"I Don't get all the hate for Dragon Age 2" - Take 2

[thespyder]

...et all...

I agree 100%. Unfortunately, the good folks at Bioware have already said that they are going to take "The best of both games" and move forward for DA3. And the general consensus from the Bioware folks (or at least the EA party line) is that DA2 was a resounding success. Certainly it was more or less the direction that they (again, probably more EA than Bioware) wanted to go.

And quite a lot of the "Changes" weren't made because they were broken, but because the developers wanted it to be more approachable by a "Wider base" of gamers, i.e Console players. The Wave theory of combat for instance was implemented because the Console couldn't handle large scale battles the way most PC's today can. So they scaled it back and turned "Larger" battles into smaller waves.

There is a whole lot more of that but it is useless to rehash all of it yet again. The simple point is that they will (probably) still want to make it console friendly and accessible to players who aren't necessarily "Hard Core" RPG fans.

I predict, if this goes this way for a couple of generations we will end up with DA:Halo in the not to distant future. It's really kind of sad.

 

[PrayForDeath]

I agree 100%. Unfortunately, the good folks at Bioware have already said that they are going to take "The best of both games" and move forward for DA3. And the general consensus from the Bioware folks (or at least the EA party line) is that DA2 was a resounding success. Certainly it was more or less the direction that they (again, probably more EA than Bioware) wanted to go.

And quite a lot of the "Changes" weren't made because they were broken, but because the developers wanted it to be more approachable by a "Wider base" of gamers, i.e Console players. The Wave theory of combat for instance was implemented because the Console couldn't handle large scale battles the way most PC's today can. So they scaled it back and turned "Larger" battles into smaller waves.

There is a whole lot more of that but it is useless to rehash all of it yet again. The simple point is that they will (probably) still want to make it console friendly and accessible to players who aren't necessarily "Hard Core" RPG fans.

I predict, if this goes this way for a couple of generations we will end up with DA:Halo in the not to distant future. It's really kind of sad.

Them saying they're "taking the best out of both games" is just PR talk because they can't just admit that they made a mistake with DA2. The game is still going through its lifecycle, and has DLCs in production. They would kill it and damage their sales if they admit that it was a mistake.

I doubt they consider DA2 a resounding success. If they ignored the fans uproar all over the internet/bioware forums, and continued to produce yet another DA2-quality sequel, then they deserve to fail and go bankrupt after DA3.

 

[darkewaffle]

If Bioware were to go under, it'd have a lot more to do with a galaxy far far away than it would Ferelden.

 

[Borealis7]

If Bioware were to go under, it'd have a lot more to do with a galaxy far far away than it would Ferelden.

haha, +1 comment of the day!

 

[thespyder]

Them saying they're "taking the best out of both games" is just PR talk because they can't just admit that they made a mistake with DA2. The game is still going through its lifecycle, and has DLCs in production. They would kill it and damage their sales if they admit that it was a mistake.

I doubt they consider DA2 a resounding success. If they ignored the fans uproar all over the internet/bioware forums, and continued to produce yet another DA2-quality sequel, then they deserve to fail and go bankrupt after DA3.

So let me put it another way. "EA" thinks that DA2 was a resounding success. And Bioware is locking step (seemingly). An interview I read with Biowares' lead designer when they announced DA3 indicated that they were absolutely on the path of making DA3 more or less DA2 but without the infinitely reused buildings and warehouses. That the development cycle was going to be similar to DA2 and that they were pleased with the Skills and Inventory "Changes" from DA:O.

I am in full agreement that if DA3 is anything like DA2, it will kill the DA franchise for all time (for the RPG fans). But consider for a second what ME2 is like and what ME3 is "Probably" going to be like. And then consider that DA2 really did turn a profit. Which appears to be the only thing that EA is concerned about. Even if they can't please the RPG market, that is only a small percentage of the potential market out there (in EA's view). Not saying I like it. Just saying get ready for the very real possibility.

If Bioware were to go under, it'd have a lot more to do with a galaxy far far away than it would Ferelden.

On this we definitely agree. +1

 

[exar333]

Are you for real or just 12 years old? Do you have any clue how the business world works?

EA Owns bioware, they arn't under contract for the game they are OWNED by EA. When the people who own your company tell you to do something you do it or they fire you and find someone who will do what they want, its that simple. You can try and reason with them but at the end of the day they own you and you do what they say.

So its 100% EA's fault as bioware had no option to tell them to f off, the game was rushed and i think bioware pulled off a miracle in the time they had.

You sound like a complete tool. I don't like 'yes men' myself, and yes I do have a 'real' job.

 

[exar333]

Its bioware's fault for allowing greed to take over and getting bought out by EA. They used to pride themselves on being small and creating games with artistic vision, now just bow down before their EA overlords and do whatever they want. They WILLINGLY allowed EA to take over because some fat cat exec wanted to stuff his pockets with cash. THEY SOLD OUT. Screw them.

If they can't make a game without selling out all of their developers should just quit and call it a day. F' em.

And yes, DA2 is a horrbile joke compared to DA:O. I can't believe this came from the same company that made the masterpiece Baldurs Gate 2. Sad, sad day.

No kidding. There was more detail and creativity in the first 5% of BG2 than the whole DA2 game.

It's like comparing a fine, aged wine to a glass of kool-aid.

 

[thespyder]

You sound like a complete tool. I don't like 'yes men' myself, and yes I do have a 'real' job.

I think what was trying to be conveyed is that decisions were made at the EA level that, short of people at Bioware handing in their resignations, were requirements that needed to be met. I personally don't excuse the game, but I don't envy someone who has to chose between creative integrity and putting food in their mouths.

You can survive the launch of a poor (even franchise killing) game. Starving in this economy on the other hand can very quickly lead to terminal consequences. And taking a moral stand when that is your only other option is really not being a 'yes man' or a tool. It's understanding who makes you able to support yourself and your family.

 

[skace]

The reality between the EA vs Bioware argument is that unless Bioware came out, publicly apologized for DA2 and blamed EA, then it really doesn't matter who is at fault because we simply don't have the information.

Silence is often agreement and doubly so if Bioware claims DA2 as a success. There is absolutely no need to make excuses for Bioware or blame things on EA. And trust me, EA gets enough blame from me, hell, I'm boycotting Origins and haven't bought BF3 because of it.

I think Bioware got lost in their own success and I certainly won't be purchasing DA3 before a price drop if at all.

 

[Arg Clin]

People will vote with their wallets. The con EA/Bioware pulled off with DA2 - selling an inferiour game to fans (like myself) that they thought would be a sequel of DA:O worthy standards only works the first time. "Fool me once..." applies here.

Surely Bioware knows this, so either they'll give up on the RPG fan base or get the act together. If the first option is chosen it will be a sad day, but someone else will become "the new Bioware". CDProjekt comes to mind as a likely candidate.

 

[Red Storm]

During the pre-development of the game, Brent Knowles, a veteran lead designer who had been with Bioware for a decade and the central figurehead behind Dragon Age: Origins, decided to resign during the designing process of Dragon Age 2 and eventually left the company, stating “I’m not the same person I was when I started, and BioWare isn’t the same company.” He later went on to clarify his decision to leave, elaborating "I never thought Dragon Age 2 would be a terrible game. It was just that a highly cinematic, action-leaning RPG wasn’t what I wanted to work on. That is all."

I only wish I had known this before buying the game.

The above is from Wikipedia, but you can read Brent's own blog post for more detail.

 

[thespyder]

The reality between the EA vs Bioware argument is that unless Bioware came out, publicly apologized for DA2 and blamed EA, then it really doesn't matter who is at fault because we simply don't have the information.

Silence is often agreement and doubly so if Bioware claims DA2 as a success. There is absolutely no need to make excuses for Bioware or blame things on EA. And trust me, EA gets enough blame from me, hell, I'm boycotting Origins and haven't bought BF3 because of it.

I think Bioware got lost in their own success and I certainly won't be purchasing DA3 before a price drop if at all.

Agreed I might be "reading in" on the part of Bioware folks due to past successes. And we might never know for sure. Certainly there enough factors on all points of the compass on that one.

But I am 100% with you in that I will not be purchasing DA3 until I have a good long look at it post launch to determine which way the wind blew. And most probably not until there is a significant price drop.

It's a shame. The folks at Bioware had such a stellar hit ratio. And to throw it all away on the drivel that DA2 was seems like just burning money.

 

[PrayForDeath]

BioWare used to be a good company, then it took an EArrow to the knee.

:awe:

 

[Dumac]

BioWare used to be a good company, then it took an EArrow to the knee.

:awe:

It's the new "The cake is a lie"

 

[Borealis7]

The cake is a lie used to be a good meme, then it took an arrow to the knee...

 

[PrayForDeath]

The cake is a lie used to be a good meme, then it took an arrow to the knee...

*mind explodes*

 

[cronos]

I finally grabbed DA:II from Amazon for $5 yesterday. I don't think it'll get any lower than that, and I don't think it'll ever show up in Steam again so I bit.

(I checked again just now and it's back to $17.25. Wth, did I just get lucky or what?)

From the intro (just arrived at Kirkwall last night when I went to bed), this looks to be a different game than DA:O. Check that, it's a sequel of the same game, but there should be no argument that this one is directed towards completely different people (in terms of gaming preference). The way I see it, only true lovers of both classic PC RPG and console action games will enjoy both games equally.

I can totally understand why people with expectation of a 'newer and better DA:O' are completely disappointed. I can also understand why DA:II attracted so many new people that think it's so great, while they weren't really a big fan of DA:O (and don't get why some people 'hate' DA:II so much).

Personally, I don't think I'm going to hate it, but I'll definitely enjoy DA:O more. I'm actually still not done with DA:O and taking my sweet time playing because I really like the story. When the time comes I'll play and enjoy DA:II as it is. For $5 it'll definitely be worth it.

 

[Dumac]

Personally, I don't think I'm going to hate it, but I'll definitely enjoy DA:O more.

No, you don't understand. Most of the issues in DA2 show up the longer you play it. I bet by the end (if you make it that far), you may have a different opinion.

 

[Bateluer]

Personally, I don't think I'm going to hate it, but I'll definitely enjoy DA:O more. I'm actually still not done with DA:O and taking my sweet time playing because I really like the story. When the time comes I'll play and enjoy DA:II as it is. For $5 it'll definitely be worth it.

Get an act or two into it and post your impressions.

 

[Kalmah]

I would prefer Bioware to just go back to the classics with a top-down view of pre-rendered scenery and text conversations.

This way, with graphics and everything flashy out of the way they can focus on pumping out some classic rpg fun steadily.

Release the engine, then make game after game after game in DLC fashion and I would be all over it. Of course the skill/spell system would have to be immense and awesomely customizable for this to work.

You get the benefit of Baldur's Gate quality games that are coming out brand new on a regular basis all while being able to play it on that old laptop you have laying around to play anywhere.

 

[thespyder]

Personally, I don't think I'm going to hate it, but I'll definitely enjoy DA:O more. I'm actually still not done with DA:O and taking my sweet time playing because I really like the story. When the time comes I'll play and enjoy DA:II as it is. For $5 it'll definitely be worth it.

I am usually pretty tolerant of "Changes" in games and try to give most stuff a "Chance". I have all four platforms and play various games on each of them. And enjoy them for what they are.

With that having been said, I really TRIED to like DA2. I tried so very hard. Even to the point of playing it (part way) three separate times just to see if my own personal biases were the cause of the problem.

As has already been stated, try playing through to act 3 and get back to us. Once you have faced the 20th warehouse with the exact same layout but with different monsters or realized that tactics and combat position were completely removed from the equation in favor of wave after wave of graphically exploding corpses and toons jumping around like circus acrobats, get back to us and let us know what you think then.

 

[PrayForDeath]

I would prefer Bioware to just go back to the classics with a top-down view of pre-rendered scenery and text conversations.

This way, with graphics and everything flashy out of the way they can focus on pumping out some classic rpg fun steadily.

Release the engine, then make game after game after game in DLC fashion and I would be all over it. Of course the skill/spell system would have to be immense and awesomely customizable for this to work.

You get the benefit of Baldur's Gate quality games that are coming out brand new on a regular basis all while being able to play it on that old laptop you have laying around to play anywhere.

This might be the greatest idea ever, but pitching it to EA's execs and getting their approvals is next to impossible. They'd much rather produce AAA flashy titles to appease the masses.

 

[Arg Clin]

I would prefer Bioware to just go back to the classics with a top-down view of pre-rendered scenery and text conversations.

This way, with graphics and everything flashy out of the way they can focus on pumping out some classic rpg fun steadily.

Release the engine, then make game after game after game in DLC fashion and I would be all over it. Of course the skill/spell system would have to be immense and awesomely customizable for this to work.

You get the benefit of Baldur's Gate quality games that are coming out brand new on a regular basis all while being able to play it on that old laptop you have laying around to play anywhere.

I think Bioware struck the right balance in DA:O by adding cinematics and voice acting without loosing the traditional feel of a CRPG.

I don't think text conversations is the way to go - in fact I thought the voice acting was one of the things that made DA:O great.

What Bioware/EA did in DA2 - consolization dumb-down with dialogue wheel and a very linear story - isn't the inevitable consequence of adding cinematics and voice acting. Bioware themselves has already showed this with DA:O, as well has others, e.g. the Witcher series.

 

[Borealis7]

there could be a very simple solution to all of this, similar to what The Witcher had.
The developers could add something like a "hardcore" mode, where health doesn't regenerate unless healed, characters can die (like BG2) and be resurrected, you have total control over all stats and companions stats and gear...in effect, give the player total control ad let him deal with it. perhaps this wont save the likes of DA2 but future games can have a normal mode which is consolized like any other game, and a hardcore mode (not only on the PC, but in consoles as well) for those who want it.
i dont believe the extra effort would be that much greater then say porting the whole game from console to PC.

 

[Red Storm]

there could be a very simple solution to all of this, similar to what The Witcher had.
The developers could add something like a "hardcore" mode, where health doesn't regenerate unless healed, characters can die (like BG2) and be resurrected, you have total control over all stats and companions stats and gear...in effect, give the player total control ad let him deal with it. perhaps this wont save the likes of DA2 but future games can have a normal mode which is consolized like any other game, and a hardcore mode (not only on the PC, but in consoles as well) for those who want it.
i dont believe the extra effort would be that much greater then say porting the whole game from console to PC.

Unfortunately that doesn't solve the biggest problems with DA2 (and probably every Bioware/EA RPG going forward), which are:

Once you have faced the 20th warehouse with the exact same layout but with different monsters or realized that tactics and combat position were completely removed from the equation in favor of wave after wave of graphically exploding corpses and toons jumping around like circus acrobats, get back to us and let us know what you think then.