I don't get it

[Savij]

I did a quick glance through some census data and it looks like overall the trend is a shifting of households from the lower end of the pay scale to the middle and upper sections (as a percentage of the total number of households). I just don't see any actual data to back up the argument that the elite are oppressing workers and the rich are trampling over everyone else. Someone please point me to the facts that say that the average family is getting shat upon.

*I want macro data for the US. I do understand that there are cities, regions, and industries that are growing and shrinking at all times. It's unforunate but a fact of life. It's easy to point out a city that has been affected by a loss in manufacturing jobs or point out that there isn't much of a horseshoeing industry like there was in the "good old days".

**I want data that for at least 2 or 3 decades. I don't feel that any macroeconomic trends can be seen in short term (a few years) of data. We aren't doing as well as we were in the late '90s when adding an "E" to your product could net you 5 billion dollars and a Lotus, but I don't feel that the current state of the economy sucks and Marx was right just because it's not as easy to generate wealth as it was in the "New Economy".

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Savij
I did a quick glance through some census data and it looks like overall the trend is a shifting of households from the lower end of the pay scale to the middle and upper sections (as a percentage of the total number of households). I just don't see any actual data to back up the argument that the elite are oppressing workers and the rich are trampling over everyone else. Someone please point me to the facts that say that the average family is getting shat upon.

*I want macro data for the US. I do understand that there are cities, regions, and industries that are growing and shrinking at all times. It's unforunate but a fact of life. It's easy to point out a city that has been affected by a loss in manufacturing jobs or point out that there isn't much of a horseshoeing industry like there was in the "good old days".

**I want data that for at least 2 or 3 decades. I don't feel that any macroeconomic trends can be seen in short term (a few years) of data. We aren't doing as well as we were in the late '90s when adding an "E" to your product could net you 5 billion dollars and a Lotus, but I don't feel that the current state of the economy sucks and Marx was right just because it's not as easy to generate wealth as it was in the "New Economy".

You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon of the Republican Party.

Dave, you didn't finish that last sentence. I fixed it for you though.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Sorry, wrong button.

 

[Amplifier]

It isn't shrinking. Here's a link with some stats.

For the raw stats you're looking for, check out www.census.gov

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon of the Republican Party.

Dave, you didn't finish that last sentence. I fixed it for you though.

For the record, I don't think I've ever voted for a republican above the local city government level. I don't vote strictly by party line so I may have, but can't remember doing so.

In addition, I fall smack in the middle of the middle class (absolutely no way I could be considered anything but middle class status by any standard). My parents are also in the middle class. They do make more than me, but I don't think that the would be considered upper-middle by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Savij
I did a quick glance through some census data and it looks like overall the trend is a shifting of households from the lower end of the pay scale to the middle and upper sections (as a percentage of the total number of households). I just don't see any actual data to back up the argument that the elite are oppressing workers and the rich are trampling over everyone else. Someone please point me to the facts that say that the average family is getting shat upon.

*I want macro data for the US. I do understand that there are cities, regions, and industries that are growing and shrinking at all times. It's unforunate but a fact of life. It's easy to point out a city that has been affected by a loss in manufacturing jobs or point out that there isn't much of a horseshoeing industry like there was in the "good old days".

**I want data that for at least 2 or 3 decades. I don't feel that any macroeconomic trends can be seen in short term (a few years) of data. We aren't doing as well as we were in the late '90s when adding an "E" to your product could net you 5 billion dollars and a Lotus, but I don't feel that the current state of the economy sucks and Marx was right just because it's not as easy to generate wealth as it was in the "New Economy".

You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon.

I'll agree that this happens on the shorter term 2-5 year periods. But those are spaced out by longer periods of the growth of the middle class.

 

[torpid]

You're not going to find data that is apocalyptic, just data that is slight and subject to debate as posted above.

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: torpid
You're not going to find data that is apocalyptic, just data that is slight and subject to debate as posted above.

That's what I'm asking for: data. Someone show me data that is more than just an economic cycle or fluctuation.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: torpid
You're not going to find data that is apocalyptic, just data that is slight and subject to debate as posted above.

That's what I'm asking for: data. Someone show me data that is more than just an economic cycle or fluctuation.

No such data exists, because all economic data is subject to political spin / interpretation. No matter what data someone shows you, you will be able to have skepticism and 100 different reasons why the data doesn't prove anything. Since we live in the real world, there won't be any data where the middle class goes from 50% of americans to 0.2%, and that is the only data that will satisfy some people (you).

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: torpid
You're not going to find data that is apocalyptic, just data that is slight and subject to debate as posted above.

That's what I'm asking for: data. Someone show me data that is more than just an economic cycle or fluctuation.

No such data exists, because all economic data is subject to political spin / interpretation. No matter what data someone shows you, you will be able to have skepticism and 100 different reasons why the data doesn't prove anything. Since we live in the real world, there won't be any data where the middle class goes from 50% of americans to 0.2%, and that is the only data that will satisfy some people (you).

Ok, here's a challange: I will be happy with ANY data that shows we lost more households from the 25th to 75th percentile income group (as a percentage of the total number of households) than we gained in ANY 10 year period since the 1930's.

edit: It must be actual data from a somewhat trustworthy source. No talking heads without the numbers, no guy blogging about how he Communists should take over or any of that.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon of the Republican Party.

Dave, you didn't finish that last sentence. I fixed it for you though.

Awwwwww Thank You. :thumbsup:

I didn't forget, I'm not allowed to use that word in OT

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon of the Republican Party.

Dave, you didn't finish that last sentence. I fixed it for you though.

Awwwwww Thank You. :thumbsup:

I didn't forget, I'm not allowed to use that word in OT

And once again I'll say that I voted for Kerry.

 

[RCN]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674


You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon.

Well I'm once again at the bottom of the middle class/ borderline poor. Maybe you could provide a link because I don't see it shrinking either...........

 

[jupiter57]

No data for you, just a sort of Rant:
The middle class is not shrinking, in fact, it's probably actually growing.
It seems that so many people feel they should add the $30K they charge yearly on their credit card to their annual income!
That's right, live like the upper class until it catches up with you! So many people nowadays paying House payments with Credit cards, paying one card with another, and as the guy in the commercial says, "I'm in debt up to my eyeballs".

 

[Savij]

Anyone in the day crowd?

 

[torpid]

You don't trust the fact check site? Jeez, sorry, no site will please you if that is the case.

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: torpid
You don't trust the fact check site? Jeez, sorry, no site will please you if that is the case.

I see short term data there.

 

[ValkyrieofHouston]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Savij
I did a quick glance through some census data and it looks like overall the trend is a shifting of households from the lower end of the pay scale to the middle and upper sections (as a percentage of the total number of households). I just don't see any actual data to back up the argument that the elite are oppressing workers and the rich are trampling over everyone else. Someone please point me to the facts that say that the average family is getting shat upon.

*I want macro data for the US. I do understand that there are cities, regions, and industries that are growing and shrinking at all times. It's unforunate but a fact of life. It's easy to point out a city that has been affected by a loss in manufacturing jobs or point out that there isn't much of a horseshoeing industry like there was in the "good old days".

**I want data that for at least 2 or 3 decades. I don't feel that any macroeconomic trends can be seen in short term (a few years) of data. We aren't doing as well as we were in the late '90s when adding an "E" to your product could net you 5 billion dollars and a Lotus, but I don't feel that the current state of the economy sucks and Marx was right just because it's not as easy to generate wealth as it was in the "New Economy".

You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon.

This boy has already made up his mind, so what's the point of looking up data for him if he has already postured himself in his thread to question it?

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: torpid
You don't trust the fact check site? Jeez, sorry, no site will please you if that is the case.

I see short term data there.

I rest my case.

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: ValkyrieofHouston

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Savij
I did a quick glance through some census data and it looks like overall the trend is a shifting of households from the lower end of the pay scale to the middle and upper sections (as a percentage of the total number of households). I just don't see any actual data to back up the argument that the elite are oppressing workers and the rich are trampling over everyone else. Someone please point me to the facts that say that the average family is getting shat upon.

*I want macro data for the US. I do understand that there are cities, regions, and industries that are growing and shrinking at all times. It's unforunate but a fact of life. It's easy to point out a city that has been affected by a loss in manufacturing jobs or point out that there isn't much of a horseshoeing industry like there was in the "good old days".

**I want data that for at least 2 or 3 decades. I don't feel that any macroeconomic trends can be seen in short term (a few years) of data. We aren't doing as well as we were in the late '90s when adding an "E" to your product could net you 5 billion dollars and a Lotus, but I don't feel that the current state of the economy sucks and Marx was right just because it's not as easy to generate wealth as it was in the "New Economy".

You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon.

This boy has already made up his mind, so what's the point of looking up data for him if he has already postured himself in his thread to question it?

Yes, based on the numbers I've seen I've decided one way. If someone will show me some real long term numbers disputing it then I will acknowledge it and possibly change my mind.

Show me the numbers. That's all I'm asking.

 

[ValkyrieofHouston]

These were the only links I could come up with... sorry! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019816/site/newsweek/from/RL.5/
http://www.factcheck.org/article249.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/02/business/wbmarket03.php

 

[ValkyrieofHouston]

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: ValkyrieofHouston

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Savij
I did a quick glance through some census data and it looks like overall the trend is a shifting of households from the lower end of the pay scale to the middle and upper sections (as a percentage of the total number of households). I just don't see any actual data to back up the argument that the elite are oppressing workers and the rich are trampling over everyone else. Someone please point me to the facts that say that the average family is getting shat upon.

*I want macro data for the US. I do understand that there are cities, regions, and industries that are growing and shrinking at all times. It's unforunate but a fact of life. It's easy to point out a city that has been affected by a loss in manufacturing jobs or point out that there isn't much of a horseshoeing industry like there was in the "good old days".

**I want data that for at least 2 or 3 decades. I don't feel that any macroeconomic trends can be seen in short term (a few years) of data. We aren't doing as well as we were in the late '90s when adding an "E" to your product could net you 5 billion dollars and a Lotus, but I don't feel that the current state of the economy sucks and Marx was right just because it's not as easy to generate wealth as it was in the "New Economy".

You'll find plenty of threads and links in P&N.

However by the sound of your tone you don't believe that the middle class is shrinking because you are already in the upper echelon.

This boy has already made up his mind, so what's the point of looking up data for him if he has already postured himself in his thread to question it?

Yes, based on the numbers I've seen I've decided one way. If someone will show me some real long term numbers disputing it then I will acknowledge it and possibly change my mind.

Show me the numbers. That's all I'm asking.

I have a question for you, if you don't believe that the claims are true, then why does it matter to you? Just curious...

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: torpid
You don't trust the fact check site? Jeez, sorry, no site will please you if that is the case.

I see short term data there.

I rest my case.

Can you point out any numbers that relate more than a few years of data that say the middle class is shrinking there? I went through it, but I keep seeing 2000-2003 referenced. In my opinion that is short term data. I am not going to dispute the fact that the middle class does shrink for short periods of time, but I simply don't see any numbers to say that is true in the long run. Please, just show me the numbers.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Records were kept by the middle class, so there are no records