I like these kids

[MomentsofSanity]

This is another one of those situations where someone is going to argue "but the bible says" while ignoring all the other shit that gets ignored in the bible they do every single day, isn't it?

I mean shit if you want to talk what Christ taught and believed and what is actually happening this is going to take a while.

 

[Paratus]

Maybe so, but Catholics are by far the majority population. Regardless of that, there are no Christian teachings that say abortion is acceptable.

Cute. I can show a similar chart comparing the number of bagels consumed in England equaling the number of deaths in WWII. Equally as valuable as this chart is to the topic of children/parents not agreeing with values that they are taught in a Catholic school...that they voluntarily enrolled into.

The decision to have unprotected sex leads to abortions more often than the decision to end a pregnancy does and Catholic doctrine is for married folks to have a lot of unprotected sex.

You know how you said you should never point a gun at something if you aren’t willing to shoot it? Well if you don’t want an aborted kid don’t be having unprotected sex.

 

[nakedfrog]

There are no Christian teachings that say using the internet is acceptable, WTF are they doing with internet access?

 

[brycejones]

Maybe so, but Catholics are by far the majority population.

This is not entirely accurate. There are approximately 2.6 billion Christians in the world. Roman Catholics are about 1.345 Billion of those so barely a majority. Not BY FAR the majority. Almost half of Christians have some form of doctrinal difference with the Catholic church. The belief that abortion is a sin is not universal among Catholics, and the number of Catholics who believe it is their right to impose their belief that it is on the population as a whole is smaller.

Just out of curiosity are you Catholic or some other Christian denomination?

 

[Zorba]

This was pre-planned, and it was pre-excused for students to leave. They even set up a place for people to not attend.

"We recognize that members of our school community, whether they are Catholic or not, have different viewpoints on this topic. We appreciate that those with different views shared those respectfully today. We offered an alternative safe venue for students."

If you send your kid to a Catholic school, and you or the kids are offended by a basic tenet of Christianity, I don't know what to say to you.....

Perhaps your kid should should go to another school?

Which basic tenet is that exactly? The one never actually discussed in the Bible?

 

[maluckey1]

This is not entirely accurate. There are approximately 2.6 billion Christians in the world. Roman Catholics are about 1.345 Billion of those so barely a majority. Not BY FAR the majority. Almost half of Christians have some form of doctrinal difference with the Catholic church. The belief that abortion is a sin is not universal among Catholics, and the number of Catholics who believe it is their right to impose their belief that it is on the population as a whole is smaller.

Just out of curiosity are you Catholic or some other Christian denomination?

Ignoring the trolls for now. For the most part they're not adding anything useful to this thread about choice, education and the Catholics.

Back to the thread. I'll buy that they are the majority, and not large majority. Now, how many of ALL Christian denominations teach that abortion is OK for convenience? It's just not a "thing" with Christians. That's NOT saying that it doesn't happen. People are flawed, and we cannot be perfect.

As for abortion amongst Catholics? It's NEVER OK. A great discussion on the topic.

morality - Is abortion okay, if the mother's life is at risk, according to Catholicism? - Christianity Stack Exchange

here's the Catechism

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 5 (scborromeo.org)

Not directed at you (seriously). Christians are Pro-Life, and Catholics are more so. If you go to a Catholic school and aren't pro-life, and are offended by that, then you might consider going to another school. It's called choice. If you can live peacefully alongside someone with different beliefs, that's a plus. If you can't, that's fine too. Be aware that you can't change opinion by shouting over someone. It just makes them like you less.

 

[mect]

Ignoring the trolls for now. For the most part they're not adding anything useful to this thread about choice, education and the Catholics.

Back to the thread. I'll buy that they are the majority, and not large majority. Now, how many of ALL Christian denominations teach that abortion is OK for convenience? It's just not a "thing" with Christians. That's NOT saying that it doesn't happen. People are flawed, and we cannot be perfect.

As for abortion amongst Catholics? It's NEVER OK. A great discussion on the topic.

morality - Is abortion okay, if the mother's life is at risk, according to Catholicism? - Christianity Stack Exchange

here's the Catechism

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 5 (scborromeo.org)

Not directed at you (seriously). Christians are Pro-Life, and Catholics are more so. If you go to a Catholic school and aren't pro-life, and are offended by that, then you might consider going to another school. It's called choice. If you can live peacefully alongside someone with different beliefs, that's a plus. If you can't, that's fine too. Be aware that you can't change opinion by shouting over someone. It just makes them like you less.

Why would you consider going to another school? Why not instead use your influence to try to promote positive change within your religion? Staging walkouts is not shouting over someone. It is a form of peaceful protest. It is a way for the younger generation to try to save their religious communities, because if religions aren't willing to modernize, then they are going to continue to decline instead. The Catholic church's only hope for the future is to listen to what the younger generation is trying to tell them.

I do find it ironic though that any time a group within a religion tries to apply influence over that religion, Christians get all bent out of shape, all the while ignoring the constant influence that religion tries to apply to society.

Beyond that, there is a wide chasm between a simple statement that abortion is wrong and saying abortion is comparable to the holocaust.

 

[Pohemi]

...If you send your kid to a Catholic school, and you or the kids are offended by a basic tenet of Christianity, I don't know what to say to you.....

Perhaps your kid should should go to another school?

Yes, because the parents always leave the schooling decisions to their respective kids? Give me a break. It wasn't the parents who walked out during the "presentation".

Ignoring the trolls for now. For the most part they're not adding anything useful to this thread about choice, education and the Catholics.

Calling people out on their made-up bullshit and constant goalpost-moving isn't trolling, so stop playing the oppressed victim. You're just a dipshit, and almost every post of yours in this thread just digs you deeper down into that hole.

 

[Vic]

The modern anti-abortion crusade among Catholics is just an extension of the tenet of infant damnation, which is also not in the Bible, but was a fabrication of the medieval church.

 

[nakedfrog]

Not directed at you (seriously). Christians are Pro-FORCED-BIRTH, and Catholics are more so. If you go to a Catholic school and aren't pro-FORCED-BIRTH, and are offended by that, then you might consider going to another school. It's called choice. If you can live peacefully alongside someone with different beliefs, that's a plus. If you can't, that's fine too. Be aware that you can't change opinion by shouting over someone. It just makes them like you less.

FTFY...

 

[MrPickins]

Yes, because the parents always leave the schooling decisions to their respective kids? Give me a break. It wasn't the parents who walked out during the "presentation".

Exactly.

I know it's anecdotal, but the large majority of my teenage friends who went to Catholic school were vocal that they would much prefer a non-religious education instead.

 

[maluckey1]

Why would you consider going to another school? Why not instead use your influence to try to promote positive change within your religion? Staging walkouts is not shouting over someone. It is a form of peaceful protest. It is a way for the younger generation to try to save their religious communities, because if religions aren't willing to modernize, then they are going to continue to decline instead. The Catholic church's only hope for the future is to listen to what the younger generation is trying to tell them.

I do find it ironic though that any time a group within a religion tries to apply influence over that religion, Christians get all bent out of shape, all the while ignoring the constant influence that religion tries to apply to society.

Beyond that, there is a wide chasm between a simple statement that abortion is wrong and saying abortion is comparable to the holocaust.

First of all, thanks for the genuine reply.

I agree, working from within is a valid way to respond. Walking out on hearing the other side is not.

I also agree that using another's pain as a comparison point is a poor choice, which I (personally) would never do. That being said, I am unapologetically Pro-Life.

Maybe it's because my Grandma was told that her future son was not likely to live. There were several complications. She ignored the advice, and My father was born at just over five months. My Grandma was admittedly a party girl (not common in the early forties), drinking, smoking and a lounge singer, and also under a bit of stress from WWII. My father was likely to be premature (under six months), and he was. Upon birth, they told her that he (my father) would be dead in the morning.

She put him in a shoebox on the side of the woodstove, then slept a few hours, and he was still alive, so she fed him...and again in a few hours. Four days later and he was thriving. Years later, two tours in Vietnam, 5 bronze stars (2 with V device), 4 air medals, 1 Purple Heart, 1 MSM, 1 South Vietnamese equivalent of Vietnamese Silver Star. He also rose through the ranks. He enlisted rather than be drafted, and rose to E-5,. At that time he went to OCS, and then flight school. He was eventually a Cobra pilot in Vietnam, then got out, returned as a warrant , then regained commission and then retired an O-4. Agent Orange ultimately killed him. He lived till the end without bitterness.

Instead of telling people that killing is bad (a literal no-brainer), perhaps Catholics should talk about what people can do? Guilt doesn't change people so much as inspiration.

 

[maluckey1]

The modern anti-abortion crusade among Catholics is just an extension of the tenet of infant damnation, which is also not in the Bible, but was a fabrication of the medieval church.

not sure what you are referring to, but willing to hear you out?

 

[maluckey1]

Yes, because the parents always leave the schooling decisions to their respective kids? Give me a break. It wasn't the parents who walked out during the "presentation".

Calling people out on their made-up bullshit and constant goalpost-moving isn't trolling, so stop playing the oppressed victim. You're just a dipshit, and almost every post of yours in this thread just digs you deeper down into that hole.

So, you agree that parent should be the ones to decide what their children are taught?

If so, then what is your issue? Parents can withdraw their kids at any time. Catholic schools focus on practitioners of the Christian faith. It's what they do, and they are unapologetic about it. As such, it's weird that non-Christians and fringe Christians are at arms over the basics that they learned in Sunday school .

 

[maluckey1]

Exactly.

I know it's anecdotal, but the large majority of my teenage friends who went to Catholic school were vocal that they would much prefer a non-religious education instead.

I agree that kids and their parents don't always agree.

My kids wanted to go to public school, bit I enrolled them in charter schools and classical education schools.

Hell! I wanted to go to another High-School because the cool kids went there. My dad said that adversity and failure are forms of education, and hating life=adversity. In retrospect, I can't say that he was wrong, though at the time I would argue. Being young sucked!

I like where I'm at. Most of my friends still have to work, while I sometimes am bored, and need adventure to fill my life. I can both curse and thank my parental units for that.

 

[maluckey1]

Yes, because the parents always leave the schooling decisions to their respective kids? Give me a break. It wasn't the parents who walked out during the "presentation".

Calling people out on their made-up bullshit and constant goalpost-moving isn't trolling, so stop playing the oppressed victim. You're just a dipshit, and almost every post of yours in this thread just digs you deeper down into that hole.

You enroll your kids in a school that teaches, based on a certain way of thinking, and they ask (and give permission to skip) that the kids to attend a presentation to that end. Now the parents are surprised by what they teach? From what I've read of your posts, I expected better of you. You, of all people should know that ignorance of choices are dangerous. Medicine is medicine, and science is science. Not much to explain to a patient that sepsis is best treated with antibiotics treatments and vasopressors. If they refuse, it's very possible they will die. What's to argue????

Back to the thread at hand. Not much to explain that the parents read the materials, then willingly enrolled their kids into said Catholic school. They can withdraw their kids at any time.

 

[Paratus]

First of all, thanks for the genuine reply.

I agree, working from within is a valid way to respond. Walking out on hearing the other side is not.

I also agree that using another's pain as a comparison point is a poor choice, which I (personally) would never do. That being said, I am unapologetically Pro-Life.

Maybe it's because my Grandma was told that her future son was not likely to live. There were several complications. She ignored the advice, and My father was born at just over five months. My Grandma was admittedly a party girl (not common in the early forties), drinking, smoking and a lounge singer, and also under a bit of stress from WWII. My father was likely to be premature (under six months), and he was. Upon birth, they told her that he (my father) would be dead in the morning.

She put him in a shoebox on the side of the woodstove, then slept a few hours, and he was still alive, so she fed him...and again in a few hours. Four days later and he was thriving. Years later, two tours in Vietnam, 5 bronze stars (2 with V device), 4 air medals, 1 Purple Heart, 1 MSM, 1 South Vietnamese equivalent of Vietnamese Silver Star. He also rose through the ranks. He enlisted rather than be drafted, and rose to E-5,. At that time he went to OCS, and then flight school. He was eventually a Cobra pilot in Vietnam, then got out, returned as a warrant , then regained commission and then retired an O-4. Agent Orange ultimately killed him. He lived till the end without bitterness.

Instead of telling people that killing is bad (a literal no-brainer), perhaps Catholics should talk about what people can do? Guilt doesn't change people so much as inspiration.

So, you agree that parent should be the ones to decide what their children are taught?

If so, then what is your issue? Parents can withdraw their kids at any time. Catholic schools focus on practitioners of the Christian faith. It's what they do, and they are unapologetic about it. As such, it's weird that non-Christians and fringe Christians are at arms over the basics that they learned in Sunday school .

So honest question. How do you reconcile your view that your grandma’s ability to make her choice was good or that parents have a right to make decisions where there children are concerned yet as an an unapologetic pro-lifer you would remove those choices from others?

 

[woolfe9998]

The issue isn't Catholics being pro-life. The issue is the manner of delivery. Comparing abortion to the Holocaust. That's a comparison I've criticized many times before in other contexts besides abortion.

That sort of over-cooked rhetoric is what you hear from activists, conservative talking heads, and far right politicians.

It doesn't belong in school.

 

[maluckey1]

The issue isn't Catholics being pro-life. The issue is the manner of delivery. Comparing abortion to the Holocaust. That's a comparison I've criticized many times before in other contexts besides abortion.

That sort of over-cooked rhetoric is what you hear from activists, conservative talking heads, and far right politicians.

It doesn't belong in school.

Totally agree, and I said so. I haven't seen that particular film, so I really can't comment much on it. If they are using the Holocaust as a measure, it's not something I agree with. In our Parish, the presentations I've seen were showing children growing up, parents sharing stories and having adoptive and foster parents talk about their experiences. Lots of discussion followed.

So honest question. How do you reconcile your view that your grandma’s ability to make her choice was good or that parents have a right to make decisions where there children are concerned yet as an an unapologetic pro-lifer you would remove those choices from others?

Grandma didn't make a choice. She was told that her child would die, or at best would live a few hours. The doctors were right about the complications. They were wrong about the child not surviving.

As for choice? I don't remove any choice from anyone. Like any faith, you are free to leave, and nobody is forcing anyone to attend. If you choose to stay, that's OK too.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Kids are fine, I was also subject to parents who would not stop sending me to religious school. It sucked, when the right rails against indoctrination, they really just want to limit any influence others may have on impressionable minds.

 

[maluckey1]

Kids are fine, I was also subject to parents who would not stop sending me to religious school. It sucked, when the right rails against indoctrination, they really just want to limit any influence others may have on impressionable minds.

I always felt that parenting was indoctrination of sorts. We imprint our values on the kids...whether they like it or not. I didn't like my "indoctrination", and railed against it constantly. As soon as I got accepted to college, I left home, moved to the United States and never looked back.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I always felt that parenting was indoctrination of sorts. We imprint our values on the kids...whether they like it or not. I didn't like my "indoctrination", and railed against it constantly. As soon as I got accepted to college, I left home, moved to the United States and never looked back.

Imprinting on our children can be much different than indoctrination, while still understanding that imprinting can be part of it.

Indoctrination like religions go for is much deeper than simply guiding a child looking for answers.

 

[maluckey1]

Imprinting on our children can be much different than indoctrination, while still understanding that imprinting can be part of it.

Indoctrination like religions go for is much deeper than simply guiding a child looking for answers.

I can only speak from my own reality as an Army Brat, raised on bases around the world. I felt less pressure at church than at home, or on base. Me and my buddies (the parents called us "the Reprobates") used to find any excuse to work on off-base community projects or with the church. It was time where we could be kids, and not nomads, soldiers and expected-to-be future leaders. I suppose they felt that it was character building. We thought it was a chance to hang with kids whose experiences were different. They had lifelong friends, whereas we moved every 1.5 - 2 years to a new location, often another state, and from time to time another country.

 

[Pohemi]

So, you agree that parent should be the ones to decide what their children are taught?

That isn't what I said, but it isn't false, either. Isn't that how it usually works with kid's educations (and all major life choices at that age)?

Not much to explain that the parents read the materials, then willingly enrolled their kids into said Catholic school. They can withdraw their kids at any time.

Would YOU leave a typical, average, ten year old child to make decisions on his education? Yes it's usually the parent's choice, my point (which you seemingly ignored or didn't understand) is that the parents who sent their kids there don't always know or realize what kind of rhetoric is being pushed at the kids in attendance.

As for choice? I don't remove any choice from anyone. Like any faith, you are free to leave, and nobody is forcing anyone to attend. If you choose to stay, that's OK too.

I realize you are speaking about schooling here, but...you're being disingenuous.

The curriculum for a school year won't show that there's a speaker hired to come in and push extreme views on the kids, nor do parents likely expect much difference in curriculum from public schools, besides some theological education and learning the bible. Not some dummy claiming that abortion = holocaust.

Catholics and conservatives have been trying to legislate with their twisted views of the Bible and faux moral superiority for more than a century in the US.

 

[maluckey1]

The curriculum for a school year won't show that there's a speaker hired to come in and push extreme views on the kids, nor do parents likely expect much difference in curriculum from public schools, besides some theological education and learning the bible. Not some dummy claiming that abortion = holocaust.

Catholics and conservatives have been trying to legislate with their twisted views of the Bible and faux moral superiority for more than a century in the US.

I already said it was poor choice to use the Holocaust to make a point. As far as Parents enrolling their kids into a Catholic school and expecting it to be like public schools.....really!? They did so with knowledge and foresight that it was a Catholic school. In this case, kids weren't forced to attend the presentation, and even were provided an alternate location to go to during the presentation.

We were having genuine dialog until your last point. Jill and Joe Biden, the guy you like and support are... wait or it...Catholic, and recently met with the head of the Catholic Church. I disagree with some of his methods and priorities, but for the most part he's doing O.K. I haven't seen much in the way of your accusations happening. Perhaps you should look up the Catholic Relief Services (one of the largest humanitarian organizations in the world), and the projects that it works? Might not see things so one-sidedly if you did? I've worked with CRS, Red Cross and USAID a few times over the years. It's pretty interesting how they work. Many times they work through other local NGO's, so that the aid recipients can have a local face to put with the assistance. For what it's worth, proselytizing is not OK on these missions.