I never knew so many on the left has such broken minds.

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Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
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I wonder what an SJW would say if you said you discriminate on the basis of progressiveness.

In other words, you don't like people who are not progressive like you.

Is that elitist? It is definitely classist.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
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2 problems with this thread.

A few people represent the "left" on a position not commonly represented.

How do we know you didn't just make this shit up? Its a common practice on the right. Keep repeating a lie until enough people believe. Recording, or it didn't happen
There are COUNTLESS recordings of exactly this insanity from college students. Seriously. It's not just common, it's pervasive.

Impossible to miss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,894
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I suppose being from south Texas, the extreme political zealotry of the left wing were just so... reasonable, and moderate. I gave money to the Texas Green party...

Had I known they were this ridiculous I would have stuck with the Democrats.

^^^ Empahsis mine.

Dixy, you cherry pick some youthful idiots on the "left" and try to smear the entire anti-Trump opposition. That's dishonest, and, as any abelist can tell you, a dimwitted attempt to generalize from an anecdote.

Well, Mr Crat, two can play that tired game:

Hgn1KFV.png


^^^ Pro Trump Fweedom Fighter in Portland, Oregon

All too many of your posts absolutely undercut your posited political self-description. There's a word for that: Bullshit.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Had to look it up and now I need some Tylenol after reading this:

https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/m...around-ableist-language-liberating-our-words/

Try these words on for yourself. Challenge yourself to criticize your opponents without demeaning their intelligence. Even if their actions are ridiculous, offensive, senseless, or malevolent.

I resolve not to call Trumpists retarded fuckwits, but instead will call them Soviet cucks and spineless traitors, although I fear I just offended the swinger and allegiance-challenged communities.
 
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Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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There are many people in this country who dislike the Democrats, and the political machine in general, yet *hate* the GOP with unbridled fury--at least, what they've now become. I'm one of these. In any other "modern" country I'd be considered right wing, I'm fairly certain. Here, I get lumped in with the far left and called a "libtard" for opposing the modern GOP, not to mention for opposing Trump (who has set a new standard for awful in my opinion).

I've had it out with friends on FB over their posting of left-wing bullshit from "Occupy Democrats" and worse...maybe slinging bullshit is what it takes to "win" in today's USA when so many people don't want context and facts, but far as I am concerned it makes you as bad as what you oppose.

I just don't engage many people politically now, including most of my own family. There's no point. Our points of view are based on entirely-different and incompatible versions of reality. If they push the issue then I don't spend time with them, period.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,455
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There are many people in this country who dislike the Democrats, and the political machine in general, yet *hate* the GOP with unbridled fury--at least, what they've now become. I'm one of these. In any other "modern" country I'd be considered right wing, I'm fairly certain. Here, I get lumped in with the far left and called a "libtard" for opposing the modern GOP, not to mention for opposing Trump (who has set a new standard for awful in my opinion).

I've had it out with friends on FB over their posting of left-wing bullshit from "Occupy Democrats" and worse...maybe slinging bullshit is what it takes to "win" in today's USA when so many people don't want context and facts, but far as I am concerned it makes you as bad as what you oppose.

I just don't engage many people politically now, including most of my own family. There's no point. Our points of view are based on entirely-different and incompatible versions of reality. If they push the issue then I don't spend time with them, period.
That's a great way to maintain a bubble.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,460
15,810
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There are many people in this country who dislike the Democrats, and the political machine in general, yet *hate* the GOP with unbridled fury--at least, what they've now become. I'm one of these. In any other "modern" country I'd be considered right wing, I'm fairly certain. Here, I get lumped in with the far left and called a "libtard" for opposing the modern GOP, not to mention for opposing Trump (who has set a new standard for awful in my opinion).

I've had it out with friends on FB over their posting of left-wing bullshit from "Occupy Democrats" and worse...maybe slinging bullshit is what it takes to "win" in today's USA when so many people don't want context and facts, but far as I am concerned it makes you as bad as what you oppose.

I just don't engage many people politically now, including most of my own family. There's no point. Our points of view are based on entirely-different and incompatible versions of reality. If they push the issue then I don't spend time with them, period.

This is true too : "for evil to succeed, it is only necessary for good men to do nothing"
Not taking a stand is taking a stand too. By doing nothing you are effectively taking what you have now for granted. That is a mistake, we as a species can go so very very *very* low...
 
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Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Hardly. I didn't say I'd disengage, far from it...I'm ready for action (even if that action is donating to enemies of my enemy).

Edit: I guess my post came across that way. I'm strictly talking about trying to have a discussion with GOP supporters about politics. That was on my mind since I had a recent extended family get-together that I frankly dreaded.

There's literally no good at all that could come from a political discussion with some of my family and a few of of my friends. None. We certainly could ruin our non-political relationship though.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
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Warning: meandering wall of text (hopefully it's interesting, it's certainly got something for most people. It's got WWI era intelligence testing for semi-illiterate soldiers, 60's youth movements and denazification)

tl;dr: Measurements of intelligence are often caught up in socioeconomic bias, and these people are conflating that with intelligence itself. They are either making assumptions about who they're speaking to or just can't represent the difference between something being fraught with bias and something being intrinsically biased. It's wrong but it's not necessarily a ton more off base than most other things but people are super touchy when accusations of bias or prejudice are thrown around.



Honestly it's pretty believable. However, that doesn't mean that the entire left is those people or anything totally dramatic like that.

All it is is the age-old phenomenon of people eagerly snapping up new ideas that they haven't fully metabolized yet and making a fool of themselves, but now in an era of pervasive communications that lets their mistakes be broadcast worldwide.

In this case the nugget of truth is that the measurement of intelligence has had huge problems with cultural and class biases creeping in, and the difficulty of creating a test that measures native aptitude without education changing the results (or representing intelligence as a natural aptitude when it's actually a combination of that aptitude and education). For an example, one of the first standardized intelligence tests applied to a large population was given to US soldiers in WWI. There was a written and non-written test. The written one is utterly execrable, but the non-written one (intended for soldiers with shakier English literacy) has a canonical example of cultural bias. One of the questions is a picture of a bunch of houses with instructions to say what's missing on the houses. Soldiers from an Italian background frequently answered a cross because those were ubiquitous on Italian houses back then. The "correct" answer was a chimney. Who in Italy is going to think a nice hot fire indoors is a good idea?

Similarly some things that don't represent intelligence one iota are frequently used as proxies for it. Most forms of vernacular English, be it the most usually referenced African American vernacular or just lower class dialects with strong accents (there's some fascinating legacies of dead Italian pronunciation in some New York and Pennsylvania accents as an example) aren't "proper" English. I speak "proper" English because it's what I was raised speaking. If anything someone managing to code switch fluently between two different vernaculars is more impressive, not less.

The thing is, that doesn't mean that intelligence itself is any of those things. It's just that someone needs to be honest with themselves about what's actually intelligence and which are just proxies that are based on bias.

There are COUNTLESS recordings of exactly this insanity from college students. Seriously. It's not just common, it's pervasive.

Impossible to miss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8

People go to college to learn. Give a final exam from a class to people who are just starting that class or who had a roommate who took that class and talked about it and see how badly it goes. That's the level a lot of people are on when they're talking about issues. They know something's wrong, and they latch on to the academic equivalent of a game of telephone. Do you think that the students in the Civil Rights Movement in the US or the 68er bewegung over in Germany could all clearly represent their ideological goals and worldview on camera at all times? Hell no. Does that mean that what they did didn't have value? Hell no. My dad is just about a right-anarchist with a staggeringly ill-reasoned worldview but the protests he went to got the cafeteria workers livable pay rather than the specially negotiated below minimum wage they got before. The 68er bewegung included actual unironic communists, but they were an essential component of the final success of denazification in West Germany by providing a final push to remove fascists when there were enough people to build a working state without them (I can go into a lot more detail about denazification if anyone wants, it's fascinating). Better yet, we can tell it was successful without doubt because East Germany didn't have a similar youth movement, and modern neo-nazism in Germany mirrors the east-west border.

Also as an aside, we expect better from colleges to the point of knee-jerk inanity legislating how to behave, but what's the overall standard of discourse in society at large? Are we even living up to the example provided by colleges? Or are we babbling out half-understood concepts just like the worst of them?

Guess I'm an ableist and classist bigot then! Intelligence is hot.

Yep, intelligence is hot but not in the sense of how neo-nazis love to wave around poorly considered concepts of it like "140 IQ Aryan man" (Direct quote from a propaganda comic incidentally). Being able to understand and apply intellectual frameworks is pretty awesome, especially if you can meaningfully attempt to understand other people's perspective. It's honestly a whole lot less important to me at least to be able to manage certain hallmarks of class or race (other than being able to converse somewhat fluently in English, but that's a me problem, not an other people problem. I'm a bad linguist and I lean heavily on certain peculiarities of English, such as using mostly synonymous words for subtext from their alternate meanings).




Good grief that's a long post. Now Blue Max gets to know how it feels to anyone who actually tries to watch one of his videos. ;)
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
2 problems with this thread.

A few people represent the "left" on a position not commonly represented.

How do we know you didn't just make this shit up? Its a common practice on the right. Keep repeating a lie until enough people believe. Recording, or it didn't happen
It's funny to me how often people on the right call anyone left of Reagan a SJW (and would call him a RINO if he were in the party today), yet I've met all of about 3 people in my life who would qualify as a SJW in real life despite being a liberal guy and knowing more liberal than conservative individuals. Yet at least 50% of those I've met who would self identify as conservative are moderately to extremely racist (with more of them on the extremely side).
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
^^^ Empahsis mine.

Dixy, you cherry pick some youthful idiots on the "left" and try to smear the entire anti-Trump opposition. That's dishonest, and, as any abelist can tell you, a dimwitted attempt to generalize from an anecdote.

Well, Mr Crat, two can play that tired game:

Hgn1KFV.png


^^^ Pro Trump Fweedom Fighter in Portland, Oregon

All too many of your posts absolutely undercut your posited political self-description. There's a word for that: Bullshit.
I'm fairly sure I just said "I should have stuck with Democrat." How that's pro-trump I'm not sure: could you illuminate?

l;dr: Measurements of intelligence are often caught up in socioeconomic bias, and these people are conflating that with intelligence itself. They are either making assumptions about who they're speaking to or just can't represent the difference between something being fraught with bias and something being intrinsically biased. It's wrong but it's not necessarily a ton more off base than most other things but people are super touchy when accusations of bias or prejudice are thrown around.
That's fair.

It's funny to me how often people on the right call anyone left of Reagan a SJW (and would call him a RINO if he were in the party today), yet I've met all of about 3 people in my life who would qualify as a SJW in real life despite being a liberal guy and knowing more liberal than conservative individuals. Yet at least 50% of those I've met who would self identify as conservative are moderately to extremely racist (with more of them on the extremely side).
That's odd. Most of my guy friends from high school are engaged in some sort of social justice project, either centrally as a job or peripherally as a part time activist.

Also, even among Texas conservatives, few I've met identify themselves as against anyone based on race. Though they are blind to the sociological factors involved.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
It's funny to me how often people on the right call anyone left of Reagan a SJW (and would call him a RINO if he were in the party today), yet I've met all of about 3 people in my life who would qualify as a SJW in real life despite being a liberal guy and knowing more liberal than conservative individuals. Yet at least 50% of those I've met who would self identify as conservative are moderately to extremely racist (with more of them on the extremely side).


These numbers, they sound pulled out of...an ass?
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
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Is working towards social justice in some form actually being what the pejorative SJW means? Or is it using social justice as a platform for smuggery and non-productive hate where the only thing that matters is using some semi-interchangeable doctrine to bash the other?

Because if it's the former, we've got a bunch here and that's totally a good thing.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
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I know a lot of progressive people and I've never seen a single one of them say anything like this. Are maybe some people silly enough to believe this? Sure. It's extraordinarily rare though.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,430
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Idiots will be idiots, no matter what side of the aisle they claim to be on.

Can we be done with ridiculous tribal infighting now, and get back to the fact that our country has become an embarrassing catastrophe?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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I know a lot of progressive people and I've never seen a single one of them say anything like this. Are maybe some people silly enough to believe this? Sure. It's extraordinarily rare though.
I'm also around progressives a hell of a lot and while what DixyCrat cited is at another level, there's definitely a virulent strain out there of folks on the left who go around looking for the latest thing to denounce other people on the left for. It strikes me as Marxist in tone in that they're always all trying to outdo each other with their ideological purity, and I'm loathe to utter words around these people because there's going to be something in the sentences I utter that I'm about to be called out for as being racist, sexist, ableist, unintelligent, et cetera.

It sucks. It's divisive as hell, and potentially career and life destroying - these folks have no compunction about putting your name and/or photo on the Internet to tell other people in their social circles what a racist / sexist / whatever they've decided you are. I avoid these folks like the plague and recommend DixyCrat to do the same; don't engage them.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
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It's long been apparent to me that very often when people talk about 'intelligence' they are really talking about class. People often aren't very , er, intelligent, in thinking about what they mean by 'intelligence' and mistake class signifiers for something to do with some supposed intrinsic mental capacity.

I don't see that it's even necessary to talk about 'intelligence' much of the time. Most of the time when someone appears to be 'unintelligent' its actually because it suits their interests to be so. Who was it who said" it's incredibly hard to get someone to understand something when their livelihood depends on their being unable to do so?". That seems to me to be more often the issue than some innate mental ability. People are selectively stupid depending on incentives.

Indeed, I think it's been shown in social psychology experiments that otherwise numerate people's ability to understand statistics falls apart when the stats in question relate to a topic they have strong feelings about.

On the other hand, it's also quite likely the OP hangs out with people who just like striking postures (the sort who use the word 'progressive'). Personally, I do try not to make judgments about people's 'intelligence' (because I've seen how bad many people are at such judgements, and I bet I'm no better), but I wouldn't say no-one should ever use the concept and I don't really see why anyone should care who the OP finds 'attractive'.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Idiots will be idiots, no matter what side of the aisle they claim to be on.

Can we be done with ridiculous tribal infighting now, and get back to the fact that our country has become an embarrassing catastrophe?

The catastrophe lies in things like the OP's characterization of the Left based on an encounter with some very radical people.

Raw intelligence certainly isn't a predictor of decency or any number of admirable qualities in a person.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,430
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The catastrophe lies in things like the OP's characterization of the Left based on an encounter with some very radical people.

Raw intelligence certainly isn't a predictor of decency or any number of admirable qualities in a person.

Yeah, and I don't use 'idiot' as a specific qualifier of intelligence. I've met plenty of intelligent idiots.

I personally think the catastrophe is coming from a thousand cuts rather than one coup de grace, but among which is the tribalism we're seeing from both 'sides'. What's wrong with just saying 'check out these random nutters I ran into!' instead of attempting to classify them as part of 'the enemy' and thus trying to erode their base.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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On the other hand, it's also quite likely the OP hangs out with people who just like striking postures (the sort who use the word 'progressive').

The sort who use the word "progressive?" I was with you up to that. :(

I am "the sort" who self-identifies and uses the word progressive. The Progressive movement has a long and storied place in American political history, and I am proud to call myself a progressive, in the vein of President Theodore Roosevelt and, on some issues, President Woodrow Wilson.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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The sort who use the word "progressive?" I was with you up to that. :(

I am "the sort" who self-identifies and uses the word progressive. The Progressive movement has a long and storied place in American political history, and I am proud to call myself a progressive, in the vein of President Theodore Roosevelt and, on some issues, President Woodrow Wilson.

OK, fair enough, it has a specific traditional meaning in the US. Here in UK it just gets used to denote all-purpose fuzzy well-meaningness and only appeared as a term recently in place of traditional categories of left and right.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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OK, fair enough, it has a specific traditional meaning in the US. Here in UK it just gets used to denote all-purpose fuzzy well-meaningness and only appeared as a term recently in place of traditional categories of left and right.

Yeah, that's the problem with amorphous 'categories', it tends to mean different things to different people, and so it's very easy to piss off someone you didn't mean to piss off by way of generalizations.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
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Yeah, and I don't use 'idiot' as a specific qualifier of intelligence. I've met plenty of intelligent idiots.

I personally think the catastrophe is coming from a thousand cuts rather than one coup de grace, but among which is the tribalism we're seeing from both 'sides'. What's wrong with just saying 'check out these random nutters I ran into!' instead of attempting to classify them as part of 'the enemy' and thus trying to erode their base.

I tend to use intelligent and smart in different senses, versus stupid and dumb. Intelligent/stupid is for academic aptitude, while smart/dumb is for ability to navigate life without making a mockery of yourself.

And yes. That's a huge point. The worst examples of each side shouldn't dominate the discourse, lest the people actually trying to communicate drown each other out.