I just can't get into RPG's

[desura]

A true RPG clearly divides what your character can do from what you can do. Thus, even though you may have cat reflexes, if your character's Dexterity stat is low, he/she should miss most of the time. That is crucial in determining if a game is an RPG or not. Many FPS gamers complained about how you could miss in Alpha Protocol even though the target was right in the middle of the cross-hair or targeting reticule, the reason is that AP was actually an RPG, and your character could miss where you wouldn't. Some people don't like losing this control over the game, and that's fine, RPGs are not for everybody, just like FPS are not for everybody

I would like to argue that objectively, statistical rolls are a horrible game mechanic.

Because they take control, and thus immersion, away from the player, and oftentimes results in games that play themselves.

They basically are a relic from an era when "combat" had to be done by long-division on pen and paper.

Nowadays, combat is done instantaneously on computers.

Also, I object to the whole "choice" in RPG's. In RPG's, you're still clearing out levels. It's just that you're using an outdated vestigial game mechanic instead of a modern real-time mechanic.

 

[cronos]

Depends on the RPG. The "heavy" ones have always had a fairly steep learning curve. OTOH, games like Torchlight are fairly "jump in and play".

Torchlight isn't an RPG, it's an action adventure game just like Diablo series.

I would like to argue that objectively, statistical rolls are a horrible game mechanic.

Because they take control, and thus immersion, away from the player, and oftentimes results in games that play themselves.

They basically are a relic from an era when "combat" had to be done by long-division on pen and paper.

Nowadays, combat is done instantaneously on computers.

Also, I object to the whole "choice" in RPG's. In RPG's, you're still clearing out levels. It's just that you're using an outdated vestigial game mechanic instead of a modern real-time mechanic.

You dislike a classic RPG game. That's fine. It's not for everyone. It doesn't mean that you decide what an RPG game is, as it is what it is.

 

[Borealis7]

I play almost exclusively RPG games, with the exceptions of TBS (space 4X, fantasy TBSs) and a Borderlands now and then. What i like most is the ability the game mechanics give me to BREAK THE SYSTEM AND BECOME INVINCIBLE! MWAHAHAHAHA. Fast Pacded Action FPSs don't give me as much of a thrill as tactically humiliating the AI does.
I also love micro-managing and I learn the rules and use them to gain the biggest advantage i can get and crush the AI. I try to apply the same logic in life

BTW, liked FF series? try The Last Remnant.

 

[yepp]

Haven't finished an RPG since Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, everything since failed to hold my interest. Either that game set the bar way too high or I just can't get into RPG's anymore.

 

[Morbus]

I also prefer linear RPGs and not ones with 500 million open quests at the same time, etc.

You obviously do, since your favorite "RPGs" are just garden-variety action/strategy adventure games that people usually think of as RPGs.

Thumbs up for Secret of Mana though. Great game.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

RPG's are certainly a time sink that many people are not willing to invest in. I find they typically have the best stories and are the most interesting games to play over time, though.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I would like to argue that objectively, statistical rolls are a horrible game mechanic.

If you think that pushing the right button at the right time is a good game mechanic then you are wrong. It creates a game that is all tactics and no strategy. Statistical rolls give an element of strategy to a game. Not only do you have to choose the right thing to do but have to have prepared for it beforehand.

Because they take control, and thus immersion, away from the player, and oftentimes results in games that play themselves.

They don't take control, they cause things to go wrong. If you have ever fired a gun in real life you would know that the bullet does not always go where the little red dot is, no matter how well your scope is zeroed in.

They basically are a relic from an era when "combat" had to be done by long-division on pen and paper.

Combat never had to be done 'long-division on pen and paper' we did it that way because we wanted combat to be a challenge. There were always game systems like 'Amber RPG' where there was no dice rolling, only the person with the best skill level won. Combat with random elements forces the players to improvise when things don't go as planned. It forces you to be creative, and not just push the right button at the right time.

Nowadays, combat is done instantaneously on computers.

Even on stat based systems.

 

[Morbus]

I should say I hate dice rolls. I understand they have their place, but I like games with no dice rolls. Some RPGs have no dice rolls, many strategy games have no dice rolls, I think it's better.

As a matter of fact I have designed a (working) turn based/real time hybrid combat system that has absolute ZERO dice rolls. It was a challenge, but it plays brilliant and it's tremendously powerful from a level design standpoint.

Unfortunately, I'm a two-bit game designer and a web programmer, so it's unlikely my system (the first and only so far REAL hybridization of real time and turn based, even) will see the light of day in the next decade, if at all

 

[xantub]

To me 'dice rolls' are a necessity for RPGs, otherwise they're just Action games (nothing wrong with that, but they're different genres).

 

[asteldian]

It's not RPGs that bore me specifically, it is single player games. I used to enjoy Daggerfall, Baldur Gate, Planescap etc. But by the time the era of Oblivion, Dragonage and all those kinds of games came out I was done. Couple hours and I am bored.
I am still a pen and paper RPer, but what keeps me enjoying it is both the story AND the players, and that is what single player RPGs lack - very long ques driven games with no one else.

I like char development in my games, whether it be RPG or FPS Deus Ex style, I like it, but again, singl player I get bored.

I am now purely a dirty MMO player, despite my issues with the genre, I just find it a lot more fun to share the experience with people.

Funnily enough, Elder Scrolls Online is quick becoming my favorite MMO in a long while - for me it combines my old enjoyment of RPGs with the social element, it's the first MMO I have played where I don't give a damn about my lvl and just enjoy finding the next questline

 

[Morbus]

To me 'dice rolls' are a necessity for RPGs, otherwise they're just Action games (nothing wrong with that, but they're different genres).

What about the many party based, turn based RPGs with no dice rolls? Heroes of Might and Magic come to mind.

 

[xantub]

What about the many party based, turn based RPGs with no dice rolls? Heroes of Might and Magic come to mind.

I wouldn't call HoMM an RPG, you're not playing a role in the game, or more like, in each map you're playing a role of someone different. It also has dice rolls for things that are % based (damage, chance of special afflictions and what not), but I do see your point. I guess by 'dice rolls' I meant basically having the result of actions depend on the character's abilities, and not yours.

 

[Morbus]

I wouldn't call HoMM an RPG, you're not playing a role in the game, or more like, in each map you're playing a role of someone different.

Doesn't the same exact "problem" exist in a game like Temple of Elemental Evil or Icewind Dale?

Also, what exactly does dice rolls in the COMBAT system have to do with the role-playing? It's just a mechanism of the game, of the combat system, and my point was that there are plenty of non-action RPGs without dice rolls, and I prefer when they don't exist at all.

I guess by 'dice rolls' I meant basically having the result of actions depend on the character's abilities, and not yours.

Well, if that's the case I'm wholly with you. If you can't role-play a crappy warrior if you're a skilled player, or you can't role-play a skilled warrior if you're not a skilled player, then it's not a fully fledged RPG, simple as that.

Incidentally, my combat system (that I spoke of before) also takes into consideration the tactical proficiency of the character, to the point where the player can't fully compensate for having stupid character with metagamish tactics...

Ah, maybe some day...

 

[artemicion]

Doesn't the same exact "problem" exist in a game like Temple of Elemental Evil or Icewind Dale?

Also, what exactly does dice rolls in the COMBAT system have to do with the role-playing? It's just a mechanism of the game, of the combat system, and my point was that there are plenty of non-action RPGs without dice rolls, and I prefer when they don't exist at all.

Interesting - what non-action RPGs don't rely on dice rolls?

Hard to imagine a typical RPG without some elements of randomness to serve as a stand-in for certain nuances of the game. E.g., To Hit % and Crit Chance % serving as a stand-in for aiming.

Fire Emblem comes to mind as an RPG type game that minimizes the use of random calls, but even then IIRC To Hit % and Crit % involve random calls/dice rolls. Which is ironic, since I imagine the devs minimized the random calls to make the game more predictable and strategic, yet in the end they kept in Crit Chance, which is the biggest griefer in the game (getting permadeath'd randomly by a lucky crit from an enemy)

 

[Red Storm]

You dislike a classic RPG game. That's fine. It's not for everyone. It doesn't mean that you decide what an RPG game is, as it is what it is.

This. There are plenty of action games that are more suited for those who like that sort of thing. Leave the classic RPGs alone.

 

[Warsam71]

For me, it comes down to the RPG itself. I haven't played any lately; but if I were to stretch the definition to include MMORPGs then I can't say I still enjoy them. I played GW2 last year, loved the game, then got bored and switched back to FPS (I'm playing BF4 atm).

I think it comes down to the amount of time I have to dedicate to an RPG and more importantly to the story/content of the game.

 

[Morbus]

Interesting - what non-action RPGs don't rely on dice rolls?

Well, I just said. Heroes of Might and Magic. I think Disciples didn't either.

Admittedly, it's a different school of role-playing, rules-wise, no doubt. But honestly, there's no reason to rely on dice rolls as much as tactical RPGs usually do. If you want to preserve realism, then you'll have a bit more work designing your combat system, but if a two-bit game designer like myself can do it, so can big companies.

I think it's more of a tradition type of thing. I mean, dice rolls are THE thing you remember most about pen and paper RPGs, and the most icon RPGs of all time being stuff like Fallout (designed to emulate the feel and experience of a pen and paper RPG), Planescape, and Baldur's Gate (both designed on the dungeons and dragons ruleset), it's only natural that their influence is felt everywhere.

I think it's laziness though, from the designers side. I mean, I have no doubt there are NO game designers working on ANY of the big name RPGs, there's just the producers and the marketing department, but there are plenty of small independent RPGs being made, and I think it's mostly laziness that drives their developers to rely so much on dice rolls.

 

[mizzou]

the last JRPG I enjoyed was tales of symphonia.

I generally don't care for them, they feel bloated.

I really liked dragon age however.

 

[pathos]

Well, I just said. Heroes of Might and Magic.

Heroes of Might and Magic is a strategy game though and not an rpg. Are we counting strategy games?

Now, Might and Magic is an rpg, but it seems to to rely on dice rolls, or, at least, what I consider dice rolls, even if it's doing it on the background.

Heroes though, since it's not an rpg, I don't really consider it in the same conversation.

 

[Morbus]

Heroes of Might and Magic is a strategy game though and not an rpg. Are we counting strategy games?

Excuse my lack of gaming culture. There's no reason why and RPG would work with HoMM combat system.

 

[sweenish]

I like the ignorance of hte SRPG, which Disciples II would count among.

Strategy and RPG are hardly mutually exclusive genres.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I find myself more into the linear story driven RPGs like witcher than open games like skyrim. After getting distracted by the same old fetch quest randomly for the 500th time I just lose interest in the game entirely.

That when I go back to my roots and play fps games. There's nothing quite like using your superior skills in an fps to ridicule and anger everyone playing against you. 90% of my fps enjoyment comes from inducing rage in other players.

 

[Warsam71]

That when I go back to my roots and play fps games. There's nothing quite like using your superior skills in an fps to ridicule and anger everyone playing against you. 90% of my fps enjoyment comes from inducing rage in other players.

I feel about the same as you. FPS has always been my favorite genre and I normally go back to it, not to anger others though, but as a stress relief; nothing better to shoot at others or knife them or when playing solo, shooting at anything that moves or that is breakable.

 

[DigDog]

as far as i know, the only game of these last few years which can call itself a RPG was Temple of elemental evil. All other games were action games.
RPGs are games where your CHARACTER does the fighting, spellcasting, lockpicking, talking and such. If you go with a chaotic evil warlock, you *don't* get to pick dialogue options such as "sure, i'll save your village" - you have to play the role.
Funny they are called Role Playing games, it's almost as if they meant it.
skyrim, fallout, mass effect, and so on : not RPG.

 

[pathos]

Excuse my lack of gaming culture. There's no reason why and RPG would work with HoMM combat system.

I like the ignorance of hte SRPG, which Disciples II would count among.

Strategy and RPG are hardly mutually exclusive genres.

Sure, if you expand the rules we go by to encompass whatever you want, then yeah, you can use whatever theories or justifications you feel like.