I have a billion dollar idea.

[mikeymikec]

WTH is a quid?

Slang for a British one pound coin.

I'm reminded of that time that I went through customs at New York and the staff asked me whether it was "real money" I had been carrying in my pocket.

 

[dullard]

You edited it after the fact to be purposely disingenuous and accuse him of the same? Wtf?

Sho'Nuff wasn't clear of my post's intention, so yes I edited it. I will always edit my posts to make things more clear and better for everyone on ATOT.

My post was about the total costs of ownership of a patent (which is why I covered a broad range: US patents, international patents, and the cost of actually using the patent), and not about filing costs. When Sho'Nuff thought it was just about filing costs, I fixed my post to clarify. If you or Sho'Nuff have even more edits for me to make, I'll do it. I'm here to help the OP and ATOT readers.

Sho'Nuff should do the same. The total cost of ownership is not $8k. Even the subset cost for filing a high-end phone patent is not $8k. The average patent cost is far, far higher once you include all necessary costs. People who get into the patent arena need to know what the total costs might realistically be. Sho'Nuff can post his estimates. Sho'Nuff can help me correct my original post even further. Or Sho'Nuff can keep misleading about the total costs of owning a patent and pretend that we are only talking about filing costs. The OP does not need to know just one subset of patent costs. The OP needs to know about the whole cost of entering this field.

Apple and Samsung. Focus on those companies first. There are others, but the high-end market is really going into the direction of two main manufacturers. Doing a deal with Apple and Samsung will not cost $8k. Or the opposite of fighting against them with a patent lawsuit certainly won't cost $8k. I won't even get into the laughable concept that filing in just Germany would help in high-end phone patents.

 

[momeNt]

Sho'Nuff wasn't clear of my post's intention, so yes I edited it. I will always edit my posts to make things more clear and better for everyone on ATOT.

My post was about the total costs of ownership of a patent (which is why I covered a broad range: US patents, international patents, and the cost of actually using the patent), and not about filing costs. When Sho'Nuff thought it was just about filing costs, I fixed my post to clarify. If you or Sho'Nuff have even more edits for me to make, I'll do it. I'm here to help the OP and ATOT readers.

Sho'Nuff should do the same. The total cost of ownership is not $8k. Even the subset cost for filing a high-end phone patent is not $8k. The average patent cost is far, far higher once you include all necessary costs. People who get into the patent arena need to know what the total costs might realistically be. Sho'Nuff can post his estimates. Sho'Nuff can help me correct my original post even further. Or Sho'Nuff can keep misleading about the total costs of owning a patent and pretend that we are only talking about filing costs. The OP does not need to know just one subset of patent costs. The OP needs to know about the whole cost of entering this field.

Apple and Samsung. Focus on those companies first. There are others, but the high-end market is really going into the direction of two main manufacturers. Doing a deal with Apple and Samsung will not cost $8k. Or the opposite of fighting against them with a patent lawsuit certainly won't cost $8k. I won't even get into the laughable concept that filing in just Germany would help in high-end phone patents.

You are fighting a strawman here, he was very specific with what he said, while you were not. Apologies in this case are preferable to an attempt at justification. Even a "whoops" works.

 

[dullard]

You are fighting a strawman here, he was very specific with what he said, while you were not. Apologies in this case are preferable to an attempt at justification. Even a "whoops" works.

Him saying Whoops won't help the thread or the OP. I'm trying to get his first post in this thread edited to be correct and helpful for other readers. Even his backtrack when he realized the context of the thread and started bumping up his numbers wasn't very helpful as he keeps excluding prosecution costs.

I agree that Sho'Nuff misread my post into thinking it was just about filing costs. I edited to make it clearer. My fault for not being clear enough, yes. But now it is his turn to post actual, correct numbers. In his opinion, what is the true ballpark cost of protecting this billion dollar idea?

 

[Jeeebus]

o actually use a patent though you need to sue someone who violates it. That will probably cost a minimum of $1 million. You need to pay to play in the patent game.

I'm sorry, but your argument and backpedaling is idiotic. If it is your position that anyone who files for and intends to use a patent should be prepared to spend $1 million or just forget about it, then you truly deserve the ridicule you are getting in this thread. Yes - when Apple sues Samsung for violating a patent, it's going to cost both parties $5 million +. If you believe that is the rule rather than the exception, then there's really no hope reasoning with you.

This argument is idiotic because you guys appear to agree on the average/normal costs for filing and maintaining a patent in the USA and beyond. You're turning this into an absurd exercise by assuming that every patent owner needs to sue to protect their patent and that such lawsuit will probably cost a minimum of $1 million. Using your logic, nobody should invent anything, enter into any business agreement, get behind the wheel of a car, etc. because doing so will ultimately result in millions of dollars of fees. The only person being disingenuous in this thread is you.

** Oh, and if you're right that all patent litigation is "probably" going to cost a minimum of $1 million, I damn sure fucked up by not going into patent law.

 

[dullard]

I'm sorry, but your argument and backpedaling is idiotic. If it is your position that anyone who files for and intends to use a patent should be prepared to spend $1 million or just forget about it, then you truly deserve the ridicule you are getting in this thread. Yes - when Apple sues Samsung for violating a patent, it's going to cost both parties $5 million +. If you believe that is the rule rather than the exception, then there's really no hope reasoning with you.

This argument is idiotic because you guys appear to agree on the average/normal costs for filing and maintaining a patent in the USA and beyond. You're turning this into an absurd exercise by assuming that every patent owner needs to sue to protect their patent and that such lawsuit will probably cost a minimum of $1 million. Using your logic, nobody should invent anything, enter into any business agreement, get behind the wheel of a car, etc. because doing so will ultimately result in millions of dollars of fees. The only person being disingenuous in this thread is you.

** Oh, and if you're right that all patent litigation is "probably" going to cost a minimum of $1 million, I damn sure fucked up by not going into patent law.

No, we don't agree. I posted a $15k (to get in the game) to $1M range (if you need to sue for a high-end phone patent). He posted $8k. Is that what you honestly call being in agreement?

I'll accept better numbers if he wants to post them. He references a 2016 AIPLA economic survey that I can't find online: https://www.aipla.org/learningcenter/library/books/econsurvey/2017EconomicSurvey/Pages/default.aspx

But just saying "Your average costs are off too.", "foreign filings...don’t come anywhere near $100,000", and "But they are not so expensive as your post would lead others to believe." is just plain incorrect, misleading, and can get people into serious financial trouble if they take his post as being truthful.

I already posted several links to US patent costs. How about my $100k number for foreign patents?
https://www.upcounsel.com/pct-patent-cost

In 2003, the United States General Accounting Office (now named the Government Accountability Office) states that it could cost anywhere from $160,000 to $330,000 to obtain and keep a 20 year foreign patent in the following countries: France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Sweden, the United Kingdom, Canada, Japan, and South Korea.

I fail to see how they "don’t come anywhere near $100,000". I can keep posting link after link if you wish.

For the $1m number:
http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/02/05/managing-costs-of-patent-litigation/id=34808/

According to the American Intellectual Property Law Association, the cost of an average patent lawsuit, where $1 million to $25 million is at risk, is $1.6 million through the end of discovery and $2.8 million through final disposition.

Again, if anything, I was too low in my numbers. Not "But they are not so expensive as your post would lead others to believe."

I worked at a company that closed and a dozen people lost their jobs because the owner underestimated patent costs. Deals were made based on patents being issued (obtaining those patents cost far more than the owner was prepared for) and a patent lawsuit was filed (also which cost far more than expected). The 20+ year old small company folded even though it won a settlement (it was too little too late). I lost my job. I'm sorry that it is being disingenuous to warn others of the true patent ownership costs. But I'm not going to back down from trying to protect people. I'll edit my posts to include better numbers if someone wants to offer true patent ownership cost numbers, but I won't back down to pretending that $8k will do it. This is a game to Sho'Nuff to catch me out on a minor definition (I used the word "file" once in a multi-paragraph post so he pretends that my whole post was just on filing). It is my livelihood to me.