i invite you to have an intelligent convo about middle east

[UltraQuiet]

Red - Here's a link to the supposed technology sale Lavi Jet Personally I don't understand why Israel would sell this technology to the Chinese since the Chinese sell so much stuff to the Middle Eastern countries who would so dearly want to make Israel go away. Israel would have to know that they could end up fighting against anything they sold to the Chinese. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[bizmark]

<< << Especially, in particular, that 1) U.S. aid to Israel has cost the U.S. around $134bil because we're giving Israel money that we don't have; and 2) Israel gave/sold fighter jet technology, that had been developed with American money, to the Chinese? >>

If they did then all aid should be cut off immediately. Do you have any proof to back your allegation? >>



The link that I had in my post where I first mentioned the Lavi was to a website that seemingly had no political agenda and was just about fighter jets. I quote (from the article on the Chinese J-10) "Although Israel has denied any unauthorized technology transfer, it is known that Israel has supplied some assistance in the development of the J-10." (from the article on the Lavi) "The marketing project [marketing the Lavi, and Israeli fighter technology/knowhow in general, to other governments] did find significant success in China, and IAI has provided assistance to Chengdu in developing the very similar (and perhaps identical) J-10."

Again, I cannot find a political agenda behind these statements on this website and therefore have no reason to doubt them. The link that DaveSohmer provides is quite informative and presents information that appears solid (i.e. it's not just spin but rather documents factual occurances, and names names of people who have knowledge of this subject) and therefore I don't doubt its veracity, but the website/organization, "The Washington Report On Middle East Affairs", has a clear pro-Palestine/anti-Israel bias. That said, however, I don't think that they could get away with falsifying congressional testimony and producing false quotes from State Department personnel.



<< Pentagon sources revealed to the Washington Report that when U.S. Secretary of Defense William Perry confronted Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin with the allegations concerning transfer to China of U.S. stealth and other fighter aircraft technologies last year in Tel Aviv, Rabin promised to "resolve the issue." >>





<< Former CIA director R. James Woolsey informed the U.S. Senate in late 1993 that he was "alarmed" by the military partnership between Tel Aviv and Beijing, and officially accused Israel of "illegally supplying China with classified defense technology from sources in the West." >>



So is this "proof"? I don't know, but I think that it's about as good as anyone could get without an actual production model of that Chinese jet.

[edit]Whoa! Just read the bottom of that link DaveSohmer provided. Attributed to former CIA director James Woolsey, testifying before Congress:



<< He said also that China will rely on Israeli expertise to create sophisticated airborne radar that employs super-secret technology that has been entrusted to Israel for another multibillion dollar joint project?production in Israel of the Arrow missile defense program which also has been funded largely by the United States. >>



Now that's *really* bad. :| F-16s have been around a long time, but if there's something "super-secret" that they've given to the Chinese, then that's a few notches up on the betrayal scale.



<< Personally I don't understand why Israel would sell this technology to the Chinese since the Chinese sell so much stuff to the Middle Eastern countries who would so dearly want to make Israel go away. Israel would have to know that they could end up fighting against anything they sold to the Chinese. It just doesn't make sense to me. >>



You're right -- it doesn't make sense from a long-term perspective. But, IMO what Israel's doing to the Palestinians right now is short-sighted too. So it doesn't surprise me very much. Besides, China isn't going to sell state-of-the-art stuff to Arab nations, especially in the kinds of numbers needed to be effective in an offensive war against Israel. First, China would want whatever production they can ramp up for its own forces; second, Arab nations probably couldn't afford it. So Arab nations would buy the Chinese second-hand stuff instead. But then, I'm far from an expert on international arms trading, so maybe I'm wrong.

Actually, on third thought, it kind of does make sense. Israel has developed and knows all of the secrets behind the stuff they sold to the Chinese. If the Chinese sell it to the Arabs, then Israel knows exactly what's behind the system, in particular its weaknesses (maybe they were really crafty and even hid a few! Damn, that'd be smart of them!). Besides, it's kind of a given that even if the Arabs have technology X, Israel will always have technology X+1.

 

[prontospyder]

<<Personally I think it is money well spent since it keeps that putrid horde of Midlle Eastern countries from doing the ethnic/religous cleansing that they so badly want to do. Without our support every Jew in the area and Israel itself would dissapear. >>

Maybe the US should have a Marshall Plan for a few Middle Eastern countries....build them into an economic superpower like Germany or Japan. Maybe that'll divert them away from religious fanaticism towards develop their own economies to compete. I mean, every Asian country tries to emulate the economic success of Japan....and by doing so, the standard of living goes up and it's more peaceful in that region.