"I Don't get all the hate for Dragon Age 2" - Take 2

[Wardawg1001]

You guys are crazy. I have trouble believing any of this. It sounds like rantings about conspiracy theories to me.

My experiences (not in the software industry, mind you) with takeovers are that if you know what you are doing and are successful at it, all the parent company wants is that you keep doing it, and keep making them money. Unless EA is a strange company, I have trouble believing that they were micromanaging to the point where they told Bioware to make all those radical changes to the game.

It's only when a company is unsuccessful and they are bought out because of that that when the buying company's execs have to step in and make radical changes, and even then, it to the way you do business, not necessarily to the individual products you are selling.

I have trouble with it as well. I do think EA had a hand in what happened with DA2, but unlike many here, I suspect a lot of the blame lies with Bioware as well (something that can never really be proven, as we'll never know the many discussions and decisions that were made by Bioware). That said, EA does have somewhat of a reputation of buying up successful companies and driving the quality of their products into the ground.

 

[Bateluer]

I have trouble with it as well. I do think EA had a hand in what happened with DA2, but unlike many here, I suspect a lot of the blame lies with Bioware as well (something that can never really be proven, as we'll never know the many discussions and decisions that were made by Bioware). That said, EA does have somewhat of a reputation of buying up successful companies and driving the quality of their products into the ground.

This is the biggest reason right there why people blame EA. They have reputation to meddle with their developers too, setting time limits, budget limits, only allowing X number of patches, and sometimes outright replacing staff that disagrees with them.

EA wants to make money. They see MW3, for example, selling millions of copies and want all their games to do that. In the first week.

Edit - When I have DA2 open, and my mail client Thunderbird running the background, every time an email arrives, DA2 gets knocked out of full screen mode and into windowed mode. To re-enable full screen mode, I have uncheck the Full Screen option, save, back out, go back into Options, reselect it and save it. Anyone else? Seems like a stupid bug.

 

[Rifter]

Um, the suggestion is that all of the change in direction was mandated by EA. that it wasn't Bioware at all that wanted to change things in this manner. Which is why people are blaming EA, not Bioware.

As for the fact that EA owning Bioware was not "Hostile", goes to show that people really don't understand the nuances of the business. When a company buys another, even in "Friendly" "Mergers" doesn't necessarily mean that the DEVS and designers in the one company really wanted it. merely that the Board didn't oppose it. And it could have happened for any of a number of reasons, not the least of which is the ability to pay their employees on a long term basis (not necessarily greed).

And as for Bioware standing up to EA, when a company owns another, sure the ownee "Can" say we want to do X, Y, Z. And hopefully they will be heard. Hopefully the Owner company will listen. And in most cases where the parent company has any sense, that happens. And it is also true that, if the DEVS and programmers who actually make the magic had a difference of opinion from management, they could start looking for new jobs. But who wants to do that?

But the true reality of the matter is EA had a different vision of DA2 than was originally in DA:O. That vision held out, irrespective of what Bioware may have wanted or didn't want. there may have been some hand shaking. there may even have been some grumbling. We don't know. But given Bioware's track record prior to DA2 (and ME2), I personally believe I have reason to suspect that the changes that made DA2 as bad as it was came from sources that were not involved in previous endeavours. that may make me naive, but I think it is reasonable to suspect, all things being equal.

Of course the entire discussion is moot. We got what we got. And EA owns Bioware. And the whole DA franchise lost a good deal of credibility such that quite a lot of former Converts will think twice before blindly purchasing any further DA products.

Could not have said this better myself. Just because the board sold out has nothing to do with the devs themselves.

 

[darkewaffle]

This is the biggest reason right there why people blame EA. They have reputation to meddle with their developers too, setting time limits, budget limits, only allowing X number of patches, and sometimes outright replacing staff that disagrees with them.

EA wants to make money. They see MW3, for example, selling millions of copies and want all their games to do that. In the first week.

Edit - When I have DA2 open, and my mail client Thunderbird running the background, every time an email arrives, DA2 gets knocked out of full screen mode and into windowed mode. To re-enable full screen mode, I have uncheck the Full Screen option, save, back out, go back into Options, reselect it and save it. Anyone else? Seems like a stupid bug.

Just disable the notifications. Or don't run Thunderbird in admin mode I'd guess. Nothing to do with the game really, popup notifications have never played nicely with fullscreen apps.

 

[MrDuma]

well mainly because people would expect something more from a game that revolutionize the RPG series

 

[Bateluer]

Just disable the notifications. Or don't run Thunderbird in admin mode I'd guess. Nothing to do with the game really, popup notifications have never played nicely with fullscreen apps.

Its never affected any full screen game before. The most I get on other games is either a temporary flickering popup notification in the game or the 'chime' sound. Its never knocked any game out of full screen mode before, even when I alt tab out to check it.

 

[darkewaffle]

I've had problems with popups from Trillian and Winamp in NWN, FFXI, Lineage2, UT2k4 and some Source games. Sometimes it lags, sometimes it crashes, sometimes it just loses focus. They just don't play nicely together.

 

[thespyder]

...et all...

Look. All I am saying is this. The people at Bioware have a long and distinguished history of making good solid RPG games up to and including DA:O. EA on the other hand has a long and distinguished history of buying up good companies, implementing severe restrictions and generally changing the direction of game franchises much to their detriment. EA bought Bioware long about the time they started making DA2. DA2 has a CLEAR direction change in directions that Bioware has never shown in the past.

Additionally, EA is a corporation. It is mainly comprised of suits who are more interested in quarterly profits, fiscal growth, share holder reinvestment and profits and the bottom line.

Bioware, by and large, is a group of developers who got together to form a company that makes games.

All things being equal, it is most reasonable to deduce who the bad guy is here.

 

[Bateluer]

I am officially annoyed with the combat. Fight three baddies, 4 more materialize out of no where, kill them, 3 more teleport in. Ugh.

 

[Red Storm]

I am officially annoyed with the combat. Fight three baddies, 4 more materialize out of no where, kill them, 3 more teleport in. Ugh.

Yep yep that was incredibly annoying and an immediate immersion breaker every time I saw it.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Look. All I am saying is this. The people at Bioware have a long and distinguished history of making good solid RPG games up to and including DA:O. EA on the other hand has a long and distinguished history of buying up good companies, implementing severe restrictions and generally changing the direction of game franchises much to their detriment. EA bought Bioware long about the time they started making DA2. DA2 has a CLEAR direction change in directions that Bioware has never shown in the past.

Additionally, EA is a corporation. It is mainly comprised of suits who are more interested in quarterly profits, fiscal growth, share holder reinvestment and profits and the bottom line.

Bioware, by and large, is a group of developers who got together to form a company that makes games.

All things being equal, it is most reasonable to deduce who the bad guy is here.

Well, I blame both companies. EA obviously because of all the other companies they have bought up and so forth. But I still blame Bioware. They must have known what they were getting into when they sold out (and I mean that in the worst sense of sold out) to EA. It seems Bioware was more interested in profits than in continuing to make quality games. Couldnt Bioware at least have negotiated for some sort of artistic control of their franchises? I guess we will never know what really went on behind the scenes, or if Bioware could have continued as a profitable corporation on its own.

But bottom line I guess is that the Bioware name on an RPG no longer insures that it is a quality game. And I am really concerned that they will turn ME3 into a consolized Modern Warfare in space. Please Bioware, just one more good game before you go totally to the dark side!

 

[Bateluer]

Okay, I managed to play through the entire game.

Here's my thoughts. May contain spoilers.

Spoiler

There are some things I like about the game, specifically with regards to companions. I like the Friendship/Rivalry more than simply 'Influence'. But its woefully underdeveloped in DA2. There's barely any conversations with companions, and almost always at their HQs. I can only recall a very paltry few 'random' conversations. You'll never be able to max out Rivalry/Friendship with all characters because you need to have certain companions in your party during certain quests, and what gives Friendship with one gives Rivalry with another. This isn't inherently bad, its more 'realistic'. You can't be friends with everyone. This aspect forces you to decide fairly early on who you want as a friend and who you don't. Characters with insufficient friendship/rivalry can and will leave your party permanently. I feel this is an aspect that should be implemented in future DA titles, but expanded on much more.

I did like some of the cameos from DAO characters though, but some didn't make sense. Zevran's was cool. King Alistair's was stupid. Why come all the way to Kirkwall for a 5 minute conversation with Meredith and the Champion and then leave? My import from DAO didn't allow Nathaniel to make an appearance, and I only saw Leilana in the end cutscene.

The story was generally good, and I found the conflict between the templars and mages entertaining. Though there's a number of serious problems and holes in it. I chose to back the mages almost from the get go, but there were many, many instances where I'd be attacked by both mages and templars, even right into the final battles in the gallows. What the hell, mages, I'm on your side! Why are you attacking me!? Even when I sought out the rebel mages and templar group led by Thrask under direction from the First Enchanter, they attacked me and I end up killing the entire group save for one. Given the treatment of mages by the templars in Kirkwall, its no surprise they were pissed off and resorted to blood magic at every. Single. Encounter. Still irritating when I'm trying to defend my actions to my companions when I'm not getting any support from the mages. And I wish they'd done more with characters I'd saved previously, felt like there was a lot more they could have done and didn't even bother.

Story could have used some fixing to address these, but generally, it was better than most story lines in most games. I'd say its below Bioware's usual effort, even though it does follow their template.

Combat. Ugh. Terrible. I have no idea why they decided to scrap the combat animations in DAO for DA2, there were lightyears better than this crap. Watching my rogue fight was almost laughable, very herky jerky. Then there's the respawn thing I mentioned before. Every time you get in a fight, expect multiple waves of bad guys to 'materialize' out of thin air repeatedly before the battle 'ends'. As I, and a few others said, this is a total immersion breaker. I despised the player character 'templates'. If I'm a warrior, I get two handed weapons or weapon&shield only. Being a rogue is the only way to get dual wielding, and only with daggers. Lame. All the mages spells kinda sucked, from the staff fired bolts, to their spells. Most of the time, I couldn't tell the difference between a staff fired shot and an elemental spell, for example. They look the same. And its rapid fire too, machine gun staves, I guess.

The city of Kirkwall itself looked cool and interesting. If you'd only been there for one Act. It got progressively less interesting as the game does on. Every setting was like this, the same. Every 'warehouse' you enter is the same. Every 'sewer' you enter is the same. Every 'lair' you enter is the same. Every cave you enter is the same. Every Deep Roads section you enter is the same. Its cool the first time, and then blah. Every one is also usually a straight path from Point A to Point B, if that makes sense, you just follow the trail/path/whatever and you'll get to wear you're supposed to end up. Even with that, if you look at the map, there's usually large chunks of area on the map that are inaccessible to you. There's usually a door, but its not interact-able. Almost makes it feel like the area was left unfinished. There's so much content that gets re-used in this game, its no wonder their dev cycle was so short. Every bad guy is essentially exactly the same, though sometimes they'll have a different name floating above their heads. Um, some variety would be a little nice.

Performance issues. There were a number of places in the game where it'd simply freeze for several moments. With DAO, I installed several high res texture packs, but the game still runs perfectly fluid on my 3Ghz C2D and Radeon 6950 2GB at 1920x. And that was with maxed out AA. DA2, nope. DA2 manages to generally look worse, but actually be unplayable on higher settings. I had to turn back AA down to 2x to maintain consistent frame rates. And even then, in the larger battles, the game would slow to a chug. In the final battle with Meredith, once her health bottomed out and the death cutscene kicked in, the game froze. Things still happened, but I only saw a frozen image of the very start. When it unfroze, the templars were backing away and my party was walking out the door. Watched the final video with Varric, then the game crashed to the desktop.

I did pay only ~15 dollars for this game, however, if I'd payed its original MSRP, I'd probably earn myself another 'vacation' on the Bioware Community Forums. I've played through DAO 3x, and I'll likely play through it again. DA2 . . . this will probably be my only play through.

DA2 is NOT the route I want to see the Dragon Age franchise go, but that really seems to be beating a dead horse in this thread.

 

[zerogear]

I personally think they should've ended the game after the 2nd Act. 3rd Act was just plain horrible.

 

[thespyder]

DA2 is NOT the route I want to see the Dragon Age franchise go, but that really seems to be beating a dead horse in this thread.

This is more or less the general feel around here. At least it is my opinion. Best to play DA:O again but with a different character. Much more satisfying (to me).

 

[Bateluer]

This is more or less the general feel around here. At least it is my opinion. Best to play DA:O again but with a different character. Much more satisfying (to me).

I haven't beaten DAO as a mage yet . . .

 

[micrometers]

if dragon age 2 is to dragon age 1 as mass effect 2 is to mass effect 1...I think I might like it a lot.

 

[micrometers]

I think ME2 also spent a large portion of its dev time under EA's rule. Explains some things, but there was enough Bioware in it to keep it good. Have to see about ME3. :/


I did bite the bullet on DA2 from Amazon though, have to see if it gets me another vacation from the Bioware Community forums. When I ranted about how shitty Witch Hunt was, I got a week ban.

Having suffered through Mass Effect 1 and liking ME2 far more, all I can say is this:

GO EA. YOU GUYS RULE.

srsly, I hated dragon age origin. The combat was slow and clumsy, the art style wasn't very good, the storyline bored me to tears. everything I've seen of the vids in DA2 show it to be far better.

 

[Zorander]

if dragon age 2 is to dragon age 1 as mass effect 2 is to mass effect 1...I think I might like it a lot.

No, just no. ME2 was IMO a great and deserving sequel to ME1.

DA2 is just a dumbed-down, action-pumped game that seeks the attention of the wider gaming community (i.e. casual console users) instead of the RPG community and has the name 'Dragon Age' tagged onto it.

 

[Bateluer]

Having suffered through Mass Effect 1 and liking ME2 far more, all I can say is this:

GO EA. YOU GUYS RULE.

srsly, I hated dragon age origin. The combat was slow and clumsy, the art style wasn't very good, the storyline bored me to tears. everything I've seen of the vids in DA2 show it to be far better.

Go back to your Xbox.

Also, someone check his IP, sounds like he works for EA. They've a history of posting positive reviews for their shitty products.

 

[Dumac]

Go back to your Xbox.

Also, someone check his IP, sounds like he works for EA. They've a history of posting positive reviews for their shitty products.

He's just a really obvious troll. He posts crap like that all around.

 

[PrayForDeath]

if dragon age 2 is to dragon age 1 as mass effect 2 is to mass effect 1...I think I might like it a lot.

It's not.

And fwiw, Dragon Age and Mass Effect are developed by different teams within Bioware.

 

[thespyder]

He's just a really obvious troll. He posts crap like that all around.

Of course the other possibility is that he/she is merely that elusive "Lowest common denominotor" that EA is targeting with it's gaming designs. You know, that which is dazzled by pretty colors yet couldn't figure out the tactics of escaping from a wet paper bag.

I haven't beaten DAO as a mage yet . . .

Mage was my first run through. The Mage run through adds some sense to some of the stuff that goes on, like encountering that Blood mage in the dungeon. Also the whole thing with going into the Fade makes more sense if your main is a Mage.

 

[micrometers]

Of course the other possibility is that he/she is merely that elusive "Lowest common denominotor" that EA is targeting with it's gaming designs. You know, that which is dazzled by pretty colors yet couldn't figure out the tactics of escaping from a wet paper bag.



Mage was my first run through. The Mage run through adds some sense to some of the stuff that goes on, like encountering that Blood mage in the dungeon. Also the whole thing with going into the Fade makes more sense if your main is a Mage.

yeah pretty colors and art style matter. I'd argue that they matter more than gameplay in a many respects, especially for single player games where you're competing against a pre-programmed CPU.

In competition against living people, like back in the quake days, people tuned down "eye candy" all the time in order to get a higher frame rate and pwn their opponent.

dragon age of course is a single player game. yes I care about art style more than difficulty in gameplay. It's all pretend anyways, why make it frustrating?

 

[micrometers]

It's not.

And fwiw, Dragon Age and Mass Effect are developed by different teams within Bioware.

ah, but with the EA Games magic touch for the sequels.

 

[Arg Clin]

For DA3, Bioware just needs to go back to more or less everything they did with Dragon Age Origins. Update the graphics and tweak the UI and controls, but leave the fundamentals be. Scrap more or less everything from DA2 - consider it a failed experiment. (truly great lessons often come from failure - DA2 was an epic lesson in "don't fix it if it ain't broken")

Ofcourse everything also stand or fall with the creative process - the writing. But I am quite sure the team can do it - they do have a long history of great writing since BG.

I fail to see the wisdom in Mike Laidlaws idea that Dragon Age should be more about a "time and place" than a focused story or hero. To me that sounds like corporate talk to ensure a longliving franchise than trying to achieve artistic greatness. And it's silly because they're hardly mutually excluding.

DA:O still has a massive base of devoted fans, who'd be quite excited about true DA:O sequel material. Considering the massive number of copies of DA:O sold, I cannot believe that there isn't a commercially interesting opportunity in DA:O sequel material - even if it might be a bit tricky to write and execute due to the large number of possible endings.