JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
Your name is very appropriate....
Also Obama is trying to do exactly what needs to be done to protect out troops and get them home.
You say Obama gas escalated the war....prove it...links please...thxThe difference between Obama and the republicans is Obama has set in stone a date to be out of Iraq.
If a republican was in office it would be 20 more years before we were out!
Mani
Diamond Member
- Aug 9, 2001
- 4,808
- 1
- 0
I have been skeptical of the stimulus package from the outset. However I've observed a few things:
1. On a macro-level, it's widely recognized that government spending has since the 1930s served to mitigate recessions.
2. Economists are at worst, split on the SP. In fact, of the most prominent economists of our time, all but a few supported the stimulus or felt it should have been even larger.
3. 35% of the SP is a series Tax cuts, targeted directly at the very people (working middle class) who drive an economy. This is for some reason not brought up by its critics when they cite its cost, despite the fact that they were calling for tax cuts in place of it.
4. An economy is ultimately predicated on one thing - confidence. Consumer confidence has solidified, credit and the stock markets have stabilized, and though foreclosures remain a problem, the housing market has stabilized. It could well be that none of these changes were in reaction to the SP (though the timing coincided), but it's also possible that they were. Not hearing doom and gloom about public sector shortfalls and layoffs on a daily basis probably hasn't hurt.
5. In my own company, what could be considered an industry bellweather with a very diverse customer base, the only bright spot in demand come from public sector spending. A huge part of this has been confidence in budgets supported by the stimulus package. Without this, my company and thousands of others (not to mention the public sector itself) would be laying off in droves.
Does this mean the stimulus is foolproof, or even that it's working? I don't know, and I remain somewhat skeptical. But I'm willing to give it a shot.
1. On a macro-level, it's widely recognized that government spending has since the 1930s served to mitigate recessions.
2. Economists are at worst, split on the SP. In fact, of the most prominent economists of our time, all but a few supported the stimulus or felt it should have been even larger.
3. 35% of the SP is a series Tax cuts, targeted directly at the very people (working middle class) who drive an economy. This is for some reason not brought up by its critics when they cite its cost, despite the fact that they were calling for tax cuts in place of it.
4. An economy is ultimately predicated on one thing - confidence. Consumer confidence has solidified, credit and the stock markets have stabilized, and though foreclosures remain a problem, the housing market has stabilized. It could well be that none of these changes were in reaction to the SP (though the timing coincided), but it's also possible that they were. Not hearing doom and gloom about public sector shortfalls and layoffs on a daily basis probably hasn't hurt.
5. In my own company, what could be considered an industry bellweather with a very diverse customer base, the only bright spot in demand come from public sector spending. A huge part of this has been confidence in budgets supported by the stimulus package. Without this, my company and thousands of others (not to mention the public sector itself) would be laying off in droves.
Does this mean the stimulus is foolproof, or even that it's working? I don't know, and I remain somewhat skeptical. But I'm willing to give it a shot.
And how exactly is a budget plan that, even if everything goes as planned (no unexpected wars or economic problems) will cause the national debt to double within the next 10 years and cause sustained deficits with no end in sight "fixing the country?" To me that is just leaving the biggest problems of this country to the next President. At the end of Obama's term (assuming he is re-elected) you will be talking about $20 trillion in debt and still huge deficits. And that's not even considering that the entitlement spending in the U.S. is going to get worse and worse, particularly by 2020-2030. The president after Obama will be faced with either substantially raising taxes, cutting government programs to save money (which is not going to get anyone elected), or seeing the U.S. go bankrupt.
Why does one need to be an expert economist to see the writing on the wall? Is your head so far in the sand you dont know what is coming after 2020? We are running up massive amounts of debt before the shit truely hits the fan! We are putting lead weights in our shorts before jumping off the cliff with our undersized parachute.
nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
- 5,474
- 0
- 0
Wasn't Bush's economic "goal" to have the stock market make a "soft landing"? Then along came his opportunity to be a "war" president and he sold the country down the river for some short term profits for him and his "base" (or as we call them, the elite).
Face the real facts, Bush broke the country just like he did every other business he ran.
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
Dems bitched and bitched about Bush's spending...and now we have massive additional spending and all of a sudden it's not a problem.
I don't get it.
But! Obama HAS to spend this money because of Bush! So, it is all Bush's fault anyway!
:roll:
You need to think in circles when thinking like a Dem. Anyway you can pass the buck so you don't have to be responsible for anything bad, but can take all the credit when something good happens.
Like I've said multiple times before, they are like the children who cry wolf. Eventually, they won't be able to blame Bush any more when things get worse. But they will sure try!
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
But! Obama HAS to spend this money because of Bush! So, it is all Bush's fault anyway!
:roll:
You need to think in circles when thinking like a Dem. Anyway you can pass the buck so you don't have to be responsible for anything bad, but can take all the credit when something good happens.
Like I've said multiple times before, they are like the children who cry wolf. Eventually, they won't be able to blame Bush any more when things get worse. But they will sure try!
Everything you say applies to both parties, and if that isn't readily apparent to you by now, I don't know what to say.
The bailouts started in September under the republican president, how could it possibly be obama's fault right now? Worldwide economic downfall at the start of a presidency, and he is supposed to do nothing? Did you not see the lost decade in Japan after doing nothing?
Shadow I agree with your post upto claiming Japan did nothing. Japan spent like mad during the 90's via stimulus packages and propping up firms that needed to go away.
What is the total they have spent since 1990? Something like 6 trillion dollars? Their debt\gdp ratio is I believe the highest in the industrialized world.
It is amazing how our current situation mimics their's including how we are handling it.
Here is an article I found about it. I dont know the source but the information appears correct. Their initial series of stimulus packages Japan totaled 6% of gdp. Our stimulus package passed in Feb equaled ~5.7%. Scary.
Lost Decade
What is the total they have spent since 1990? Something like 6 trillion dollars? Their debt\gdp ratio is I believe the highest in the industrialized world.
It is amazing how our current situation mimics their's including how we are handling it.
Here is an article I found about it. I dont know the source but the information appears correct. Their initial series of stimulus packages Japan totaled 6% of gdp. Our stimulus package passed in Feb equaled ~5.7%. Scary.
Lost Decade
Indeed. I agree that by no means was Bush a fiscal conservative, however, if Obama gets his way, it will make Bush's deficits look like chump change.
And I love how shadow is totally, 100% wrong on Japan. They've been spending like mad on stimulus packages for years, and their economy has been stagnated since they've been doing so. In fact, Japan is now PAYING non-Japanese nationals to leave the country!
Spain is another country that has been passing bailout after stimulus package. The result? Unemployment has DOUBLED in the past twelve months.
I swear, people don't even bother to research if what they've heard on MSNBC is true before regurgitating it. :roll:
Well Obama is and will get his way and yes he will make Bush look like a damned fiscal conservative which is no easy feat imo.
I am getting sick of the argument of "well we have to do something, doesnt matter if it is the same failed policies of the past, it just has to be done".
No we dont have to do anything drastic and illogical. Keep the banks liquid, keep govt spending in check, and let the markets sort this mess out. We have already wasted billions on the auto makers. If anybody believe we will get our money back + interest I have a mountain top villa to sell you right outside Fargo.
I am getting sick of the argument of "well we have to do something, doesnt matter if it is the same failed policies of the past, it just has to be done".
No we dont have to do anything drastic and illogical. Keep the banks liquid, keep govt spending in check, and let the markets sort this mess out. We have already wasted billions on the auto makers. If anybody believe we will get our money back + interest I have a mountain top villa to sell you right outside Fargo.
And here I thought the Dems where the liberals? Anyway, most of the Dems bitched about where GWB spent money and his fuck all cowboy attitude with foreign policy. Oh, and starting a needless war.
OutHouse
Lifer
- Jun 5, 2000
- 36,410
- 616
- 126
i hope you a refering to Iraq and not Afghanistan, also the Dems have been in control of both houses for ummm lets see 4 years? if washington REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to end the iraq war they could have years ago. that is a fact that nobody can argue.
for the record i wish they had.
Which countries have been rescued from the worldwide economic collapse by tax cuts and letting their companies fail?
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