I feel bad for the H1 workers in the United States

[Zebo]

Beer what kind of car you drive?

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Beer what kind of car you drive?

06 Mazda3 GT 5spd

Used a lot of my co-op salary working with a major fabless semiconductor company to pay part of it and finance the rest.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Ok, so get rid of the sponsorship B.S. and let them stay in the country indfinately.

My disagreement with the OP is based upon the situation now, of which the spsonsorship/prevailing wage mechanism is a tightly coupled one. My counter-point to his post was completely based upon that mechanism and removing the sponsorship mechanism makes my point irrelevant.

 

[RichardE]

Beer, I understand your argument and support it. Also realise that alot of engineers trying to get to the states are trying because that is where the jobs are, so it goes all around. I understand your argument to get a well paying job. but I also understand the argument of a more qualified (same qualifications the job should go to you) getting the job as well.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo
Beer what kind of car you drive?

06 Mazda3 GT 5spd

Used a lot of my co-op salary working with a major fabless semiconductor company to pay part of it and finance the rest.

Foriegn, I see - How many US jobs lost for your choice? Turns out, you don?t believe in the customer enjoying the benefits of ?low prices? and "free market" when you?re the one working on the cheap huh?

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Beer, I understand your argument and support it. Also realise that alot of engineers trying to get to the states are trying because that is where the jobs are, so it goes all around. I understand your argument to get a well paying job. but I also understand the argument of a more qualified (same qualifications the job should go to you) getting the job as well.

It has nothing to do with being qualified. It has to do with employer's holding the 'carrot' of sponsorship as a bargaining chip at the table. I know the 'prevailing wage' clause but it's a very shallow argument. The exact same job title can very easily vary +/- 30% in pay from any 'prevailing' wage.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say I worked with the title, 'Staff Engineer' in a PHY group with some major company. Within that role, I could basically be doing QA work running WHQL tests (which are pretty much scripts that Microsoft writes), or I could be doing chip-level (RTL) of a next-gen, cutting edge PHY.

Same job title. Now, couple the fact that the number of engineers in any one specifc field in any one metropolitan area are numbered, at most, in the hundreds. 'Prevailing' is a completely subjective number.

That is my problem with the system.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo
Beer what kind of car you drive?

06 Mazda3 GT 5spd

Used a lot of my co-op salary working with a major fabless semiconductor company to pay part of it and finance the rest.

Foriegn, I see - How many US jobs lost for your choice? Turns out, you don?t believe in the customer enjoying the benefits of ?low prices? and "free market" when you?re the one working on the cheap huh?

You know Mazda is owned by Ford, right?

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Ok, so get rid of the sponsorship B.S. and let them stay in the country indfinately.

My disagreement with the OP is based upon the situation now, of which the spsonsorship/prevailing wage mechanism is a tightly coupled one. My counter-point to his post was completely based upon that mechanism and removing the sponsorship mechanism makes my point irrelevant.

You should be criticizing the politicians who come up with this B.S. instead of trying to justify your racket.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: z0mb13
.

I agree there are two sides to the issue, but I don't think some of your comments are accurate:

I've hired several H-1B workers in IT, especially during the height of the tech boom. At least three of them went on to get green cards, and I know one of them married a man who did the same thing. While it may be difficult to get a green card, it is obviously possible for those who choose to do so.

Although companies must in theory pay prevailing wages to H-1B workers, the simple fact is many do not. For example, here is a recent Computer World article reporting "H-1B visa IT workers earn on average $13,000 less than their American counterparts, according to a study of U.S. Department of Labor records." This is the main reason many companies still hire H-1B workers, even though there are so many unemployed American tech workers today. H-1B workers can be cheaper, saving companies money immediately and keeping overall wages lower in the long term. That's not to say many H-1B workers don't add tremendous value -- most of the ones I hired were extremely talented -- but many companies abuse the system, displacing well-qualified American workers with cut-rate H-1B workers.

Similarly, the provision about first "trying to hire a U.S. citizen" is easy to circumvent. An unethical company simply needs to define the job requirements in a way that lets them reject all American applicants as "unqualified". The most common tactic is requiring an advanced degree for positions that don't really need them, e.g., routine programming jobs. Another is requiring essentially impossible amounts of experience with a specific tool or language, e.g., "20 years of J2EE experience", then ignoring the fact that the H-1B candidates they get don't actually have the "required" experience (or in the case of certain H-1B body shop companies, have bogus resumes claiming the experience).

Finally, are you sure they cut the H-1B quota? As I understand it, it is currently still at 65,000, with another 20,000 for students graduating American universities with advanced degrees. The 65,000 cap has been in place since the late 1990's. I'm not sure about the 20,000. I'd also like to see evidence that green cards are being awarded to "farmer in south east asia", given the cost of a green card and the hiring requirements you mention.


Good first thread, by the way.

Yes getting a green card is possible, but it is VERY hard and creates a lot of uncertainty.
I was thinking of buying a house (condo to be more realistic here in CA), but I always put it off since I dont know if I can stay here for the long run. If I know that I am guaranted a green card, I would buy one already, and probably wouldve spent a lot of money in furniture, costs, etc. This would help the American economy even more than the taxes that I am already paying.

Regarding your comment of how easy it is to circumvent hiring us citizen. Yes maybe shady companies want to do that, but most high profile public companies wont. THey risk legal jeopardy if the DOL ever finds out that you faked the position, for instance. I personally dont want to work for shady companies.

The point is, the h1 application process is already cumbersome/limiting enough, so that qualified high skilled individuals from various colleges are forced to go back to their home country. If you are a international student, and looking for a job, not only you hvae to find a company that WANTS to sponsor you, you have to be much better than the other job applicants, and you have to play the quota game, where you basically pray the quota dont get filled before they give you an offer (in fact, the quota for undergrad college degrees are filled so quickly its not even funny)

During the boom times, the quota was at 100 thousand ish IIRC, and somehow it was cut down to 40-50k ish. Then they added the extra 20k for graduate degree holders. I read a article somewhere (I think it was on the journal), where it shows cutting the quota down to 65k creates a major shortage. the article argues that If the quota is increased, it will NOT mean that international workers will flood the US job market, because in the past when the quota was still plenty, there was a time when the quota was not filled because simply the demand for the h1 visas werent there.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: RichardE
Think the green card for SE asia worker is refering to the Lottery program.

I understand that. I just don't understand why a "farmer in south east asia" would want one, or how he would pay for one. I'll concede it's not an issue I follow at the moment, so please clue me in if I'm missing something.

yes I was referring to the lottery program. The point I am trying to make is how they are throwing green cards at totally random people, while they can save these and give it to people that is already guaranteed to be a productive member of the society.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo
Beer what kind of car you drive?

06 Mazda3 GT 5spd

Used a lot of my co-op salary working with a major fabless semiconductor company to pay part of it and finance the rest.

Foriegn, I see - How many US jobs lost for your choice? Turns out, you don?t believe in the customer enjoying the benefits of ?low prices? and "free market" when you?re the one working on the cheap huh?

You know Mazda is owned by Ford, right?

Who cares who it's owned by? Will it ease your pain telling you H1B's employed at intel and american company is OK? Of course it won't you've already stated as much. Mazda3 GT is a 100% japanese made - in other words your choice of buying one dispaced american workers and you employed japanese workers. That's your choice - but don't come crying to me when your job is displaced by the same efforts to achive low prices and more selction visa vi H1B's


They have a word for that you know?

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Some people would say the US gov is protecting their current citizens, so they wont lose their jobs. They would argue that the corporations are paying less money for these international workers, but this is simply not true. When you apply for a h1, your wage has to be the prevailing wage for your position, so your h1 would be rejected if the company hires you for less wage. Even more, the companies also have to prove that they TRIED to hire a us citizen, but they simply can't, so they have to hire this international person.

This is the problem. I am a fresh-out-of-school EE so I have a personal, vested interest in seeing H1Bs capped. My objection to H1Bs is that they effectively lower the prevailing wage that I would make. There is not an abundance of home grown EE talent these days. From my point of view, H1Bs could dramatically increase the supply of other engineers that I compete in the market with.

You aren't put into a position to negotiate like I am, because you are forced to work with a company that will sponsor you, whereas I will work for whatever gives me the best compensation package. Effectively, this means that a company that would hire me will put me in your wage class. With fewer H1Bs, they have more of an incentive to pay me well.

Sorry, you may think you are entitled to stay here, but I think I am entitled to remain in a competitive market and I will support that to the fullest extent that I can do so.

thats a good point too..

IMO this is a narrow short sighted point that robs innovation and future growth.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo
Beer what kind of car you drive?

06 Mazda3 GT 5spd

Used a lot of my co-op salary working with a major fabless semiconductor company to pay part of it and finance the rest.

Foriegn, I see - How many US jobs lost for your choice? Turns out, you don?t believe in the customer enjoying the benefits of ?low prices? and "free market" when you?re the one working on the cheap huh?

You know Mazda is owned by Ford, right?

Who cares who it's owned by? Will it ease your pain telling you H1B's employed at intel and american company is OK? Of course it won't you've already stated as much. Mazda3 GT is a 100% japanese made - in other words your choice of buying one dispaced american workers and you employed japanese workers. That's your choice - but don't come crying to me when your job is displaced by the same efforts to achive low prices and more selction visa vi H1B's


They have a word for that you know?

totally agree

America is based on capitalism, its simply using the BEST and cheapest resources.

I agree with BEer's point on how some companies misuse the h1 factor to pressure non-US people into taking lower than average wages. But if the h1 barrier of entry is eliminated, it would create a more equal playing field, which might force companies to pay the REAL prevailing wage for the non-US people

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: z0mb13
I agree with BEer's point on how some companies misuse the h1 factor to pressure non-US people into taking lower than average wages. But if the h1 barrier of entry is eliminated, it would create a more equal playing field, which might force companies to pay the REAL prevailing wage for the non-US people

And this is exactly my point. The real prevailing wage is not paid now, and you yourself admit it. Visas are always needed. That's pretty much a premise of government, you can't have people running around unrestricted. So, simply increasing the quota, as has been suggested, does nothing to invalidate any of my points.

They still use the visa as a way to get cheaper labor than the market would allow because people are desperate enough to take any offer to stay in the country.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Zebo
Beer what kind of car you drive?

06 Mazda3 GT 5spd

Used a lot of my co-op salary working with a major fabless semiconductor company to pay part of it and finance the rest.

Foriegn, I see - How many US jobs lost for your choice? Turns out, you don?t believe in the customer enjoying the benefits of ?low prices? and "free market" when you?re the one working on the cheap huh?

You know Mazda is owned by Ford, right?

Who cares who it's owned by? Will it ease your pain telling you H1B's employed at intel and american company is OK? Of course it won't you've already stated as much. Mazda3 GT is a 100% japanese made - in other words your choice of buying one dispaced american workers and you employed japanese workers. That's your choice - but don't come crying to me when your job is displaced by the same efforts to achive low prices and more selction visa vi H1B's


They have a word for that you know?

Manufacturing is not the point. Manufacturing would be equivalent to semicoductor fabrication which is never done in this country due to the EPA except in the situations where (a) the vendor is fabricating devices for military purposes (TI, Raytheon) or (b) the vendor is using a fab that has already been grandfathered in and utilizes less sophisticated processes that allow them to skirt EPA regulations (flash memory, for example).

 

[judasmachine]

I'm not understanding some of these replies. The guy is a productive memeber of society, and he's complaining about being made to jump threw hoops to stay a productive member of society. I say welcome, and I'm sorry for the level of xenophobia around here. You got a good old american education in more ways than one. We aren't the melting pot anymore, we're a bunch of bitter rednecks, sorry.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: beer

Some people would say the US gov is protecting their current citizens, so they wont lose their jobs. They would argue that the corporations are paying less money for these international workers, but this is simply not true. When you apply for a h1, your wage has to be the prevailing wage for your position, so your h1 would be rejected if the company hires you for less wage. Even more, the companies also have to prove that they TRIED to hire a us citizen, but they simply can't, so they have to hire this international person.

This is the problem. I am a fresh-out-of-school EE so I have a personal, vested interest in seeing H1Bs capped. My objection to H1Bs is that they effectively lower the prevailing wage that I would make. There is not an abundance of home grown EE talent these days. From my point of view, H1Bs could dramatically increase the supply of other engineers that I compete in the market with.

You aren't put into a position to negotiate like I am, because you are forced to work with a company that will sponsor you, whereas I will work for whatever gives me the best compensation package. Effectively, this means that a company that would hire me will put me in your wage class. With fewer H1Bs, they have more of an incentive to pay me well.

Sorry, you may think you are entitled to stay here, but I think I am entitled to remain in a competitive market and I will support that to the fullest extent that I can do so.

thats a good point too..

That's a good point, until all the hi-tech companies are forced to pay the high salary and work with the few EE graduates born in this country. In a few years, the hi-tech companies of this country is just gonna go the way of GM and Ford. Perfect examples of paying excessive wage while not getting the best of the best in innovation and technology.

Having H1B quota is the total opposite of the idea of free, competitive market. It is basically a tariff and quota created to protect the wage of US born technology workers. I am sure some tariff and quota works wonders for the special interest group they are designed to protect, but most of the time they just get in the way and making the country less competitive as a whole.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I'm not understanding some of these replies. The guy is a productive memeber of society, and he's complaining about being made to jump threw hoops to stay a productive member of society. I say welcome, and I'm sorry for the level of xenophobia around here. You got a good old american education in more ways than one. We aren't the melting pot anymore, we're a bunch of bitter rednecks, sorry.

A lot of posters are missing the OP's point.

If we have accepted people with advanced skills and education into our workforce we should not make it difficult for them to remain productive members of society. After all they are not a burden on society and they are providing a positive input.

Lets look at numbers: A maximum of 65,000 visa per year are issued under the H1 program. Assuming all apply for green cards (and many don't or can't get sponsorship) we are allowing 65,000 people a year (plus some immediate family members) become permanent residents.

Add these 65K people to the number of L category visa holders (I don't know how many they are per year) who apply for green cards and that total is somewhere between 10-12% of all legal immigration into the US. Bear in mind we are talking of people who add value to the workforce.

I agree the Visa diversity lottery program should be scrapped. They are people who only have to have a high school diploma or 2 years of experience in their vocation and the luck to win one of the 55,000 visas each year in a lottery scheme. These people would typically have more problems assimilating into society, either through lack of English, work skills or even culture. The prime motive for this program was to increase the number of European immigrants whose number had been dropping through the 70's and 80's. Call it reverse affirmative action if you will.

Productive members of society who are already here legally should not be made to jump through hoops to stay.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I'm not understanding some of these replies. The guy is a productive memeber of society, and he's complaining about being made to jump threw hoops to stay a productive member of society. I say welcome, and I'm sorry for the level of xenophobia around here. You got a good old american education in more ways than one. We aren't the melting pot anymore, we're a bunch of bitter rednecks, sorry.

A lot of posters are missing the OP's point.

If we have accepted people with advanced skills and education into our workforce we should not make it difficult for them to remain productive members of society. After all they are not a burden on society and they are providing a positive input.

Lets look at numbers: A maximum of 65,000 visa per year are issued under the H1 program. Assuming all apply for green cards (and many don't or can't get sponsorship) we are allowing 65,000 people a year (plus some immediate family members) become permanent residents.

Add these 65K people to the number of L category visa holders (I don't know how many they are per year) who apply for green cards and that total is somewhere between 10-12% of all legal immigration into the US. Bear in mind we are talking of people who add value to the workforce.

I agree the Visa diversity lottery program should be scrapped. They are people who only have to have a high school diploma or 2 years of experience in their vocation and the luck to win one of the 55,000 visas each year in a lottery scheme. These people would typically have more problems assimilating into society, either through lack of English, work skills or even culture. The prime motive for this program was to increase the number of European immigrants whose number had been dropping through the 70's and 80's. Call it reverse affirmative action if you will.

Productive members of society who are already here legally should not be made to jump through hoops to stay.

ding ding ding ding!! 😀

exactly my point! we already jumped through hoops, and getting a h1 is already proof enough that we can contribute to the american economy.. why dont give us greencards? 🙂

yes the green card lottery should NOT be called a lottery at all.. it is kind of rigged. If you are from europe you have a VERY good chance of getting a greencard. The odds are basically determined by region. If you are from asia it is really like winning a lottery

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I'm not understanding some of these replies. The guy is a productive memeber of society, and he's complaining about being made to jump threw hoops to stay a productive member of society. I say welcome, and I'm sorry for the level of xenophobia around here. You got a good old american education in more ways than one. We aren't the melting pot anymore, we're a bunch of bitter rednecks, sorry.

A lot of posters are missing the OP's point.

If we have accepted people with advanced skills and education into our workforce we should not make it difficult for them to remain productive members of society. After all they are not a burden on society and they are providing a positive input.

Lets look at numbers: A maximum of 65,000 visa per year are issued under the H1 program. Assuming all apply for green cards (and many don't or can't get sponsorship) we are allowing 65,000 people a year (plus some immediate family members) become permanent residents.

Add these 65K people to the number of L category visa holders (I don't know how many they are per year) who apply for green cards and that total is somewhere between 10-12% of all legal immigration into the US. Bear in mind we are talking of people who add value to the workforce.

I agree the Visa diversity lottery program should be scrapped. They are people who only have to have a high school diploma or 2 years of experience in their vocation and the luck to win one of the 55,000 visas each year in a lottery scheme. These people would typically have more problems assimilating into society, either through lack of English, work skills or even culture. The prime motive for this program was to increase the number of European immigrants whose number had been dropping through the 70's and 80's. Call it reverse affirmative action if you will.

Productive members of society who are already here legally should not be made to jump through hoops to stay.

It's a reasonable point, but it presumes that these 65,000 H-1Bs are not displacing equally qualified American citizens who could contribute just as much. That is the real point, finding the right number to maximize the number of valuable foreign workers while minimizing the number of equally valuable Americans. Make the quota too low and we lose the benefits you describe. Make the quota too high and the benefits plateau while wages are driven down. In other words, like almost everything else in life, it is NOT a black and white issue.

 

[judasmachine]

I don't like it, but we are going to have to learn to sell ourselves. If we do not, the job itself will move overseas to meet them before they come over here. I'm invisioning an america where everyone is a consultant or lawyer. The two things a megacorporation cannot do without. We've taken our economic advantage for granted for too long. We now have to compete, like it or not.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I'm not understanding some of these replies. The guy is a productive memeber of society, and he's complaining about being made to jump threw hoops to stay a productive member of society. I say welcome, and I'm sorry for the level of xenophobia around here. You got a good old american education in more ways than one. We aren't the melting pot anymore, we're a bunch of bitter rednecks, sorry.

A lot of posters are missing the OP's point.

If we have accepted people with advanced skills and education into our workforce we should not make it difficult for them to remain productive members of society. After all they are not a burden on society and they are providing a positive input.

Lets look at numbers: A maximum of 65,000 visa per year are issued under the H1 program. Assuming all apply for green cards (and many don't or can't get sponsorship) we are allowing 65,000 people a year (plus some immediate family members) become permanent residents.

Add these 65K people to the number of L category visa holders (I don't know how many they are per year) who apply for green cards and that total is somewhere between 10-12% of all legal immigration into the US. Bear in mind we are talking of people who add value to the workforce.

I agree the Visa diversity lottery program should be scrapped. They are people who only have to have a high school diploma or 2 years of experience in their vocation and the luck to win one of the 55,000 visas each year in a lottery scheme. These people would typically have more problems assimilating into society, either through lack of English, work skills or even culture. The prime motive for this program was to increase the number of European immigrants whose number had been dropping through the 70's and 80's. Call it reverse affirmative action if you will.

Productive members of society who are already here legally should not be made to jump through hoops to stay.

It's a reasonable point, but it presumes that these 65,000 H-1Bs are not displacing equally qualified American citizens who could contribute just as much. That is the real point, finding the right number to maximize the number of valuable foreign workers while minimizing the number of equally valuable Americans. Make the quota too low and we lose the benefits you describe. Make the quota too high and the benefits plateau while wages are driven down. In other words, like almost everything else in life, it is NOT a black and white issue.

trust me, if an equally skilled american go toe to toe with an non-us citizen, the company would always choose the american. I am talking about the same position and the same salary of course.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
A lot of posters are missing the OP's point.

If we have accepted people with advanced skills and education into our workforce we should not make it difficult for them to remain productive members of society. After all they are not a burden on society and they are providing a positive input.

Lets look at numbers: A maximum of 65,000 visa per year are issued under the H1 program. Assuming all apply for green cards (and many don't or can't get sponsorship) we are allowing 65,000 people a year (plus some immediate family members) become permanent residents.

Add these 65K people to the number of L category visa holders (I don't know how many they are per year) who apply for green cards and that total is somewhere between 10-12% of all legal immigration into the US. Bear in mind we are talking of people who add value to the workforce.

I agree the Visa diversity lottery program should be scrapped. They are people who only have to have a high school diploma or 2 years of experience in their vocation and the luck to win one of the 55,000 visas each year in a lottery scheme. These people would typically have more problems assimilating into society, either through lack of English, work skills or even culture. The prime motive for this program was to increase the number of European immigrants whose number had been dropping through the 70's and 80's. Call it reverse affirmative action if you will.

Productive members of society who are already here legally should not be made to jump through hoops to stay.

It's a reasonable point, but it presumes that these 65,000 H-1Bs are not displacing equally qualified American citizens who could contribute just as much. That is the real point, finding the right number to maximize the number of valuable foreign workers while minimizing the number of equally valuable Americans. Make the quota too low and we lose the benefits you describe. Make the quota too high and the benefits plateau while wages are driven down. In other words, like almost everything else in life, it is NOT a black and white issue.

trust me, if an equally skilled american go toe to toe with an non-us citizen, the company would always choose the american. I am talking about the same position and the same salary of course.

"Same salary" is the rub. As I've already pointed out, H-1Bs are paid significantly less than their American peers. The Labor stats cited by Computer World show an average disparity of $13K per year in IT, for example.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: z0mb13


trust me, if an equally skilled american go toe to toe with an non-us citizen, the company would always choose the american. I am talking about the same position and the same salary of course.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Right there is the problem, You'd be willing to do the job for less in order to get it and stay in the country even though an American is just as quailified to do it but not as willing to do it as cheap.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: z0mb13


trust me, if an equally skilled american go toe to toe with an non-us citizen, the company would always choose the american. I am talking about the same position and the same salary of course.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Right there is the problem, You'd be willing to do the job for less in order to get it and stay in the country even though an American is just as quailified to do it but not as willing to do it as cheap.

Not only lower wages but immigrants are prepared to put more hours into their jobs than the industry standard for this lower pay.

We export jobs for lower wages, we import job for lower wages.

It took over 100 years to build a system that treats workers good, and that will be undone if we open the doors and welcome everyone here to do the job we do for less money and longer hours.