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I changed my view on illegal immigrants.

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cyclohexane said:
Why not voting? Current citizens aren't doing it - 60% turnouts for elections and look at the trash voted into Congress. Maybe newly minted citizens will be more informed and care more.
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I wish this was true but from what I've seen its wishful thinking. I work with a bunch of (presumed) illegals and they don't make any attempt to even learn english, let alone get involved in our political system. Where I live which is a medium sized city there are probably many thousands of illegals.

They have their own community and have everything they need in spanish available to them, including radio and tv stations. They are just going about their business here in the U.S. but they are not assimilating into our culture, as their community here is large enough that they don't have to.
 
Zaap said:
Nice try, but it's already been shown that the numbers are fudged.

The trick they've been pulling is counting the same people multiple times, whereas before they didn't.

IE: they catch a Juan at the border on Monday, deport him on Tuesday- that's one deportation.

Juan sneaks back in on Wednesday, and is deported again on Thursday- by the old standards, that's still one person, one deportation. By the new fudged standards, it's two deportations. You could argue that's technically true, but since the old standard didn't count this way, you're not really increasing deportations, just counting them differently.

Now of course, you being you, you won't comprehend a thing I just wrote.
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This was one of the more reasoned rebuttals that I was able to find and guess what they came up with? Here's an example:

Padding the Numbers: The Mexican Interior Repatriation Program

  • From 2009 through 2011, the Obama Administration resumed a voluntary humanitarian interior repatriation program called the Mexican Interior Repatriation Program (MIRP). First initiated in 2004, MIRP voluntarily returned Mexican nationals apprehended by the U.S. Border Patrol in the Yuma and Tucson sectors.
  • Since 2008, MIRP statistics have been included in ICE’s overall removal numbers. Without this program, the deportations statistics would be tallied by the U.S. Border Patrol instead of ICE.
    • Since 2004, more than 116,000 Mexican nationals have been returned under MIRP. In 2009, MIRP returned 10,560 illegal Mexican nationals. MIRP accounted for 2.7 percent of ICE removals (389,834).
    • In 2010, MIRP returned a record 23,384 illegal Mexican nationals. Over 6,500 of those illegal Mexican nationals were included by running the program five weeks longer than it had previously run. MIRP accounted for over 6 percent of ICE removals in 2010 (392,862).
    • In 2011, MIRP returned 8,893 illegal Mexican immigrants. MIRP accounted for just over 2 percent of ICE removals in 2011 (396,906).
  • When both ATEP and MIRP removals are subtracted from ICE’s published removal totals, the 2011 removal total drops from 396,906 to roughly 351,426 – 4.9% below 2008 levels, 10% below 2009 levels, and 11.5% below 2010 levels.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...stration-inflates-deportation-statistics.html

I think the numbers at least keep him running pretty even with Bush overall.

btw, lolers to you too. 😉
 
Victorian Gray said:
This was one of the more reasoned rebuttals that I was able to find and guess what they came up with? Here's an example:

Padding the Numbers: The Mexican Interior Repatriation Program

  • From 2009 through 2011, the Obama Administration resumed a voluntary humanitarian interior repatriation program called the Mexican Interior Repatriation Program (MIRP). First initiated in 2004, MIRP voluntarily returned Mexican nationals apprehended by the U.S. Border Patrol in the Yuma and Tucson sectors.
  • Since 2008, MIRP statistics have been included in ICE’s overall removal numbers. Without this program, the deportations statistics would be tallied by the U.S. Border Patrol instead of ICE.
    • Since 2004, more than 116,000 Mexican nationals have been returned under MIRP. In 2009, MIRP returned 10,560 illegal Mexican nationals. MIRP accounted for 2.7 percent of ICE removals (389,834).
    • In 2010, MIRP returned a record 23,384 illegal Mexican nationals. Over 6,500 of those illegal Mexican nationals were included by running the program five weeks longer than it had previously run. MIRP accounted for over 6 percent of ICE removals in 2010 (392,862).
    • In 2011, MIRP returned 8,893 illegal Mexican immigrants. MIRP accounted for just over 2 percent of ICE removals in 2011 (396,906).
  • When both ATEP and MIRP removals are subtracted from ICE’s published removal totals, the 2011 removal total drops from 396,906 to roughly 351,426 – 4.9% below 2008 levels, 10% below 2009 levels, and 11.5% below 2010 levels.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...stration-inflates-deportation-statistics.html

I think the numbers at least keep him running pretty even with Bush overall.

btw, lolers to you too. 😉
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Hard to say. As your quote points out, both MIRP and ATEP (Alien Transfer Exit Program, by which the Border Patrol apprehends someone attempting to cross and simply drives them to the nearest legal crossing point and makes them walk back) were not counted in deportation numbers prior to 2008. These were people turned back, not people deported. By counting these numbers as deportation, both Bush (who was a big amnesty guy) & Obama have been able to inflate their deportation numbers while actually deporting fewer people.
 
werepossum said:
Hard to say. As your quote points out, both MIRP and ATEP (Alien Transfer Exit Program, by which the Border Patrol apprehends someone attempting to cross and simply drives them to the nearest legal crossing point and makes them walk back) were not counted in deportation numbers prior to 2008. These were people turned back, not people deported. By counting these numbers as deportation, both Bush (who was a big amnesty guy) & Obama have been able to inflate their deportation numbers while actually deporting fewer people.
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To be honest illegal immigration in the US isn't something I pay a lot of attention to. So, don't know a lot about numbers, strategies and so on. What I can find, including the rational 'debunking' stuff, at least shows that the OMG! OBAMA IS THE ANTI CHRIST! AND HE"S OPENED THE BORDERS UP TO HORDES OF RAVENING MEXICANS!!!!! for what it is.

Basically I'm simply saying he's at least no worse than what went before.
 
Victorian Gray said:
To be honest illegal immigration in the US isn't something I pay a lot of attention to. So, don't know a lot about numbers, strategies and so on. What I can find, including the rational 'debunking' stuff, at least shows that the OMG! OBAMA IS THE ANTI CHRIST! AND HE"S OPENED THE BORDERS UP TO HORDES OF RAVENING MEXICANS!!!!! for what it is.

Basically I'm simply saying he's at least no worse than what went before.
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I don't think he's any worse than Bush, who wanted a blanket amnesty.
 
Victorian Gray said:
To be honest illegal immigration in the US isn't something I pay a lot of attention to. So, don't know a lot about numbers, strategies and so on. What I can find, including the rational 'debunking' stuff, at least shows that the OMG! OBAMA IS THE ANTI CHRIST! AND HE"S OPENED THE BORDERS UP TO HORDES OF RAVENING MEXICANS!!!!! for what it is.

Basically I'm simply saying he's at least no worse than what went before.
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Bush wasn't better.

A lot of republicans aren't better then democrats. They are in the pockets of big business that wants more workers to reduce wages.

Democrats just want more voters.
 
You are making a huge assumption when you don't think Democrats are in the pockets of big business.

Maybe you are blinded by the light . . . .

My take on immigration is the feds should make all the states with huge amounts of illegal immigrants be responsible for the education and welfare from the state budget and not the federal budget. Some states choose to be a haven so make them pay for their own illegals. Either that or make stiff penalties for hiring illegals and put all their employers in jail and give them gigantic fines.

The federal govt has also complicated the problem by making it hard for people to immigrate legally. I would let people immigrate only if they pay a large fee even if they have to pay a higher tax for the first 10 years. It takes a lot of infrastructure to take care of indigent migrants.
 
I dont care if the US gets "taken over". I just dont want it to be done by criminal drug-dealing murderers.

Apparently thats too much to ask from Democrats, which is why they keep using the phrase racist xenophobe.

If most illegals were whites from Russia or Yugoslovia the Dems wouldn't be using all these supposedly "logical" arguments for supporting illegal aliens.
They would say Fuck Em and ignore the issue.
 
shortylickens said:
I dont care if the US gets "taken over". I just dont want it to be done by criminal drug-dealing murderers.

Apparently thats too much to ask from Democrats, which is why they keep using the phrase racist xenophobe.

If most illegals were whites from Russia or Yugoslovia the Dems wouldn't be using all these supposedly "logical" arguments for supporting illegal aliens.
They would say Fuck Em and ignore the issue.
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Yes, nobody wants any stinky Euro illegal immigrants! 😉
 
nehalem256 said:
No country in the world allows unchecked entry through its borders. It is pretty much literally insane.

I mean something like 10% of the population of Mexico is illegally in the US.
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Nicely presented to imply that an actual 10% of the Mexican population has 'overrun' America.

For the viewing audience, Mexican citizens comprise roughly 52 % of all 'illegals'. Actual numbers are around 6 million of roughly 12 million 'illegals' in total. Mexico has a population of a bit over 120 million.
 
compuwiz1 said:
Yes, nobody wants any stinky Euro illegal immigrants! 😉
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In many ways the only things that ever changes is which ethnic group Americans don't like at any particular point in time.

"Irish immigrants arrived in masses on overcrowded ships, branded Coffin Ships because the conditions were so deplorable; these ships were, for the most part, not even sea worthy. (The History Place, n.d.) Even as the immigrants docked in American ports they learned life would continue to be a fight of endurance, a fight for survival. Many unfortunate immigrants found themselves snatched by dock loafers who preyed on the ignorance of immigrants; these dock loafers who would compel the Irish immigrants: men, women, and children, into favored tenant houses, charging the immigrants outrageous fees for this "service." Many immigrants remained too impoverished to escape or move on. (Stolarik, 1988)"

and

"The Irish were strangers in a strange land: rejected and unwanted. Ads for employment most often included the stipulation that "No Irish Need Apply." They were forced to live in shacks or huts partly due to their poverty but also because of redlining; they were considered to be "bad" for the neighborhood. Further emphasizing their segregation, their living conditions propagated sickness and disease, ushering an early death because health care was unavailable to them. Their dress, illiteracy, and brogue provoked ridicule in the new land, and their unfamiliarity with plumbing and running water brought about scorn and contributed the sicknesses and diseases that killed the majority of newborns."

http://voices.yahoo.com/irish-immigration-united-states-their-subsequent-865647.html
 
michal1980 said:
giving amnesty and citizenship to 11+ million illegals is not unchecked entry?


how many millions would it take?
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They can't get amnesty without "checking in," ie applying for citizenship. Even Reagans amnesty bill required that.
Future immigration policy, regardless of leniency, will always require registration at point of entry and screening for criminals, etc.

Do you claim that the pro weed legalization crowd don't want to card minors too?
 
Vic said:
They can't get amnesty without "checking in," ie applying for citizenship. Even Reagans amnesty bill required that.
Future immigration policy, regardless of leniency, will always require registration at point of entry and screening for criminals, etc.

Do you claim that the pro weed legalization crowd don't want to card minors too?
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so your all for unchecked entry, as long as after words they 'checkin'
 
michal1980 said:
I know stating your opinion is now trolling.
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No, you're intentionally misrepresenting my position for the purpose of continuing the discussion. That is trolling, by definition.

I repeat, no one is arguing for unchecked entry. The 11 million in the country are "unchecked" because our current immigration policy didn't allow them to, but they came anyway. I know that you think you can stop them from coming, just like drug warriors think they can stop every one from doing drugs, or gun grabbers think think they can get all the guns, but you can't and you never will.
So ironically, from a practical real life standpoint, I'm more in favor of having them check in than you are.
 
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