I have no HEAT part II...If I'm selling something, would you pay me first ??

[CTrain]

Originally posted by: DaWhim
if you are selling with no trading history, you better be a lifer or elite first.

So you would rate someone higher because of # of posts(less time) as oppose to somone whos been here alot longer but less posts ??

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Hossenfeffer

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

It's all a system of trust. As the private trades are an ENTIRELY different thing than purchasing an item at the store, there is some security in knowing you're dealing with someone who will hopefully respect you and trade in a good manner, putting some thought into things like packaging, communication, etc. It's all about making things as smooth as possible and has absolutely nothing to do with "favoriing" the experienced traders.

It has nothing to do with what? Let me get this straight. So Poopa with his 4 evals wants to sell a mobo, and a longtime trader with his 300 evals tells me that I should ship my stuff first, and he'll inspect, test, and then he'll send his payment. Who's got the transaction running in his favor? Poopa, or the 300 eval guy? If you(or those who agree with you, and I'm sure there's many) don't see things this way, then you might as well put me on your do-not-trade list now because you're never going to receive anything from me until you pay and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Yeah, the 300 eval guy has done his deals, he's done much more to prove he's gonna honor his stuff. He's paid his dues as it were. Look, you don't have to sell to him. That's all well and fine. Find another person for Poopa to sell his mobo to. Can always try and negotiate as well. There's inherent value in the system. Perfect? Hell no. But it lowers the risk level for the established trader and, because the newer trader is dealing with an established trader, it lowers the risk level for him as well. Provided people use the heatware system by giving clear, honest evaluations as well as following up on traders prior to seeing up a trade, things run a bit smoother, less things go haywire, etc.

I don't blame people for getting bent out of shape about it. At first glance, most people take the "hell no, if you want this stuff, you pay me". That's fine. The point is that allowing the heatware system to have some value helps alleviate tensions all around, well at least once you can shift your mindset a bit in that you're not dealing with an actual business, but rather a private individual.

I'm also not going to be completely naive and say that every high-heat trader will refrain from abusing the system. I personally haven't run across that and have been trading for around 5 years. Having the heatware there provides a network of information about previous trades to help break down the first barrier to good trading: communication.

 

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Hossenfeffer

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

It's all a system of trust. As the private trades are an ENTIRELY different thing than purchasing an item at the store, there is some security in knowing you're dealing with someone who will hopefully respect you and trade in a good manner, putting some thought into things like packaging, communication, etc. It's all about making things as smooth as possible and has absolutely nothing to do with "favoriing" the experienced traders.

It has nothing to do with what? Let me get this straight. So Poopa with his 4 evals wants to sell a mobo, and a longtime trader with his 300 evals tells me that I should ship my stuff first, and he'll inspect, test, and then he'll send his payment. Who's got the transaction running in his favor? Poopa, or the 300 eval guy? If you(or those who agree with you, and I'm sure there's many) don't see things this way, then you might as well put me on your do-not-trade list now because you're never going to receive anything from me until you pay and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

who has the bigger risk though? certainly the guy buying from someone with only 4 heat. you may not like it, but that's the way things work here and it's a pretty good system.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: Yossarian
hossenfeffer you are my heat twin, 74 each.

"There can be only one!!!!"

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

Then buy everywhere else.

This works for us..and no, it's not "some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them."

Tell me..aside from avoiding the possibility of a scam, how does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Sure..you pay 3 days later. Big deal.

 

[DaWhim]

Originally posted by: CTrain

Originally posted by: DaWhim
if you are selling with no trading history, you better be a lifer or elite first.

So you would rate someone higher because of # of posts(less time) as oppose to somone whos been here alot longer but less posts ??

posts = dedication to the forum. try getting 10k posts, it is not easy(even if you nef).

 

[poopaskoopa]

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Hossenfeffer

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

It's all a system of trust. As the private trades are an ENTIRELY different thing than purchasing an item at the store, there is some security in knowing you're dealing with someone who will hopefully respect you and trade in a good manner, putting some thought into things like packaging, communication, etc. It's all about making things as smooth as possible and has absolutely nothing to do with "favoriing" the experienced traders.

It has nothing to do with what? Let me get this straight. So Poopa with his 4 evals wants to sell a mobo, and a longtime trader with his 300 evals tells me that I should ship my stuff first, and he'll inspect, test, and then he'll send his payment. Who's got the transaction running in his favor? Poopa, or the 300 eval guy? If you(or those who agree with you, and I'm sure there's many) don't see things this way, then you might as well put me on your do-not-trade list now because you're never going to receive anything from me until you pay and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

who has the bigger risk though? certainly the guy buying from someone with only 4 heat. you may not like it, but that's the way things work here and it's a pretty good system.

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

On the subject of # of posts, I can't say that I would often factor that into my decision on trading with someone or not. Granted, if you've got 20,000 some odd posts, there's a good chance other users will have contact info for you and/or can vouch for you, or you've shown a relative committment (read: addiction) to the forums and are not likely to bail. It's all about keeping the risk levels of the trades as low as possible, thereby helping to prevent crazy situations down the road with people yelling "So and so is a troll!!!!" after 2 days or something.

 

[CTrain]

Damm, I didn't realize how untrustworthy I am.
Almost 2.5 to 1 people would not pay me first if I'm trying to sell something.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Hossenfeffer

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

It's all a system of trust. As the private trades are an ENTIRELY different thing than purchasing an item at the store, there is some security in knowing you're dealing with someone who will hopefully respect you and trade in a good manner, putting some thought into things like packaging, communication, etc. It's all about making things as smooth as possible and has absolutely nothing to do with "favoriing" the experienced traders.

It has nothing to do with what? Let me get this straight. So Poopa with his 4 evals wants to sell a mobo, and a longtime trader with his 300 evals tells me that I should ship my stuff first, and he'll inspect, test, and then he'll send his payment. Who's got the transaction running in his favor? Poopa, or the 300 eval guy? If you(or those who agree with you, and I'm sure there's many) don't see things this way, then you might as well put me on your do-not-trade list now because you're never going to receive anything from me until you pay and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

who has the bigger risk though? certainly the guy buying from someone with only 4 heat. you may not like it, but that's the way things work here and it's a pretty good system.

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

For the seller, the risk is yes, $40. The risk is greatly lessened by the fact that he's chosen to deal with a very well established trader.

For the buyer, the risk is yes, $40. The risk is that the new trader, with little to lose as far as a "trading" reputation goes, will not send the item or will send the item in poor packaging. By arranging for a ship first, pay later, the buyer's risk is lessened.

 

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

wrong. if I am buying a $40 mobo from someone with 300 evals I essentially have 0 risk.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: CTrain
Damm, I didn't realize how untrustworthy I am.
Almost 2.5 to 1 people would not pay me first if I'm trying to sell something.

This is a common mistake, and I don't blame you for feeling this way. It's hard not to have the kneejerk reaction and take things personally.

Your being trustworthy or not is not at all the issue, primarily because we have zero way to verify it other than to take your word. Now, your word might be golden, but how do we know that? We don't want to risk our money/goods anymore than you. Hence, the value of heatware. It helps provide the backup to your "word".

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Hossenfeffer

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

It's all a system of trust. As the private trades are an ENTIRELY different thing than purchasing an item at the store, there is some security in knowing you're dealing with someone who will hopefully respect you and trade in a good manner, putting some thought into things like packaging, communication, etc. It's all about making things as smooth as possible and has absolutely nothing to do with "favoriing" the experienced traders.

It has nothing to do with what? Let me get this straight. So Poopa with his 4 evals wants to sell a mobo, and a longtime trader with his 300 evals tells me that I should ship my stuff first, and he'll inspect, test, and then he'll send his payment. Who's got the transaction running in his favor? Poopa, or the 300 eval guy? If you(or those who agree with you, and I'm sure there's many) don't see things this way, then you might as well put me on your do-not-trade list now because you're never going to receive anything from me until you pay and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

who has the bigger risk though? certainly the guy buying from someone with only 4 heat. you may not like it, but that's the way things work here and it's a pretty good system.

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

Let's put it this way.

"sup3rpcsales1989" with 0 heat is selling a $40 motherboard. She/he/it wants you to pay first.

Johnnie (with an insane amount of heat) is selling the same motherboard for $40. He wants you to pay first.

Who would you buy from?

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

wrong. if I am buying a $40 mobo from someone with 300 evals I essentially have 0 risk.

:thumbsup:

I wouldn't hesitate to loan Paypal to an established fellow trader..I've been helped out by a few awesome traders myself. Heatware is definitely not perfect, but I much prefer it over eBay feedback..or no feedback at all.

 

[CTrain]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: CTrain

Originally posted by: DaWhim
if you are selling with no trading history, you better be a lifer or elite first.

So you would rate someone higher because of # of posts(less time) as oppose to somone whos been here alot longer but less posts ??

posts = dedication to the forum. try getting 10k posts, it is not easy(even if you nef).

I don't know man....you would trust someone more with 10K/posts in 1 yr VS. 3K/posts in 4 yrs ??

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: CTrain

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: CTrain

Originally posted by: DaWhim
if you are selling with no trading history, you better be a lifer or elite first.

So you would rate someone higher because of # of posts(less time) as oppose to somone whos been here alot longer but less posts ??

posts = dedication to the forum. try getting 10k posts, it is not easy(even if you nef).

I don't know man....you would trust someone more with 10K/posts in 1 yr VS. 3K/posts in 4 yrs ??

Since they'd probably be paying/shipping first either way, I don't think it would matter to most...

 

[poopaskoopa]

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

Then buy everywhere else.

This works for us..and no, it's not "some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them."

Tell me..aside from avoiding the possibility of a scam, how does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Sure..you pay 3 days later. Big deal.

And I do buy from everywhere else(that's why I don't have 300 evals now, isn't it?), although I don't avoid FS/T. I've been trained to go to newegg.com first. How does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Well let's see. Well he got the stuff first. The risk is all of sudden on the seller. And if the seller has more heatware evals, then he is sure to expect to be paid before shipping. If this stuff wasn't a big deal, then the buyer always pays first, regardless of who's got more evals, but it IS a big enough deal to some, so you have this system.

 

[poopaskoopa]

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

wrong. if I am buying a $40 mobo from someone with 300 evals I essentially have 0 risk.

You place trust in this system and I do not. You see 0 risk and I see myself risking $40 to some guy I don't know. It works for you, but it doesn't do anything for me.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

Then buy everywhere else.

This works for us..and no, it's not "some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them."

Tell me..aside from avoiding the possibility of a scam, how does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Sure..you pay 3 days later. Big deal.

And I do buy from everywhere else(that's why I don't have 300 evals now, isn't it?), although I don't avoid FS/T. I've been trained to go to newegg.com first. How does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Well let's see. Well he got the stuff first. The risk is all of sudden on the seller. And if the seller has more heatware evals, then he is sure to expect to be paid before shipping. If this stuff wasn't a big deal, then the buyer always pays first, regardless of who's got more evals, but it IS a big enough deal to some, so you have this system.

The risk is greatly, greatly reduced by the fact that the new trader is dealing with a very established trader.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

wrong. if I am buying a $40 mobo from someone with 300 evals I essentially have 0 risk.

You place trust in this system and I do not. You see 0 risk and I see myself risking $40 to some guy I don't know. It works for you, but it doesn't do anything for me.

That's pretty clear.

What you do know with the person with high heat is that there are dozens, if not hundreds of people who DO know him, so you effectively "know" him by proxy. (Ok, that made so little sense, it hurt... ) The system is proven, or I wouldn't be such an ardent supporter.

With private trades, you have to deal in trust. The heatware system provides a way to allay many of your fears.

 

[poopaskoopa]

Let's put it this way.

"sup3rpcsales1989" with 0 heat is selling a $40 motherboard. She/he/it wants you to pay first.

Johnnie (with an insane amount of heat) is selling the same motherboard for $40. He wants you to pay first.

Who would you buy from?

That's a matter of choosing the vendor. You just asked me whether I'd choose tigerdirect.com or newegg.com, and I'd choose newegg, but even if I did choose tigerdirect, I'd expect to pay first. If I had twice the # of heat evals as Johnnie, I'd expect to pay first. If Johnnie had 20 evals, the 1989 guy had 0 heat, and I had 300 heat evals, I'd still expect to pay first.

edit: I was responding to CadetLee.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

Then buy everywhere else.

This works for us..and no, it's not "some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them."

Tell me..aside from avoiding the possibility of a scam, how does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Sure..you pay 3 days later. Big deal.

And I do buy from everywhere else(that's why I don't have 300 evals now, isn't it?), although I don't avoid FS/T. I've been trained to go to newegg.com first. How does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Well let's see. Well he got the stuff first. The risk is all of sudden on the seller. And if the seller has more heatware evals, then he is sure to expect to be paid before shipping. If this stuff wasn't a big deal, then the buyer always pays first, regardless of who's got more evals, but it IS a big enough deal to some, so you have this system.

In most cases, payment is made first. If you have 40 heat, I'm not going to ask you to ship first, even though I have more..if you have 10 heat, then I will.

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: Yossarian

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

If the motherboard is worth $40, then the risk is $40. That $40 is worth $40 to Poopa if he's paying first, and $40 is also worth $40 to the 300 eval guy if he's paying first.

wrong. if I am buying a $40 mobo from someone with 300 evals I essentially have 0 risk.

You place trust in this system and I do not. You see 0 risk and I see myself risking $40 to some guy I don't know. It works for you, but it doesn't do anything for me.

The main difference is that hundreds of other people have taken the same risk you are..and they weren't burned. You can't say the same for a heat-less seller.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
Let's put it this way.

"sup3rpcsales1989" with 0 heat is selling a $40 motherboard. She/he/it wants you to pay first.

Johnnie (with an insane amount of heat) is selling the same motherboard for $40. He wants you to pay first.

Who would you buy from?

That's a matter of choosing the vendor. You just asked me whether I'd choose tigerdirect.com or newegg.com, and I'd choose newegg, but even if I did choose tigerdirect, I'd expect to pay first. If I had twice the # of heat evals as Johnnie, I'd expect to pay first. If Johnnie had 20 evals, the 1989 guy had 0 heat, and I had 300 heat evals, I'd still expect to pay first.

Your argument is invalid, since both TigerDirect and Newegg are established retailers.

Assuming the prices were the same, would you buy from a brand new online computer store that you had no knowledge of -- or Newegg?

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Let's put it this way.

"sup3rpcsales1989" with 0 heat is selling a $40 motherboard. She/he/it wants you to pay first.

Johnnie (with an insane amount of heat) is selling the same motherboard for $40. He wants you to pay first.

Who would you buy from?

That's a matter of choosing the vendor. You just asked me whether I'd choose tigerdirect.com or newegg.com, and I'd choose newegg, but even if I did choose tigerdirect, I'd expect to pay first. If I had twice the # of heat evals as Johnnie, I'd expect to pay first. If Johnnie had 20 evals, the 1989 guy had 0 heat, and I had 300 heat evals, I'd still expect to pay first.

edit: I was responding to CadetLee.

Yeah, we're not talking about merchants and businesses here, we're talking private inviduals. As CadetLee mentioned, tigerdirect and newegg would both technically qualify as "experienced traders".

 

[shimsham]

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
I certainly don't think HEAT is worthless, but this you-ship-first sh!t based on the # of evals has always seemed silly to me. That's probably some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them. And to their credit, they have gotten most of the board members to buy into it, so congrats to them. Even if I'm wrong on all this, it'd still remain a pretty stupid idea because everywhere else, you're expected to pay for the merchandise before you can receive it.

Then buy everywhere else.

This works for us..and no, it's not "some lunacy conjured up by the seasoned traders who just wanted to create a system that favors them."

Tell me..aside from avoiding the possibility of a scam, how does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Sure..you pay 3 days later. Big deal.

And I do buy from everywhere else(that's why I don't have 300 evals now, isn't it?), although I don't avoid FS/T. I've been trained to go to newegg.com first. How does paying upon receipt help the buyer? Well let's see. Well he got the stuff first. The risk is all of sudden on the seller. And if the seller has more heatware evals, then he is sure to expect to be paid before shipping. If this stuff wasn't a big deal, then the buyer always pays first, regardless of who's got more evals, but it IS a big enough deal to some, so you have this system.

the buyer would risk(lose) his ability to trade here and eslewhere if they for some reason decided not to pay for functioning hardware and bust out as a troll.

i think youll find a very small % of high heat traders are obnoxious about demanding shipping first, which should be statistically expected when dealing with humans. total # of evals isnt the end all in making the decision. most traders (myself included) go by length of trading history, communications, willingness to provide personal info such as phone numbers, attitude, and number of evals.

i shipped first to build a rep. i now stand at 96 evals, and would ship first to a trader such as johnnie if thats what he requested thats just the way it works.

 

[poopaskoopa]

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
Let's put it this way.

"sup3rpcsales1989" with 0 heat is selling a $40 motherboard. She/he/it wants you to pay first.

Johnnie (with an insane amount of heat) is selling the same motherboard for $40. He wants you to pay first.

Who would you buy from?

That's a matter of choosing the vendor. You just asked me whether I'd choose tigerdirect.com or newegg.com, and I'd choose newegg, but even if I did choose tigerdirect, I'd expect to pay first. If I had twice the # of heat evals as Johnnie, I'd expect to pay first. If Johnnie had 20 evals, the 1989 guy had 0 heat, and I had 300 heat evals, I'd still expect to pay first.

Your argument is invalid, since both TigerDirect and Newegg are established retailers.

Assuming the prices were the same, would you buy from a brand new online computer store that you had no knowledge of -- or Newegg?

Again, you're arguing the selection of from whom to buy, but the issue is how the transaction is completed, and who dictates the terms.