the range, blast balls over the fence and leave people oooing and aaaahing over my "skills" so that I could FEEL better. But I didn't actually GET better until I stopped jerking off on the range and put in the work on the painful stuff.

Two fundamental truths for all golfers and aspiring golfers.

1) Practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent. If you have a slice hitting an extra bucket a week does not cure the slice, it ingrains it. You need to practice with a specific plan to address the faults that are holding you back.

2) Practice what you're bad at. Nothing cures itself by magic, it takes effort and it takes the willingness to go out and look like a fool hitting terrible shots to eventually stop hitting terrible shots. Golf is not a game of how good your good shots are, it's a game of how good your bad shots are. You can impress a lot of people on a driving range that's 1000 yards wide, but you can't score if any part of your game sucks. Strive to make the weakest part of your game average. Not tour level, not great, just average. Most guys who struggle to break 100 (and that's most guys) would be able to break 90 by fixing their one biggest fault. It's a BITCH to go from a 2 handicap to scratch, but it's EASY to go from 30 to 15. At that level fixing the one fault will pay huge dividends.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,608
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A tour level urethane ball is something you need to grow into, it doesn't make you better just because better players use it. The kid will probably want what the pros play and golf equipment can be a status thing for guys, but getting him clubs and balls that are geared for pros will only hurt him in the long run.

So my son was here today and I asked him how he liked the golf balls I gave him last Christmas. He replied that he liked them a lot; but that after losing quite a few early on, he shies away from using them! :tearsofjoy: Spot on, GagHalfrunt! I asked him how many he had left. It seems I actually bought him eight dozen(!) and he has at least five dozen unopened.

Maybe I will get him some of those Kirkland three-piece balls this Christmas. Some of the reviewers suggest that they are closer to the intermediate Titleist NXT and Srixon Q star balls that you mentioned. Perhaps he will be willing to put these lower quality balls at risk by actually using them. :blush:

To be fair to him, he has been putting effort into upping his game and tells me he shot an 85 last week (which I gather is pretty good?).
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
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So my son was here today and I asked him how he liked the golf balls I gave him last Christmas. He replied that he liked them a lot; but that after losing quite a few early on, he shies away from using them! :tearsofjoy: Spot on, GagHalfrunt! I asked him how many he had left. It seems I actually bought him eight dozen(!) and he has at least five dozen unopened.

Maybe I will get him some of those Kirkland three-piece balls this Christmas. Some of the reviewers suggest that they are closer to the intermediate Titleist NXT and Srixon Q star balls that you mentioned. Perhaps he will be willing to put these lower quality balls at risk by actually using them. :blush:

To be fair to him, he has been putting effort into upping his game and tells me he shot an 85 last week (which I gather is pretty good?).

Don't buy the Kirkland 3-piece. Same problem with the 4-piece, great ball for good players, not very good for intermediates. The reason some "reviewers" suggest they're close to the NXT and Q-Star is because that is how Costco categorized them before they came out. It's a technicality, when the ball is submitted to the USGA and R&A for testing so that it's deemed legal for tournaments the submitter must list a spin-rating for how the ball supposedly reacts when hit with a driver and how it reacts when hit with a short iron. The ratings are L-M-H for low-medium-high, so a ball listed as MM would be medium spin off the driver and medium spin off the irons, an LH ball would be low spin off the driver and high spin on the short irons, etc. When Costco submitted the ball to testing they had no idea what it would really do and listed it MM because that was the middle-most rating and they wouldn't be far off. So when it showed up on the conforming list it still carried that designation and the "reviewers" instantly lumped it in with the Q-Star and NXT based on that alone before anyone had ever hit it. In the real world the 3-piece is MH and if there was a category for M-VH it would be there because it spins a shitload off the irons. It's a tour style ball and will only hurt intermediate players. I *believe* the rating has now been changed to reflect the MH reality, but don't feel like scrolling through the entire conforming list to check.

Yes, 85 is good and it sounds like he's doing it the right way. If you want to buy him a golf-related gift, skip the balls entirely and go for something like a driver fitting or a putter fitting. Getting one or both of those clubs dialed in perfectly will save him more strokes than a new ball will.
 
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