i invite you to have an intelligent convo about middle east

[Texmaster]

<< Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though. >>

Let's pretend for a moment it's true - because it could be. If this is the case we are agreed that Arafat has no say/power in the matter, right? And thus if that is the case how can a cease fire exist? Either he has power in which case he can stop it - meaning he has already condoned terrorist actions if he has power - or he doesn't have power, in which case he can't stop it. So who can? Israeli military moving in. The fact is talk was getting NOWHERE except more blown up israeli cafes. If Arafat has no power he is a waste of time. If he has power it means he has condoned these bombings and should be removed.[/i] >>



Well said.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< They blow the sh*t out of the people who are targeting their civilians with homocide bombers. >>

Now if they cou7old do that without killing innocent Civilians then I doubt I would have a problem wiih that. In fact I think I would support that 100%. Unfortunately there is collateral damage which makes them as bad as the bombers themselves.

 

[zayened]

<<

<< They were ready for peace 4 weeks ago when Israelies stopped ALL hostile action and ALL retaliation for 2 WEEKS and Arafat's response was to increase the number of homocide bombers.
---
Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though. >>

Let's pretend for a moment it's true - because it could be. If this is the case we are agreed that Arafat has no say/power in the matter, right? And thus if that is the case how can a cease fire exist? Either he has power in which case he can stop it - meaning he has already condoned terrorist actions if he has power - or he doesn't have power, in which case he can't stop it. So who can? Israeli military moving in. The fact is talk was getting NOWHERE except more blown up israeli cafes. If Arafat has no power he is a waste of time. If he has power it means he has condoned these bombings and should be removed. >>




Skoorb, please read my post above about the leftist factions that wouldn't listen to their form of government,whether it be Israeli's (i.e. the person who asassinated his own PM due to the fact that he almost made peace with Arafat) or be it the Palestinians (the current terrorist groups you are hearing about on tv). the fact is, they are not listening to Arafat, and there is nothing arafat can do about it due to the lack of government he has, which is due to the occupation and the lack of a palestinian state. and in return, Israel goes after what little government Arafat has, and tries to justify it as "going after terrorism".

 

[JoeBaD]

<< I'll say it again.

2 Weeks Sharon did not retaliate and stayed quiet for 2 weeks as a gesture of peace. During that time Arafat sent even more homocide Bombers.

Those are the FACTS. >>




GESTURE OF PEACE MY ARSE!!!

The Palestinians don't want Israel to be quiet, they want their friggin' land back. Israel being "quiet" doesn't do a dang thing for the thousands sitting in refugee camps.

Until Israel is willing to give land back there never will be peace and we will have to continue to support both friggin' sides.

 

[jjones]

<< back in '93 or whenever it was, Arafat and Rabeen (former asassinated PM of Israel), were SO close to making peace, that Rabeen was asassinated, not by a Palestinian, but BY AN ISRAELI! why do you think that Israeli killed him? it is because he (and a whole group of Israeli's which he was part of) didn't want to make peace with the Palestinians. Yup, believe it or not, there are leftist Israeli's who actually don't want peace with Palestinians, but would rather see them wiped out. >>


I don't think this is exactly correct. IIRC, Rabin was assasinated because he was viewed as too moderate by hardline Israelis and the peace negotiations were going to include giving up the settlements, which is a very contentious issue with Israelis. I could be wrong about this because I haven't looked it up but I seem to remember this as the reasoning behind the assasination.

One of the worst political moves the Israelis ever made was the settlements. It has caused them more harm and grief than any good they get out of them. When they occupied the territories they should have done a complete job of it rather than the half-assed accommodation to the Palestinians they have been dealing with for decades now.

I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they first began the settlements. It's a very nasty thorn in the side of the peace process and even the issue of occupation itself. They dug this hole for themselves and I think part of the Israeli leadership's thinking may be that they have one of two choices: Stomp on Palestinian terrorism until peace comes about one way or the other; or, get the Palestinians so riled up that they do something incredibly stupid and violent that it will give the Israelis an excuse to go in and finish what they should have done in '67.

 

[Lucky]

nm

 

[zayened]

that is the point. Israeli's are ALLIGATING that Arafat is behind the end all, be all terrorism that is going on. The fact is that Arafat has just as much controll over these terrorists as he does over the Al Qaeda terrorist network. but Israel isn't going after the terrorists, they are going after Arafat and the Palestinian "state", for lack of a better word.

 

[jjones]

<< The fact of the matter is that Israel does not want peace if it means giving up its conquests. >>


History does not support this. After '67 giving up land for peace was exactly what they had in mind and have done with the exception of the mess they have made of the Palestinian territories.

 

[zayened]

<<

<< back in '93 or whenever it was, Arafat and Rabeen (former asassinated PM of Israel), were SO close to making peace, that Rabeen was asassinated, not by a Palestinian, but BY AN ISRAELI! why do you think that Israeli killed him? it is because he (and a whole group of Israeli's which he was part of) didn't want to make peace with the Palestinians. Yup, believe it or not, there are leftist Israeli's who actually don't want peace with Palestinians, but would rather see them wiped out. >>


I don't think this is exactly correct. IIRC, Rabin was assasinated because he was viewed as too moderate by hardline Israelis and the peace negotiations were going to include giving up the settlements, which is a very contentious issue with Israelis. I could be wrong about this because I haven't looked it up but I seem to remember this as the reasoning behind the assasination.

One of the worst political moves the Israelis ever made was the settlements. It has caused them more harm and grief than any good they get out of them. When they occupied the territories they should have done a complete job of it rather than the half-assed accommodation to the Palestinians they have been dealing with for decades now.

I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they first began the settlements. It's a very nasty thorn in the side of the peace process and even the issue of occupation itself. They dug this hole for themselves and I think part of the Israeli leadership's thinking may be that they have one of two choices: Stomp on Palestinian terrorism until peace comes about one way or the other; or, get the Palestinians so riled up that they do something incredibly stupid and violent that it will give the Israelis an excuse to go in and finish what they should have done in '67. >>






don't you see? the whole basis for peace in this area is Palestine getting it's own state in the west bank and gazza. do you seriosly think that Israel would allow the settlements they built on palestinian land to become land which is part of a Palestinian state? no. that is why Rabeen was asassinated. That is why when I say Israeli's also have groups who don't want peace, it is true. And that is why it is Israel who would never allow peace to happen.

 

[zayened]

<<

<< The fact of the matter is that Israel does not want peace if it means giving up its conquests. >>


History does not support this. After '67 giving up land for peace was exactly what they had in mind and have done with the exception of the mess they have made of the Palestinian territories. >>




this "mess" your talking about is the movement of palestinians from their homes to build the settlements on their land. explain how israel was giving up land for peace when to this day they are STILL building settlements? (which, by the way, was a project started and implemented by Sharon).

 

[jjones]

<< don't you see? the whole basis for peace in this area is Palestine getting it's own state in the west bank and gazza. do you seriosly think that Israel would allow the settlements they built on palestinian land to become land which is part of a Palestinian state? no. that is why Rabeen was asassinated. That is why when I say Israeli's also have groups who don't want peace, it is true. >>




<< this "mess" your talking about is the movement of palestinians from their homes to build the settlements on their land. explain how israel was giving up land for peace when to this day they are STILL building settlements? (which, by the way, was a project started and implemented by Sharon). >>


You need to brush up on the history of the region prior to the 90's. These issues were decades in the making, not issues of recent events. You need to understand some of the political thought following the Six Day War, the view towards the refugees (not Palestinians as they are called today), and Israel's negotiating peace for land.

 

[zayened]

<<

<< They blow the sh*t out of the people who are targeting their civilians with homocide bombers. >>

Now if they cou7old do that without killing innocent Civilians then I doubt I would have a problem wiih that. In fact I think I would support that 100%. Unfortunately there is collateral damage which makes them as bad as the bombers themselves. >>




the whole point that the Palestinians are trying to make is that Israel wouldn't have to clean up the dirty work if Palestinians had the means to do it, which is their own governent of their own state.

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< They blow the sh*t out of the people who are targeting their civilians with homocide bombers. >>

Now if they cou7old do that without killing innocent Civilians then I doubt I would have a problem wiih that. In fact I think I would support that 100%. Unfortunately there is collateral damage which makes them as bad as the bombers themselves. >>



Collateral Damage makes them as bad? How is that? If their target is not civilians but some civilians die, thats just war IMO.

If they were specifically targeting innocent civilians then I would see a major problem.

 

[Texmaster]

<< GESTURE OF PEACE MY ARSE!!! >>



What an intelligent response.



<< The Palestinians don't want Israel to be quiet, they want their friggin' land back. Israel being "quiet" doesn't do a dang thing for the thousands sitting in refugee camps.

Until Israel is willing to give land back there never will be peace and we will have to continue to support both friggin' sides. >>




By your warped logic ANYTHING Israel does good or bad will never resolve this conflict. Thats the EXACT stance of terrorists organizations. Congrats.

 

[Texmaster]

<< the whole point that the Palestinians are trying to make is that Israel wouldn't have to clean up the dirty work if Palestinians had the means to do it, which is their own governent of their own state. >>



The number of terrorists Israel has arrested is somewhere around 4000.

Arafats own Police force is 30,000-40,000. If he wanted to do it, he would.

And how do you explain the miliary wing of Fatah, Arafats OWN party using homocide bombers? How can you possibly think he is Not involved if he gives the Money?

 

[JoeBaD]

<< What an intelligent response >>



Well, if you want to make this personal ....

I knew a few Texans when working in Audit with GTE. I can remember sitting in a lounge in a very nice hotel sippin' a cold one when one of you texas intellectuals shouts out to a very nice looking woman passing by: "There's one mighty fine looking heifer!".

What a pick up line!

I don't recall the jerks' name. You ever do any audit work Tex?

 

[zayened]

<<

<< the whole point that the Palestinians are trying to make is that Israel wouldn't have to clean up the dirty work if Palestinians had the means to do it, which is their own governent of their own state. >>



The number of terrorists Israel has arrested is somewhere around 4000.

Arafats own Police force is 30,000-40,000. If he wanted to do it, he would.

And how do you explain the miliary wing of Fatah, Arafats OWN party using homocide bombers? How can you possibly think he is Not involved if he gives the Money? >>





30,000-40,000??? i highly disagree with this statement.


and it isn't fatah who is sending the bombers, it is a group of people who broke off of fatah and call themselves the al aqsa martyrs brigade. and why do you keep saying that arafat is giving them money? do you think that because al qaeda was in afghanistan, that the taliban was giving them money? no. you don't think that Usama bin laden has enough money to fund them? and what are you talking about money for anyway? you are talking about home made bombs that they are using. you act like they are walking around with some high-tech high cost terror weapons.

 

[zayened]

and if they did have an adequate police force, how are they going to operate with intelligence and all the organization needed when they have no solid central government?

 

[Texmaster]

<< Well, if you want to make this personal .... >>




What do you call a response like this: GESTURE OF PEACE MY ARSE!!! ?

Controlled? LOL



<< I knew a few Texans when working in Audit with GTE. I can remember sitting in a lounge in a very nice hotel sippin' a cold one when one of you texas intellectuals shouts out to a very nice looking woman passing by: "There's one mighty fine looking heifer!".

What a pick up line!

I don't recall the jerks' name. You ever do any audit work Tex? >>



Just because you are not brave enough to respond to my response I gave you on my last posting doesn't make you funny, just gutless.

 

[zayened]

i'm real sorry, i wish i can stay and conversate some more, but for now i have to go to work. i'll be back around 10:30 to reply to any unanswered posts (or those which have been replied to carelessly).

 

[Texmaster]

<< 30,000-40,000??? i highly disagree with this statement. >>



Its absoluetly true. But just for fun, how many do you think he has?

Oh, and here's a link from hardly a pro-Israelie source confirming the number.

During the hey-day of the peace process, Mr Arafat ruled with the help of an impressive array of security and intelligence agencies consisting of about 40,000 personnel.

These include the powerful Preventive Security intelligence agency, Military Intelligence, National Security (for routine security operations), Special Security (monitoring opposition groups), and the elite Force-17 presidential guard.

There is also the General Intelligence organisation (countering internal subversion), the military, civilian and maritime police, the last of which has branches Gaza and the (landlocked) West Bank.

Some of these forces have now turned the light weapons they were given under the Israeli-Palestinian peace accords against Israeli targets, and have lost dozens of men in Israeli Army attacks.


Link



<< and it isn't fatah who is sending the bombers, it is a group of people who broke off of fatah and call themselves the al aqsa martyrs brigade. >>




You need to read more. Fatah has sent sucide bombers during this latest conflict.



<< and why do you keep saying that arafat is giving them money? >>



Because he IS.



<< do you think that because al qaeda was in afghanistan, that the taliban was giving them money? no. you don't think that Usama bin laden has enough money to fund them? and what are you talking about money for anyway? you are talking about home made bombs that they are using. you act like they are walking around with some high-tech high cost terror weapons. >>



Then where do they get the money? Where would they receive funding if not for Arafat?

I suppose the 50 TONS of explosives Iran got caught sending into Palestine Arafat didn't know about either?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Collateral Damage makes them as bad? How is that? If their target is not civilians but some civilians die, thats just war IMO. >>

OK, let's say that some of those Suicide Bombs killed Israeli Soldiers along with Civilians. Would the civilian deaths just be collateral damage?

Fsck them both. As long as Israel insists on keeping those settlements and Jeruselum they aren't serious about peace.In fact having Israeli Citizens in those settlements is putting them in harms way and any of their deaths is as much Israels doing as it is those who kill them.

As long as the Palestinians keep supporting Suicide Bombings they aren't seriuous about Peace. Until they actively hunt down those who are responsible for these boimbings (even if they are just scapegoats giving Arafat an out) they are animals. We should tell both groups of Animals to pull their representives from their respective embassies until they decide to act like Human Beings. Meanwhile all monetary support for both packs of Hyena's should stop immediately.

 

[ThePresence]

<<

<< Collateral Damage makes them as bad? How is that? If their target is not civilians but some civilians die, thats just war IMO. >>



OK, let's say that some of those Suicide Bombs killed Israeli Soldiers along with Civilians. Would the civilian deaths just be collateral damage? >>



No. Because the civillians that were killed ARE being targeted. If they killed some soldiers too, that doesnt change the fact that the civillians that were killed were targeted.

 

[308nato]

<< and if they did have an adequate police force, how are they going to operate with intelligence and all the organization needed when they have no solid central government? >>



What would constitute a "solid central govt."? Would that be an elected govt. or just Arafat in charge (?) once again with officials of his choosing? Why would that be any different than what they have now?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Because the civillians that were killed ARE being targeted. If they killed some soldiers too, that doesnt change the fact that the civillians that were killed were targeted. >>

So as long as it was a military target it's ok to kill many civilians