I hate doctors.

[JS80]

Originally posted by: interchange
Ok. A lot of doctors make some serious $$, but physician salary adjusted for inflation is going down. They go through 4 extra years of school with $150k debt (many have much more). Then they get paid $45k/year for 4 years training working 80 hours a week. Then they get to repay that debt while working typically >50 hours a week, getting paid a good salary but having to offset that with malpractice and a ton of cover your ass paperwork. Then insurance companies dictate that they won't reimburse for more than 15 minutes spent on a patient. Not 15 minutes with the actual patient mind you. 15 minutes with the patient + paperwork + consulting other doctors + researching, etc. Then the insurances is incredibly stingy about reimbursing so they have to find every conceivable diagnosis angle & prove they've tried all other therapies, etc. Then they get reimbursed $20 for a $150 bill (even though your statement of benefits shows your insurance paid $150). So a lot of doctors offset all this by offering additional services and products that you either don't really need or are way overpriced. Or they become whores to big pharm, pushing drugs that are overpriced and don't often offer the patient any advantages over other drugs/therapies.

Bottom line: People recognize they are getting screwed in healthcare. People associate their healthcare with their doctor. The doctor gets blamed for people being unsatisfied with their healthcare.

That is such bullshit. Doctors do not get their fair share of blame. The ones that actually help lower healthcare costs and saves lives are the ones getting blamed (insurance cos and pharmas).

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: Imp
I'll keep this in mind when I go get my left knee checked; it's been hurting slightly when I sit/stnd still. Bike for 7Km no problem, walk 8km no problem, sit still here come the pain.

Hah, I have the same problem. My right knee hurts when I sit still, but when I ride my bike 15mi or when I walk to campus it feels fine.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: interchange
Ok. A lot of doctors make some serious $$, but physician salary adjusted for inflation is going down. They go through 4 extra years of school with $150k debt (many have much more). Then they get paid $45k/year for 4 years training working 80 hours a week. Then they get to repay that debt while working typically >50 hours a week, getting paid a good salary but having to offset that with malpractice and a ton of cover your ass paperwork. Then insurance companies dictate that they won't reimburse for more than 15 minutes spent on a patient. Not 15 minutes with the actual patient mind you. 15 minutes with the patient + paperwork + consulting other doctors + researching, etc. Then the insurances is incredibly stingy about reimbursing so they have to find every conceivable diagnosis angle & prove they've tried all other therapies, etc. Then they get reimbursed $20 for a $150 bill (even though your statement of benefits shows your insurance paid $150). So a lot of doctors offset all this by offering additional services and products that you either don't really need or are way overpriced. Or they become whores to big pharm, pushing drugs that are overpriced and don't often offer the patient any advantages over other drugs/therapies.

Bottom line: People recognize they are getting screwed in healthcare. People associate their healthcare with their doctor. The doctor gets blamed for people being unsatisfied with their healthcare.

That is such bullshit. Doctors do not get their fair share of blame. The ones that actually help lower healthcare costs and saves lives are the ones getting blamed (insurance cos and pharmas).

no its NOT BS the only reason there are lower health care costs is because the HMOs Pharms and Insurance cos are fucking doctors over

that 60% reduced reimbursement rate is not a joke, 20 years ago Docs were making 60% more for doing the same ammnt of work,

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: interchange
Ok. A lot of doctors make some serious $$, but physician salary adjusted for inflation is going down. They go through 4 extra years of school with $150k debt (many have much more). Then they get paid $45k/year for 4 years training working 80 hours a week. Then they get to repay that debt while working typically >50 hours a week, getting paid a good salary but having to offset that with malpractice and a ton of cover your ass paperwork. Then insurance companies dictate that they won't reimburse for more than 15 minutes spent on a patient. Not 15 minutes with the actual patient mind you. 15 minutes with the patient + paperwork + consulting other doctors + researching, etc. Then the insurances is incredibly stingy about reimbursing so they have to find every conceivable diagnosis angle & prove they've tried all other therapies, etc. Then they get reimbursed $20 for a $150 bill (even though your statement of benefits shows your insurance paid $150). So a lot of doctors offset all this by offering additional services and products that you either don't really need or are way overpriced. Or they become whores to big pharm, pushing drugs that are overpriced and don't often offer the patient any advantages over other drugs/therapies.

Bottom line: People recognize they are getting screwed in healthcare. People associate their healthcare with their doctor. The doctor gets blamed for people being unsatisfied with their healthcare.

That is such bullshit. Doctors do not get their fair share of blame. The ones that actually help lower healthcare costs and saves lives are the ones getting blamed (insurance cos and pharmas).

You can keep selling this BS but no one is buying. Doctors pay is not keeping up with infation yet drug makers make a higher % profit then even oil companies. Insruance companies keep raising rates while making billions every year.

In the end the ones that get hurt the most are doctors and patients while Insurance companies and drug makers are rolling in the money.

 

[drinkmorejava]

Pharms have absolutely nothing to do with "fucking doctors over." If anything, the good ones get paid extremely well for their consulting and professional advice to companies. You might feel you're getting fucked over--another argument completely--but doctors benefit greatly, most of the time legitimately and ethically, from their relationship with drug producers.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Pharms have absolutely nothing to do with "fucking doctors over." If anything, the good ones get paid extremely well for their consulting and professional advice to companies. You might feel you're getting fucked over--another argument completely--but doctors benefit greatly, most of the time legitimately and ethically, from their relationship with drug producers.

Drug makers give doctors gifts, trips to "seminars", and so forth. The expect them to push THEIR drugs and/or their name brand and not the cheaper same generic.

<-- Worked at a couple drug makers.

 

[40Hands]

I made the mistake one time of going to the doctors when I had a bubble of fluid under the skin on my knee. She looked at it for less then 5 minutes and wrote me an RX for Naproxen (same ingredient that's in Aleve) and I get a bill later on for $160 bucks. What a fucking crock of shit that is. This is with my insurance but having insurance doesn't mean shit these days anyways.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: 40Hands
I made the mistake one time of going to the doctors when I had a bubble of fluid under the skin on my knee. She looked at it for less then 5 minutes and wrote me an RX for Naproxen (same ingredient that's in Aleve) and I get a bill later on for $160 bucks. What a fucking crock of shit that is. This is with my insurance but having insurance doesn't mean shit these days anyways.

did you know what was wrong?

 

[FuryofFive]

heh, the doctor i went to didnt feel he needed to listen. i told him i was headaches for a matter of weeks, flashing in my eyes as if i had been flashed by a camera, and he attributed it to my sinuses....
i still have this headache almost daily maybe skipping a day or.... spoke to nurse more than i spoke to doctor..then prescribed me some medicine for my head. that all it made me do was fall asleep faster... which didnt work for the first night. had to goto a 2nd doctor who then said probaly wasnt my sinuses but something else...wanted to schedule me for a catscan, never called me back concerning it, then my head started feeling better and about a 10 days later they called to schedule catscan... lovely timing

 

[drinkmorejava]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Pharms have absolutely nothing to do with "fucking doctors over." If anything, the good ones get paid extremely well for their consulting and professional advice to companies. You might feel you're getting fucked over--another argument completely--but doctors benefit greatly, most of the time legitimately and ethically, from their relationship with drug producers.

Drug makers give doctors gifts, trips to "seminars", and so forth. The expect them to push THEIR drugs and/or their name brand and not the cheaper same generic.

<-- Worked at a couple drug makers.

My father is an exec at one, and I have grown up with many sales reps and managers as family friends. In addition, I have met with some of the premier doctors and researchers in the US for dinner, as well as socializing in their own homes.

If you actually worked in sales or some department that specifically dealt with this, you would realize that the dynamics and ethical concerns are much more complicated than this.

Doctors, doctor's associations, etc all run as businesses and the boundaries between patient responsibility, doctor ethics, and corporate guidance are always blurred.

However, with your specific argument, it goes mostly like this.

Doctors getting the most private compensation are by and far the geniuses of our time providing their skill and personal experience to drug companies so they can better conduct and their own studies and improve their products

All other doctors (most) receive relatively inexpensive gifts in order to convince them to hear about a company's drug instead of another?s, the doctor has very little invested commercial interest in any one of these drugs that they hear about on a daily basis. They are not receiving checks for thousands of dollars every month for choosing specific drugs. This is not to be confused with corporate reimbursement programs where a doctor will receive compensation for drugs that are not fully covered by insurance, thus allowing them to provide them at lower cost.

Doctors are paid for consulting, sitting on boards, managing trials, running lectures. All of which are extremely important in the design, production, and distribution of drugs and are requiring of highly skilled doctors .They are not paid for meeting quotas on selling certain drugs.

As for patient responsibility, doctors are there to help provide for your healthcare, not be your baby sitter. It is your responsibility to ask if there is a generic if one is not offered, or if there are comparable drugs, just as it is your responsibility to seek a second opinion if you are not comfortable with a treatment or diagnosis.

Of course, there are doctors and sales reps who are not acting ethically, and it's impossible to defend an entire industry, however, the large majority are looking out for patient care.

In many cases, recent regulations put in place to increase transparency are leading to disturbing results--it might even be hilarious if it didn't deal with patient care

Take, for example, limits on doctors who have received any corporate compensation (almost all) only being able to sit on one FDA drug advisory panel a year. Guess what's happening, all of the great doctors have reached their limit and the panels approving drugs are now run by local GPs with little experience in the drug's area and generally little interest in the topic. If you?re knowledgeable on a topic and have a chance to listen in on one, they?re all public, some of the questions being asked these days are pretty laughable.

In another case, Minnesota, doctors can only receive compensation up to $50 from drug companies. The logical conclusion, that is showing itself to be true, is that the best doctors are no longer giving their time to companies seeking their help. Along the same lines, all gifts must be cataloged and made available to the public. Not necessarily a bad idea until you learn that a) the drug companies are being forced to pay for the system...I'll let you draw you own conclusions to what that means for prices b) uneducated patients looking up doctors' compensation will view those receiving the most with disgust, when, in reality, they are the doctors you would want to trust you life with.

So basically, that?s my view. The easiest way to protect yourself, though, is to ask you?re doctors questions about your care.

 

[Slew Foot]

Getting reimbursed plane trips for conferences is a crock of bull, pharm companies havent been allowed to do that for the last few years. The most Ive ever gotten was a dinner at Ruth Chris' to listen to a lecture, but I turned it down since I'd rather be home with my family.

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Pharms have absolutely nothing to do with "fucking doctors over." If anything, the good ones get paid extremely well for their consulting and professional advice to companies. You might feel you're getting fucked over--another argument completely--but doctors benefit greatly, most of the time legitimately and ethically, from their relationship with drug producers.

Drug makers give doctors gifts, trips to "seminars", and so forth. The expect them to push THEIR drugs and/or their name brand and not the cheaper same generic.

<-- Worked at a couple drug makers.

Not anymore.......

 

[eits]

doctors don't insinuate they're going to just give you something. they assume that you are there to be treated and pay for the treatment and services.

inflating the hell out of the price of something you can buy at any drugstore is a retarded doctor business model that i hate... some professors try to teach us how to do that to "be successful" and get formal complaints about them regarding ethics and subject matter (you don't teach marketing and business management when you're supposed to be teaching a course about how to identify and treat and rehab athletic injuries).

 

[maziwanka]

return the fucking thing. that asshole doctor

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: waggy
a doctor will NEVER give you a brace. whenever i need one i always ask if insurance will cover it.

if no then i ask for the name/style etc so i can buy it at the store

exactly. it's the patient's responsibility to make sure they're not being billed for something they don't want to pay for if they have to. it's also the doctor's responsibility to be ethical and try not to dupe patients into buying something they never were told they'd be forced to pay for.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
You want professional help, but you arent willing to pay professional fees. :roll:

Next time your body aches, simply dont go to the doctor, rely on your own medical education and diagnose the problem yourself, and remedy yourself the appropriate treatment.

wow, good response.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: edro

Originally posted by: krunchykrome
You want professional help, but you arent willing to pay professional fees. :roll:
Next time your body aches, simply dont go to the doctor, rely on your own medical education and diagnose the problem yourself, and remedy yourself the appropriate treatment.

I'll stick with WebMD.
I don't mind paying for their expertise, but their expertise should not carry over into equipment.

you can't diagnose with webmd if you need to take plain films, cts, mris, chem screen, ua, etc.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: funkymatt
I have never had a doctor diagnose something I didnt know I already had. I've also had more wrong diagnoses than right, but I dont go to the doctor all that often. examples:

Bladder infection coupled with kidney stones (ouch!); diagnosed as clamidia.
sinus infection; opthamologist couldnt figure it out, they wanted to cauterize my tear duct.
Broken toe; diagnosed and fixed correctly.

I think i need to find better doctors.

that's because lots of medical doctors will go along with what the patient thinks they have because it saves them time and it makes them look more favorable by the patient. the reason you had so many misdiagnoses were because you were a dumbass and didn't know what the fuck you had and the doctor just went along with what you said you had.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: uberman
I'm reading this book now. I find it pretty truthful. It might help in dealing with doctors. Check it out for free at the library.

Book - How Doctors Think

that's one of the books we are assigned to read in one of my classes

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: interchange
Ok. A lot of doctors make some serious $$, but physician salary adjusted for inflation is going down. They go through 4 extra years of school with $150k debt (many have much more). Then they get paid $45k/year for 4 years training working 80 hours a week. Then they get to repay that debt while working typically >50 hours a week, getting paid a good salary but having to offset that with malpractice and a ton of cover your ass paperwork. Then insurance companies dictate that they won't reimburse for more than 15 minutes spent on a patient. Not 15 minutes with the actual patient mind you. 15 minutes with the patient + paperwork + consulting other doctors + researching, etc. Then the insurances is incredibly stingy about reimbursing so they have to find every conceivable diagnosis angle & prove they've tried all other therapies, etc. Then they get reimbursed $20 for a $150 bill (even though your statement of benefits shows your insurance paid $150). So a lot of doctors offset all this by offering additional services and products that you either don't really need or are way overpriced. Or they become whores to big pharm, pushing drugs that are overpriced and don't often offer the patient any advantages over other drugs/therapies.

Bottom line: People recognize they are getting screwed in healthcare. People associate their healthcare with their doctor. The doctor gets blamed for people being unsatisfied with their healthcare.

That is such bullshit. Doctors do not get their fair share of blame. The ones that actually help lower healthcare costs and saves lives are the ones getting blamed (insurance cos and pharmas).

UH WHAT?!!?!? hahahahahahahahaha

stfu. please.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: interchange
Ok. A lot of doctors make some serious $$, but physician salary adjusted for inflation is going down. They go through 4 extra years of school with $150k debt (many have much more). Then they get paid $45k/year for 4 years training working 80 hours a week. Then they get to repay that debt while working typically >50 hours a week, getting paid a good salary but having to offset that with malpractice and a ton of cover your ass paperwork. Then insurance companies dictate that they won't reimburse for more than 15 minutes spent on a patient. Not 15 minutes with the actual patient mind you. 15 minutes with the patient + paperwork + consulting other doctors + researching, etc. Then the insurances is incredibly stingy about reimbursing so they have to find every conceivable diagnosis angle & prove they've tried all other therapies, etc. Then they get reimbursed $20 for a $150 bill (even though your statement of benefits shows your insurance paid $150). So a lot of doctors offset all this by offering additional services and products that you either don't really need or are way overpriced. Or they become whores to big pharm, pushing drugs that are overpriced and don't often offer the patient any advantages over other drugs/therapies.

Bottom line: People recognize they are getting screwed in healthcare. People associate their healthcare with their doctor. The doctor gets blamed for people being unsatisfied with their healthcare.

That is such bullshit. Doctors do not get their fair share of blame. The ones that actually help lower healthcare costs and saves lives are the ones getting blamed (insurance cos and pharmas).

no its NOT BS the only reason there are lower health care costs is because the HMOs Pharms and Insurance cos are fucking doctors over

that 60% reduced reimbursement rate is not a joke, 20 years ago Docs were making 60% more for doing the same ammnt of work,

truth.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Pharms have absolutely nothing to do with "fucking doctors over." If anything, the good ones get paid extremely well for their consulting and professional advice to companies. You might feel you're getting fucked over--another argument completely--but doctors benefit greatly, most of the time legitimately and ethically, from their relationship with drug producers.

Drug makers give doctors gifts, trips to "seminars", and so forth. The expect them to push THEIR drugs and/or their name brand and not the cheaper same generic.

<-- Worked at a couple drug makers.

exactly true. doctors are pressured into writing scripts for patients EXCLUSIVELY for the drug that the drug rep came and gave them pens, samples, and vacation opportunities for.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: FuryofFive
heh, the doctor i went to didnt feel he needed to listen. i told him i was headaches for a matter of weeks, flashing in my eyes as if i had been flashed by a camera, and he attributed it to my sinuses....
i still have this headache almost daily maybe skipping a day or.... spoke to nurse more than i spoke to doctor..then prescribed me some medicine for my head. that all it made me do was fall asleep faster... which didnt work for the first night. had to goto a 2nd doctor who then said probaly wasnt my sinuses but something else...wanted to schedule me for a catscan, never called me back concerning it, then my head started feeling better and about a 10 days later they called to schedule catscan... lovely timing

see a chiropractor about that

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Getting reimbursed plane trips for conferences is a crock of bull, pharm companies havent been allowed to do that for the last few years. The most Ive ever gotten was a dinner at Ruth Chris' to listen to a lecture, but I turned it down since I'd rather be home with my family.

it still happens. they receive a kickback.

 

[Punter]

Originally posted by: edro[/quote]
"I'll stick with WebMD.
I don't mind paying for their expertise, but their expertise should not carry over into equipment.[/quote]"

All WebMD ever tells me is "go to the ER before you bleed out." Not that helpful really.