i invite you to have an intelligent convo about middle east

[zayened]

ok...
Israeli's want Arafat to hand over some "detained" prisoners before they let up off his compound, but there is a bilatteral agreement (sp?) between them that as long as they are detained, they need not be handed over to Israel. So why does Sharon get to DEMAND that they be handed over before he let's up off the compound?



Or am I missing something???



I'M OFF TO WORK UNTIL 10:30. I'll BE BACK TO CONVERSATE SOME MORE

 

[Murphyrulez]

I'm pretty sure that sitting in your townhouse in Chicago, 10,000 miles away from Israel, that you are missing an awful lot of what is going on.

 

[Tripleshot]

>>>I'm pretty sure that sitting in your townhouse in Chicago, 10,000 miles away from Israel, that you are missing an awful lot of what is going on. <<<


Word up on that.

 

[StageLeft]

<< I'm pretty sure that sitting in your townhouse in Chicago, 10,000 miles away from Israel, that you are missing an awful lot of what is going on. >>

LOL

 

[Tripleshot]

In all fairness, here is a link that might help you get some background on the what,why, and wherefor of the middle east problems.

Mid East: Centuries of Conflict

 

[incallisto]

<< ok...
Israeli's want Arafat to hand over some "detained" prisoners before they let up off his compound, but there is a bilatteral agreement (sp?) between them that as long as they are detained, they need not be handed over to Israel. So why does Sharon get to DEMAND that they be handed over before he let's up off the compound?
Or am I missing something??? >>



You can't negotiate or make deals with terrorists like Arafat. Have you been watching CNN? It seems everyone points to his Nobel Peace Prize every time he is mentioned. Like Netanyahu said (and I paraphrase), "That was a low point for the award". I agree. They were getting desperate when they selected Arafat for the prize. He was a terrorist, is a terrorist, and it appears will always be a terrorist. Not to mention, his word is worth as much as dehydrated water.

 

[zayened]

<< I'm pretty sure that sitting in your townhouse in Chicago, 10,000 miles away from Israel, that you are missing an awful lot of what is going on. >>




well, actually, since my mom's whole side of the family still lives in a town right beside Ramallah (about a 5 minute drive), and since I practically lived there the whole '96 summer and '97 summer, I don't believe that I missed too much of what is going on

Also, if you had been watching CNN, you would have seen/heard during Powell's follow up speech that America is giving the PLO an extra 300 some million dollars to help rebuild what was destroyed, that is on top of the 80 million dollars a year that America ALREADY gives them. I would watch out who you are calling a terrorist because you are saying that we are funding terrorist organizations (America, that is) by giving the PLO (your so-called terrorists) this money :Q.

What I don't understand is that if America can still see Arafat as the legitimate leader of the PLO, why can't Israel?

 

[Nitemare]

He's the leader of the PLO granted....but is he in charge. Do Palestinian citizens do as he orders, umm...no

How many times has he came out and condemned suicide bombings, yet within a 24 hour period, yup you guessed it BOOM!

He is a mere figurehead.

 

[b0mbrman]

<< He's the leader of the PLO granted....but is he in charge. Do Palestinian citizens do as he orders, umm...no

How many times has he came out and condemned suicide bombings, yet within a 24 hour period, yup you guessed it BOOM! >>


Yeah, if the Palestinians were indifferent to Israel, I'm almost certain there'd be a hot 'n' heavy civil war going down

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< He is a mere figurehead. >>


That was also my opinion in the past. Now I am not so sure.

 

[zayened]

<< He's the leader of the PLO granted....but is he in charge. Do Palestinian citizens do as he orders, umm...no

How many times has he came out and condemned suicide bombings, yet within a 24 hour period, yup you guessed it BOOM!

He is a mere figurehead. >>




ok....look at it like this...

back in '93 or whenever it was, Arafat and Rabeen (former asassinated PM of Israel), were SO close to making peace, that Rabeen was asassinated, not by a Palestinian, but BY AN ISRAELI! why do you think that Israeli killed him? it is because he (and a whole group of Israeli's which he was part of) didn't want to make peace with the Palestinians. Yup, believe it or not, there are leftist Israeli's who actually don't want peace with Palestinians, but would rather see them wiped out. That is the same way these groups of Palestinians feel. True, maybe at this time there isn't any form of real violence comming from any Israeli groups, but that is because Israel is nowhere near peace with Palestine. The way the Palestinians are being treated with the occupation and settlements and what nots, the Palestinian leftists feel they have nothing to lose. It is certain groups that just don't want peace, that doesn't mean that any normal everyday Palestinian doesn't want peace.


edit - i didn't sleep last night, so if i sound like i'm rambling, please ask me to explain myself instead of assuming i said something that i didn't say

 

[Laguna]

There may be many Israeli's out there who don't want peace, but I don't see any Israeli civilians strapping on bombs...

 

[Lucky]

<< There may be many Israeli's out there who don't want peace, but I don't see any Israeli civilians strapping on bombs... >>




they dont need to. They let the IDF blow the sh*t out of them with US funded tanks, missiles, and helicopters.

 

[zayened]

<< There may be many Israeli's out there who don't want peace, but I don't see any Israeli civilians strapping on bombs... >>




<< True, maybe at this time there isn't any form of real violence comming from any Israeli groups, but that is because Israel is nowhere near peace with Palestine >>



like i posted, right now, the Israeli military is doing enough to the palestinians where leftists feel they don't need to do any more

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< There may be many Israeli's out there who don't want peace, but I don't see any Israeli civilians strapping on bombs... >>




they dont need to. They let the IDF blow the sh*t out of them with US funded tanks, missiles, and helicopters. >>



They blow the sh*t out of the people who are targeting their civilians with homocide bombers.

 

[zayened]

come on guys, i don't want this to turn into any finger-pointing. Lucky, i understand you might be trying to help, but your going about it all wrong.

 

[zayened]

<<

<<

<< There may be many Israeli's out there who don't want peace, but I don't see any Israeli civilians strapping on bombs... >>




they dont need to. They let the IDF blow the sh*t out of them with US funded tanks, missiles, and helicopters. >>



They blow the sh*t out of the people who are targeting their civilians with homocide bombers. >>



Texmaster, your not understanding. don't listen to lucky. what i meant was that the israeli's feel that the occupation and the settlements that are being built are doing enough harm to the palestinians so they don't need to do anything. but like i said earlier, once they just about came to peace, the PM was asassinated just so that this wouldn't happen. When they need to, the Israeli's will go to extremes too.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Texmaster, your not understanding. don't listen to lucky. what i meant was that the israeli's feel that the occupation and the settlements that are being built are doing enough harm to the palestinians so they don't need to do anything. >>




I understood perfectly what Lucky was saying and I wasn't replying to your quote. I was replying to his.



<< but like i said earlier, once they just about came to peace, the PM was asassinated just so that this wouldn't happen. When they need to, the Israeli's will go to extremes too. >>



They were ready for peace 4 weeks ago when Israelies stopped ALL hostile action and ALL retaliation for 2 WEEKS and Arafat's response was to increase the number of homocide bombers.

The Israelis held out their hand a month ago and were slapped. That is the reason for the incursion and its completely justified.

 

[zayened]

<< They were ready for peace 4 weeks ago when Israelies stopped ALL hostile action and ALL retaliation for 2 WEEKS and Arafat's response was to increase the number of homocide bombers.
>>




Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though. And your response will be well then Arafat and the PLO should go after these people...how are they to do this when Israel has the upper hand (as they have had ever since the occupation) on the west bank and Gazza? How can you have a functional government when there is this kind of occupation?

as you read in my 2nd post, I went on vacation to Ramallah from June to August both in '96 and '97. I saw how it is. You can't travel more than 2 miles before you are stopped and harassed by the Israeli Millitary at their checkpoints which are INSIDE THE WEST BANK.

 

[JoeBaD]

Sharon's an arsehole too.

.and ask the Brits if he wasn't a terrorist too.

The fact of the matter is that Israel does not want peace if it means giving up its conquests.

Sharon's demands of 7 days of non-violence before negotiations was a sham to avoid negotiations. If he really wanted a lasting peace he would have embraced the Saudi's proposal of a couple of weeks ago instead of attached unrealistic conditions.

Its a shame so many of my tax dollars go over there to support both worthless sides.

 

[Texmaster]

<< They were ready for peace 4 weeks ago when Israelies stopped ALL hostile action and ALL retaliation for 2 WEEKS and Arafat's response was to increase the number of homocide bombers.
>>






<< Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though. >>



And where do terrorists groups like Fatah get their money? Arafat. To say he didn't know is the height of ignorance since his very government gives them the money.



<< And your response will be well then Arafat and the PLO should go after these people >>



Never assume. You are wrong.



<< ..how are they to do this when Israel has the upper hand (as they have had ever since the occupation) on the west bank and Gazza? How can you have a functional government when there is this kind of occupation? >>



Easy, you Stop giving them MONEY. You need MONEY to buy bombs. Arafat supplies them with the Money.



<< as you read in my 2nd post, I went on vacation to Ramallah from June to August both in '96 and '97. I saw how it is. You can't travel more than 2 miles before you are stopped and harassed by the Israeli Millitary at their checkpoints which are INSIDE THE WEST BANK. >>



I don't need to travel to Ramallah to know where terrorists get their money.

Ever stop to ask WHY they are "harassing" you? Could it be that homocide bombers sometimes ATTACK military checkpoints and blow themselves up? Hmmmm.

Think before you type.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Sharon's an arsehole too.

.and ask the Brits if he wasn't a terrorist too.

The fact of the matter is that Israel does not want peace if it means giving up its conquests.

Sharon's demands of 7 days of non-violence before negotiations was a sham to avoid negotiations. If he really wanted a lasting peace he would have embraced the Saudi's proposal of a couple of weeks ago instead of attached unrealistic conditions.

Its a shame so many of my tax dollars go over there to support both worthless sides. >>



I'll say it again.

2 Weeks Sharon did not retaliate and stayed quiet for 2 weeks as a gesture of peace. During that time Arafat sent even more homocide Bombers.

Those are the FACTS.

 

[zayened]

<< << And your response will be well then Arafat and the PLO should go after these people >>



Never assume. You are wrong.

>>



ok then. let's move back a few posts...without any assumptions.



<< They were ready for peace 4 weeks ago when Israelies stopped ALL hostile action and ALL retaliation for 2 WEEKS and Arafat's response was to increase the number of homocide bombers.
>>






Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though.

 

[StageLeft]

<< They were ready for peace 4 weeks ago when Israelies stopped ALL hostile action and ALL retaliation for 2 WEEKS and Arafat's response was to increase the number of homocide bombers.
---
Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though. >>

Let's pretend for a moment it's true - because it could be. If this is the case we are agreed that Arafat has no say/power in the matter, right? And thus if that is the case how can a cease fire exist? Either he has power in which case he can stop it - meaning he has already condoned terrorist actions if he has power - or he doesn't have power, in which case he can't stop it. So who can? Israeli military moving in. The fact is talk was getting NOWHERE except more blown up israeli cafes. If Arafat has no power he is a waste of time. If he has power it means he has condoned these bombings and should be removed.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Arafat never gave that response, the leaders of the terrorist groups might have though. >>




And I gave you the response to that post. Look up.