I have a billion dollar idea.

[Skunk-Works]

If someone steals your idea before you can get it to market and make money , you have to pay all the legal fees out of pocket.

Not if it's patent pending. That's basically a warning to others saying that the idea is in the process of a full fledged patent. You don't need to get it to market to be protected.

 

[Skunk-Works]

Also - in most countries for a claimed invention to be patentable, it needs to be both novel AND non-obvious (non-obviousness in non-U.S. countries is usually called inventive step, but the inquiry is similar). The novelty element is easy, as the claimed invention only needs to differ from the prior art in some (perhaps minor) way. Non-obviousness is where the rubber meets the road.

An idea I have has actually been patented in more than one way by various people through my Google patent searches. Very interesting to see the same idea, but all done differently. My idea is yet different, but achieves the same result. Personally, I think it does it better. The other ideas were way weird or overly complex.

You need to pay to play in the patent game.

And that's why so many patents are all from companies.

 

[Skunk-Works]

I don't see the "Invest" button. If you truly have a revolutionary idea, put me down for a few quid.

WTH is a quid?

 

[Sho'Nuff]

You can patent an idea as long as it is specific, novel, and non-obvious. An idea to "cure cancer" is not specific since it does not say how you will cure cancer. That idea is also not novel as many people have already described their wish to "cure cancer".

But, an idea to cure cancer by ingesting chemical X while singing song Y and rolling down a hill in a modified oak barrel from whiskey production is specific, novel, and non-obvious. You don't have to actually have cured cancer that way to patent it. You do not need a working prototype. But you need to be specific enough with examples, descriptions, and probably drawings if you want your patent to stick.

That said, a simple patent will cost probably $15,000 to file in the US and $100k+ if you start adding other countries. To actually use a patent though you need to sue someone who violates it. That will probably cost a minimum of $1 million. You need to pay to play in the patent game.

There is no “specificity” requirement in US patent law (or any other jurisdiction of note). There is an enablement requirement in the US - but that is not the same thing as a specificity requirement.

Your average costs are off too. According to the 2016 AIPLA economic survey, the average cost of preparing and filing a straightforward application in the US is about $8000. You are right that foreign filings can increase costs dramatically, but filing costs usually don’t come anywhere near $100,000 because filings are targeted to specific countries, not every country in the world. A European national stage filing typically costs about $4-5,000 to file. A chinese national phase app costs about a $1500 to file, but translation costs can increase the cost of preparing the application significantly.

Patents are not cheap. But they are not so expensive as your post would lead others to believe.

 

[dullard]

There is no “specificity” requirement in US patent law (or any other jurisdiction of note). There is an enablement requirement in the US - but that is not the same thing as a specificity requirement.

Your average costs are off too. According to the 2016 AIPLA economic survey, the average cost of preparing and filing a straightforward application in the US is about $8000. You are right that foreign filings can increase costs dramatically, but filing costs usually don’t come anywhere near $100,000 because filings are targeted to specific countries, not every country in the world. A European national stage filing typically costs about $4-5,000 to file. A chinese national phase app costs about a $1500 to file, but translation costs can increase the cost of preparing the application significantly.

Patents are not cheap. But they are not so expensive as your post would lead others to believe.

No legal requirement to be specific, but you won't both (a) get it granted and (b) successfully prosecute it if it isn't specific. A patent that you can't prosecute is essentially worthless paper. So you might as well start with it being specific otherwise you just wasted your time and money.

You are being highly misleading with the $8,000 number. Maintenance fees for standard patents are $1,600 at 3.5 years, $3,600 at 7.5 years, and $7,400 at 11.5 years. Then add in the search fees, examination fees, and issue fees ($600, $720, $960 for utility patents) and any other fees that might be needed in the examining process. That is $14,880 right there if you do it all on your own without an attorney and without any complications. Sorry that I rounded to $15k.

Sure, being a small/micro entity the fees are lower. But then he'll almost certainly need to hire a patent attorney/agent. That is maybe where your $8,000 comes in. A patent agent may save a bit of money. But finding a good one is hard, especially in technology areas.

Also name one useful patent international strategy where you only target one European country. You'll likely want at least a half dozen, each with their fees and translations. It might not be exactly $100,000 but that is a rough number that you should expect after it is all said and done (all costs included including maintenance fees).

The last thing I want to do is make someone think that with just a few thousand dollars that they can have a useful patent. It could bankrupt them faster than they know it to keep a useful patent in force. This is especially true in a crowded field like smartphones. Not many patent attorneys can properly navigate the 250,000+ existing active smartphone patents (as of Oct 2012) and only charge you a few thousand dollars.

 

[snoopy7548]

Let me guess... the screen is on both sides?!

 

[renz20003]

Not if it's patent pending. That's basically a warning to others saying that the idea is in the process of a full fledged patent. You don't need to get it to market to be protected.

But wouldn't you have to pay legal fees to defend it if a company stole it?

 

[Sho'Nuff]

No legal requirement to be specific, but you won't both (a) get it granted and (b) successfully prosecute it if it isn't specific. A patent that you can't prosecute is essentially worthless paper. So you might as well start with it being specific otherwise you just wasted your time and money.

You are being highly misleading with the $8,000 number. Maintenance fees for standard patents are $1,600 at 3.5 years, $3,600 at 7.5 years, and $7,400 at 11.5 years. Then add in the search fees, examination fees, and issue fees ($600, $720, $960 for utility patents) and any other fees that might be needed in the examining process. That is $14,880 right there if you do it all on your own without an attorney and without any complications. Sorry that I rounded to $15k.

Your prior post provided quotes for FILING, not total prosecution and maintenance fees. The $8000 number is not misleading. It is an accurate representation of the cost of preparing and filing a patent application of minimal complexity, as reflected by responses solicited from hundreds of patent firms by the leading IP organization in the U.S.

As for the specificity requirement - I was merely commenting on the legal inaccuracy of your prior post. Your comments re: being overly vague have some merit, but not in the context of a discussion of what is and is not legally required to file a patent application. Moreover, the most common patent claim strategy is to seek claims of broad, medium, and narrow scope. To do that the specification should ideally include language that support such claims, i.e., which presents the invention in broad, medium, and narrow terms.

Re: useful EP strategies - there is no one size fits all strategy and where to file will depend on the technology and the business in question. That said, one can easily envision a scenario where seeking patent protection in a single EP country would be useful. For example, Germany is a huge manufacturer and exporter of machines. A German company might find a German patent (and only a German patent) useful, as it would prevent other German companies from making and exporting their technology. Sure - the products could be produced in other EP countries. But many German companies are set up such that their entire manufacturing base is in Germany. So a single German application may be considered quite useful to that company. It all depends on context.

Another useful limited country EP filing strategy would be where the technology in question concerns a regulated product that is only permitted and/or present in certain parts of the EPO. For example, France and a handful of other countries contain the highest concentration of nuclear plants in the EPO. It might be useful to limit the filing of a patent application drawn to nuclear technology to only the countries in which those plants are present, because that is where the market for the technology is located.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that people need to understand the costs of pursuing patent protection up front. That is precisely why I have a discussion with all of my clients re: the cost of pursuing patent protection. Even my largest clients are cost conscious, and cost is a major factor when they are deciding where to file.

As for smartphone patents - I actually have a lot of experience preparing and prosecuting patent applications in that technology area - ranging from updates to the 4G LTE standard, to 5G technology, to mobile device cryptography, to others. You are right to say that smart phone technology is a difficult and crowded area. But your quotes before were not for a preparing and filing an application for a complicated technology . You provided quotes for a filing a basic patent, which you later explain tacitly include costs associated with prosecuting, maintaining, etc. the application and any patent resulting therefrom. FWIW, in my experience the cost of preparing and filing a relatively complicated smart phone patent application in the U.S. is not too much higher than what I quoted above. Usually they roll in right around ~$12,000 ($10,000 preparation, $2,000 filing). Filing corresponding EP, CN, JP cases typically costs ~$15,000 ($5000 for each country), inclusive of foreign agent fees. Note again - those numbers are not inclusive of prosecution costs.

Look - we are on the same page for the most part. I am just nitpicking the hell out of you because you are playing fast and loose with your terminology - which is irksome to me because I practice patent law. I know you mean well, but if you want to discuss legal issues you need to use specific and accurate terminology. Else all you are doing is asking for someone knowledgeable in the area to shoot holes in your statements. Cheers.

 

[nakedfrog]

surely, your clients understand the value of a much smaller anus phone? Come on man, we can work out a lucrative distribution deal. We'll both make bank.

Obviously if it's 15% smaller, it's easier to fit two up there, so you can keep your standard line and still have a burner handy.
FYI: I'm available for product testing.

 

[dullard]

Your comments re: being overly vague have some merit, but not in the context of a discussion of what is and is not legally required to file a patent application.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that people need to understand the costs of pursuing patent protection up front. That is precisely why I have a discussion with all of my clients re: the cost of pursuing patent protection.

Note again - those numbers are not inclusive of prosecution costs.

Look - we are on the same page for the most part. I am just nitpicking the hell out of you because you are playing fast and loose with your terminology - which is irksome to me because I practice patent law. I know you mean well, but if you want to discuss legal issues you need to use specific and accurate terminology.

I know you mean well, but, in the context of this thread, ignoring the true costs of the patent and focusing on nitpicking is borderline unethical and borderline negligent. Do in this thread what you say you do with your clients: be honest that the true cost of a owning useful, valuable high-end phone patent is not and will not be $8,000. Nor will it be $12,000. Please edit your post* to clarify that you are ignoring the bulk of the patent costs. The true costs include preparation, filing, maintenance, prosecution, etc. If you are going to nitpick about one word and ignore the whole context of the thread (valuable phone patent) and my post (true costs of owning a patent), then at least be honest about the full costs. Many costs such as prosecution costs will vary and you cannot give a specific number. That is why I used words like "probably". But, you can at the very least include all the known fixed costs.

*Specifically the part where you say "Patents are not cheap. But they are not so expensive as your post would lead others to believe." as you too are playing fast and loose with the terminology. Your whole post is about filing fees but your conclusion is about total patent costs. Whereas my post was mostly about the total patent costs and you pretend it was only about filing fees.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Woah is it really 8k to file a patent? yikes. I knew it was expensive but I thought it was more like $500-$1,000 expensive and not 8k expensive. If I made a product I'd be happy to make 8k from selling it. Seems the system is designed to only cater to the really big corporations and screw the small guy.

IMO there needs to be some kind of free open source patent, where you apply for it and it would be like a normal patent, except it simply secures the idea as being open so nobody can patent it and stop you from using it. This would be a way for small guys to still be able to manufacture something, while protecting themselves from someone else patenting their idea and then suing them. These patents would need to be broad in the sense that it would void any detail about the product as being patentable. The issue with the current system is that you can patent the most obscure things like shapes and colours so even if you do patent your product you won't think of every little possible detail that someone else can patent and then force you to redesign/recall your product.

Maybe make it work like copyright, you can technically self copyright something, you just need to mail it to yourself.

 

[dullard]

Woah is it really 8k to file a patent? yikes. I knew it was expensive but I thought it was more like $500-$1,000 expensive and not 8k expensive. If I made a product I'd be happy to make 8k from selling it. Seems the system is designed to only cater to the really big corporations and screw the small guy.

IMO there needs to be some kind of free open source patent, where you apply for it and it would be like a normal patent, except it simply secures the idea as being open so nobody can patent it and stop you from using it. This would be a way for small guys to still be able to manufacture something, while protecting themselves from someone else patenting their idea and then suing them.

Maybe make it work like copyright, you can technically self copyright something, you just need to mail it to yourself.

Since you are from Canada, here are the Canada patent fees (these do not include legal assistance):
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/wr00142.html

US patent fees (these do not include legal assistance):
https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/fees-and-payment/uspto-fee-schedule

Average US patent cost for a small entity when you include average costs for everything: $60,525
http://www.blueironip.com/what-do-patents-actually-cost/

If the system works properly, then no one can patent an idea of an existing product of a competitor because the patent would not be novel. Someone could try it though and the system does not always work properly. But it shouldn't happen.

But yes, the system is best suited for the big corporations. File fast, file early, file often. You want a picket fence of protections. One patent might not be sufficient. So take those typical costs above for one patent and then realize that you may need far more than just that one patent. Small entities often cannot afford to play in that game.

 

[Red Squirrel]

That's the thing for 1 product you may need 10 or even 100 patents depending how granular you want to get. And all too often stuff that already exists gets patented so the system does not seem to do much research to ensure it's novel. I guess there might be some official places you can publish your plans to make sure it does not get patented?

Me personally I don't care if someone else uses my idea - I just want to be left alone and be allowed to use/sell it and not get sued for it because someone who has more money decides they want to use my idea and does not want me to.

 

[zinfamous]

Obviously if it's 15% smaller, it's easier to fit two up there, so you can keep your standard line and still have a burner handy.
FYI: I'm available for product testing.

Well, I don't really know you but I think I like you enough to not willingly subject you to our current 80%.....65% survival rate. Maybe when we update the current prototype? Apparently something is going on with these batteries that we purchased for pennies on the gross.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

I know you mean well, but, in the context of this thread, ignoring the true costs of the patent and focusing on nitpicking is borderline unethical and borderline negligent.

Seriously? You went there?

In all my years practicing patent law, I have never, ever had anyone question my integrity as a lawyer. So with all due respect, you can go pound sand. And by pound sand, I mean that you can go violate yourself with a giant stone phallus covered in broken glass.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Woah is it really 8k to file a patent? yikes. I knew it was expensive but I thought it was more like $500-$1,000 expensive and not 8k expensive. If I made a product I'd be happy to make 8k from selling it. Seems the system is designed to only cater to the really big corporations and screw the small guy.

IMO there needs to be some kind of free open source patent, where you apply for it and it would be like a normal patent, except it simply secures the idea as being open so nobody can patent it and stop you from using it. This would be a way for small guys to still be able to manufacture something, while protecting themselves from someone else patenting their idea and then suing them. These patents would need to be broad in the sense that it would void any detail about the product as being patentable. The issue with the current system is that you can patent the most obscure things like shapes and colours so even if you do patent your product you won't think of every little possible detail that someone else can patent and then force you to redesign/recall your product.

Maybe make it work like copyright, you can technically self copyright something, you just need to mail it to yourself.

It is not 8K to file an application. Its 8K on average to prepare and file an application of minimal complexity. That means 6k in lawyer fees and 2K in filing fees (assuming large entity status applies).

There used to be something called a statutory invention registration, which was similar to what you are thinking re: an open source patent. They were cheap, easy to file, and much easier to grant that a full blown U.S. patent. But they went the way of the dodo with the passage of the america invests act. That said, you can accomplish much the same goal by simply publishing enabling disclosures of inventions on the web.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

That's the thing for 1 product you may need 10 or even 100 patents depending how granular you want to get. And all too often stuff that already exists gets patented so the system does not seem to do much research to ensure it's novel. I guess there might be some official places you can publish your plans to make sure it does not get patented?

http://www.defensivepublications.org/

 

[Red Squirrel]

http://www.defensivepublications.org/

Interesting, good to know that something like this indeed exists.

 

[dullard]

Seriously? You went there?

In all my years practicing patent law, I have never, ever had anyone question my integrity as a lawyer. So with all due respect, you can go pound sand. And by pound sand, I mean that you can go violate yourself with a giant stone phallus covered in broken glass.

I call a spade a spade.

If any of the patent lawyers that I've worked with ever said a patent would cost just just $8000, I would have walked right out the door and never looked back. Your post was one of the shadiest posts that I've seen on ATOT especially considering that you of all people know that the true costs of patent ownership are far higher than $8000. You can go ahead and weasel your way out with some minor technicality. Or you can edit your post to reflect the true costs of owning patents. Your choice on this will reflect who is correct in your ethics.

It would be like a car dealership saying on a forum that a car costs just $99--while ignoring that the $99 is just the downpayment and that there are tens of thousands of more costs to come.

 

[momeNt]

I call a spade a spade.

If any of the patent lawyers that I've worked with ever said a patent would cost just just $8000, I would have walked right out the door and never looked back. Your post was one of the shadiest posts that I've seen on ATOT especially considering that you of all people know that the true costs of patents are far higher than $8000. You can go ahead and weasel your way out with some minor technicality. Or you can edit your post to reflect the true costs of owning patents. Your choice on this will reflect who is correct in your ethics.

It would be like a car dealership saying on a forum that a car costs just $99--while ignoring that the $99 is just the downpayment and that there are tens of thousands of more costs to come.

Even still, after he bolded what he said, and further explained it. You are STILL going to misrepresent what he said? You are the one being disingenuous.

If anything. He is saying how much the car costs to purchase, which is similar to "preparing and filing". You are saying, well wait a minute I live in New York and gas costs $5 a gallon and I'm also going to need to lease a parking space which is another $500 a month. That is completely disingenuous of you to say that it ONLY COSTS this much and not tell me about the rest of the other costs you specifically didn't mention because you only mentioned a specific cost!!!!!

Are you an accountant or something?

 

[dullard]

Even still, after he bolded what he said, and further explained it. You are STILL going to misrepresent what he said? You are the one being disingenuous.

If anything. He is saying how much the car costs to purchase, which is similar to "preparing and filing". You are saying, well wait a minute I live in New York and gas costs $5 a gallon and I'm also going to need to lease a parking space which is another $500 a month. That is completely disingenuous of you to say that it ONLY COSTS this much and not tell me about the rest of the other costs you specifically didn't mention because you only mentioned a specific cost!!!!!

Are you an accountant or something?

My original post covered the likely ranges of costs for a phone patent. From the lowest ($15,000 for just filing and maintaining a US patent), through medium costs ($100,000 filing internationally), to high costs (~$1M if you actually have to defend your patent in court). These are not made up numbers. They are pretty typical costs of patent ownership. If you don't like my links above, here is another one mentioning two of my numbers that I posted exactly ($15,000 US and $100,000 international) http://www.invents.com/how-much-does-a-patent-cost/

Sho'Nuff comes in and says, no, I'm completely wrong because just one minor aspect of patent filing might be $8k (forgetting the field of the topic in the thread and completely misrepresenting the intent of my post--the possible range of costs involved). In which way is his post helping the OP? In which way is my post even wrong? It isn't. If the OP started down the patent process thinking it would be $8k and it turned out to be the median $60k (see http://www.blueironip.com/what-do-patents-actually-cost/ that I linked earlier in this thread), it could ruin him. I'm trying to be honest and helpful. Sho'Nuff is trying to twist my words.

I'm an engineer (note: not a professionally licensed engineer) who has several patents. I'm not a patent attorney nor an accountant. The first business that I worked at went out of business mostly because of underestimated patent costs.

 

[dainthomas]

That sucks. I guess the world can suck it then. I don't want anyone to have it if I can't make money off of it.

That's how I felt when I perfected cold fusion. If energy is free how can I make money off of it? Plus Big Oil would have me killed.

 

[momeNt]

My original post covered the likely ranges of costs for a phone patent. From the lowest ($15,000 for just filing and maintaining a US patent), through medium costs ($100,000 filing internationally), to high costs (~$1M if you actually have to defend your patent in court). These are not made up numbers. They are pretty typical costs of patent ownership. If you don't like my links above, here is another one mentioning two of my numbers that I posted exactly ($15,000 US and $100,000 international) http://www.invents.com/how-much-does-a-patent-cost/

Sho'Nuff comes in and says, no, I'm completely wrong because just one minor aspect of patent filing might be $8k (forgetting the field of the topic in the thread and completely misrepresenting the intent of my post--the possible range of costs involved). In which way is his post helping the OP? In which way is my post even wrong? It isn't. If the OP started down the patent process thinking it would be $8k and it turned out to be the median $60k (see http://www.blueironip.com/what-do-patents-actually-cost/ that I linked earlier in this thread), it could ruin him. I'm trying to be honest and helpful. Sho'Nuff is trying to twist my words.

I'm an engineer (note: not a professionally licensed engineer) who has several patents. I'm not a patent attorney nor an accountant. The first business that I worked at went out of business mostly because of underestimated patent costs.

You edited your response after he replied. You said $15,000 to file, as evidenced by his quote of you.

Your edited in AND MAINTAIN

you attack the fact he corrected you for the cost of filing. Tell him he's forgetting about maintenance costs. When in fact he simply responded to exactly what you said.

You edited it after the fact to be purposely disingenuous and accuse him of the same? Wtf?

 

[sportage]

You must have a detailed drawing to get a patent. And that can take a long time to get a patent. That is why we see so many PATENT PENDING's.
And you can design an idea, it is recorder for all to see, then just one person can come along and make one little alteration to your design then patent your design with that slight alteration under their name.
Take baby disposable diapers. Just replace the elastic with Velcro and there you are. Their idea, your tweak, resulting in your new patented invention patent under your name, not theirs.

 

[tommo123]

WTH is a quid?

a £ (british pound). i assume it's like an american referring to a dollar as a "buck" or whatevs