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I changed my view on illegal immigrants.

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Tango said:
You are confusing GDP and GDP per capita.

Switzerland (~$79.000) and Sweden (~$55,000) have higher GDP capita than the United States, whereas Mexico is near the mid-bottom of the list (~$9,000).
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I've already addressed this, and of course anyone knows the difference between GDP and GDP per capita.

I was responding to the idiotic notion of 'building up' the world's 11th wealthiest nation as being a solution to anything. Mexico has PLENTY of money and plenty of resources- more of each than most first world nations. But their system sucks. The ruling class there has more money than they know what do with- but they know one thing they don't have to do with it thanks to idiot Americans- take care of their own people. They know stupid people in America will do that for them- not only do it, but wring their hands and BEG to do it- even when it means turning their own jobs into shit!

So 'building it up' is a sick joke- you'd just be putting more money into the hands of the same people that keep many of the citizens mired in poverty and then convince them to go to the US and send money back, because that's the easier way out (and INFINITELY more profitable for the Mexican ruling class) than to reform the wretched, corrupt system, which is what really needs to happen.

Too many Americans are willingly the nation of Mexico's bitch: they think it's a poor country (it's not, and as I pointed out, not by a LONG fucking shot- it's richer than rich) and they wring their hands believing they have responsibility to take on the poor of Mexico- when all they are doing is making the corrupt fatcats there even richer, and laughing even harder at how completely stupid their next door neighbor is.

The truth is, a revolution needs to take place in Mexico where the common citizens take back control of their nation, and where individual liberty and prosperity can thrive and grow. But the corrupt government has a safety valve that keeps that from happening- the stupidity and gullibility of Americans who allow their own country to be pimped to provide an alternative to the pressure building up that would lead to revolution. Every American that supports amnesty is actually doing a long-term injustice to both Mexico (which would be far better off after a revolution that brought true reform) and to the US itself, as they allow fatcats on both sides of the border to play them like simpletons, and get even richer by exploiting the cheap labor supply.
 
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Zaap said:
I was responding to the idiotic notion of 'building up' the world's 11th wealthiest nation as being a solution to anything.
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Yep living in #67 Per capita GDP looks really good compared to #6 next door. Mexico has many issues but you are glossing over the vast difference in per capita income between Mexico and the US.
 
I read an article about towns rising up and throwing out corrupt politicians and drug cartels in Mexico.

That is what Mexico needs, patriotic Mexicans. Not amnesty.
 
brycejones said:
Yep living in #67 Per capita GDP looks really good compared to #6 next door. Mexico has many issues but you are glossing over the vast difference in per capita income between Mexico and the US.
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And the people coming over illegally aren't the ones that are from the top. It's the bottom, that's desperate for a way to survive and need to send money back home.
 
JTsyo said:
And the people coming over illegally aren't the ones that are from the top. It's the bottom, that's desperate for a way to survive and need to send money back home.
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And what America clearly desperately needs is more low-skill workers!!!!!:thumbsup:
 
Agent11 said:
I read an article about towns rising up and throwing out corrupt politicians and drug cartels in Mexico.

That is what Mexico needs, patriotic Mexicans. Not amnesty.
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Well shit, we've spent a grand total of 50 years bringing freedom and democracy to countries around the world, why have we never done it with Mexico?
 
werepossum said:
Of course not, but I would prefer American culture to Mexican/South American culture.
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I don't know. I do like Latin American food. And the real stuff too, not the bland Americanized beans and cheese crap.

Seriously though, we are now at the heart of the issue, which is that you want the government to protect your culture through immigration policy. I respectfully disagree. If your culture is worth protecting, it should be able to protect itself.
 
Zaap said:
I've already addressed this, and of course anyone knows the difference between GDP and GDP per capita.

I was responding to the idiotic notion of 'building up' the world's 11th wealthiest nation as being a solution to anything. Mexico has PLENTY of money and plenty of resources- more of each than most first world nations. But their system sucks. The ruling class there has more money than they know what do with- but they know one thing they don't have to do with it thanks to idiot Americans- take care of their own people. They know stupid people in America will do that for them- not only do it, but wring their hands and BEG to do it- even when it means turning their own jobs into shit!

So 'building it up' is a sick joke- you'd just be putting more money into the hands of the same people that keep many of the citizens mired in poverty and then convince them to go to the US and send money back, because that's the easier way out (and INFINITELY more profitable for the Mexican ruling class) than to reform the wretched, corrupt system, which is what really needs to happen.

Too many Americans are willingly the nation of Mexico's bitch: they think it's a poor country (it's not, and as I pointed out, not by a LONG fucking shot- it's richer than rich) and they wring their hands believing they have responsibility to take on the poor of Mexico- when all they are doing is making the corrupt fatcats there even richer, and laughing even harder at how completely stupid their next door neighbor is.

The truth is, a revolution needs to take place in Mexico where the common citizens take back control of their nation, and where individual liberty and prosperity can thrive and grow. But the corrupt government has a safety valve that keeps that from happening- the stupidity and gullibility of Americans who allow their own country to be pimped to provide an alternative to the pressure building up that would lead to revolution. Every American that supports amnesty is actually doing a long-term injustice to both Mexico (which would be far better off after a revolution that brought true reform) and to the US itself, as they allow fatcats on both sides of the border to play them like simpletons, and get even richer by exploiting the cheap labor supply.
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A rich country is a country with high per capita GDP. Not high GDP.

High GDP can be the result of high population. Which does not make you rich. Otherwise people would be emigrating from Luxembourg to Nigeria.
 
^Another person just waxing over what's already been said about GDP vs per capita GDP.

Mexico is a rich nation. Many of its citizens aren't- but the country/ruling class/government is. Extremely.

By the way, Nigeria is an oil rich nation. It too could be a nation where its citizens enjoy the actual economic prosperity of the country, except once again... shitty system.

Your argument (if in line with the Amnesty mindset) would that Luxembourg should make itself into a poor shithole by allowing Nigerians to be chased into it and turning a large portion of their economy into "jobs Luxembourgians won't do", all so the corrupt regime ruling Nigeria can relax a little easier knowing someone else is taking care of more of their poor citizens for them.
 
Zaap said:
^Another person just waxing over what's already been said about GDP vs per capita GDP.

Mexico is a rich nation. Many of its citizens aren't- but the country/ruling class/government is. Extremely.

By the way, Nigeria is an oil rich nation. It too could be a nation where its citizens enjoy the actual economic prosperity of the country, except once again... shitty system.

Your argument (if in line with the Amnesty mindset) would that Luxembourg should make itself into a poor shithole by allowing Nigerians to be chased into it and turning a large portion of their economy into "jobs Luxembourgians won't do", all so the corrupt regime ruling Nigeria can relax a little easier knowing someone else is taking care of more of their poor citizens for them.
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I never discussed policy, only analysis.
 
The IRS will give illegals taxpayer ID numbers so that they can pay their taxes.
Legal immigrants can get faster citizenship because of military service but this is not available to illegals.
 
Vic said:
I don't know. I do like Latin American food. And the real stuff too, not the bland Americanized beans and cheese crap.

Seriously though, we are now at the heart of the issue, which is that you want the government to protect your culture through immigration policy. I respectfully disagree. If your culture is worth protecting, it should be able to protect itself.
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Fair enough. But as I said in another thread, be sure and ask a Native American how that works out.
 
Vic said:
I don't know. I do like Latin American food. And the real stuff too, not the bland Americanized beans and cheese crap.

Seriously though, we are now at the heart of the issue, which is that you want the government to protect your culture through immigration policy. I respectfully disagree. If your culture is worth protecting, it should be able to protect itself.
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It can protect it self. Through laws. Kick out illegals. And if you cannot, don't let them influence politics.

Besides, what does culture have to do with enforcing ones laws?
 
xj0hnx said:
Abiding by the backlog is fine, but there's no way it's 19 fucking years, there is something missing from that story. We had a couple guys in my unit get their citizenship, and even had one of the ceremonies in Iraq, a couple of the guys were from Mexico, and it had taken one a couple years, and the other several months, but there is no almost two decade "backlog".
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Fuck, if you guys are too lazy to do your own research and instead rely on gut feel and anectodal evidence no wonder the immigration system is so broken. No wonder the country is so broken.

Let me spell it out for you.

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6228.html

GO back to that link, and look at the family quota table in the middle of the page. I'll show you a couple of examples and maybe you can analyze the rest yourself.

First: (F1) Unmarried Sons and Daughters of U.S. Citizens: 23,400 plus any numbers not required for fourth preference.

B. (F2B) Unmarried Sons and Daughters (21 years of age or older) of Permanent Residents: 23% of the overall second preference limitation.

The date listed under the "mexico" column is 9/22/1993 for F1 and 1/4/94 for F2b. That means if someone had applied prior to those dates, their application would be processed today. Which means he/she would have waited 21 years and 20 years respectively their green card application to begin processing. Do you expect them to sit around twiddling their thumbs in the meantime? I thought America was all about hard work and perseverance etc?

As for your friend.. either the rules are different for permanent residence gained through military, or employment. Using the example above and the link, I'll let you figure it out how long it'll take.

Check out the employment backlogs for India and China. You could have a harvard educated MS graduate wait 8 years for a green card while someone from Iran (axis of evil country) can get in at 6 months. This is the reality of the immigration system.
 
^ wait, was that in 1865 or now?

I mean, don't you just hate it when the south gets deprived of its illicit workforces? Such a pity.
 
 
who? said:
When Georgia and Alabama got tough on illegals, the farmers couldn't find anybody to pick the crops.
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Nooo, the farmers couldn't find anybody to pick the crops for what they had been paying. Post an ad for picking crops, $25/hour, and you'll have so many applicants your crops will be endangered.
 
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werepossum said:
Nooo, the farmers couldn't find anybody to pick the crops for what they had been paying. Post an ad for picking crops, $25/hour, and you'll have so many applicants your crops will be endangered.
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Exactly. You have to really spell it out for some folks.

Still its amazing someone wouldn't get the 1865 reference. Spelling it out for those that need it, the low wage.before then was ZILCH (talk about hard to find!) And the exploited illicit labor were SLAVES. (EXTREMELY hard to find in a market made up of willing and legal participants.)
 
werepossum said:
Nooo, the farmers couldn't find anybody to pick the crops for what they had been paying. Post an ad for picking crops, $25/hour, and you'll have so many applicants your crops will be endangered.
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Last week over 1600 people showed up to apply for only 64 jobs paying slightly above minimum wage at a warehouse/shipping company.
After I.C.E. raided a meat packing company, hundreds of Americans stepped in to fill the jobs the illegals were doing, etc,etc,etc.
My father worked in the fields to put himself through med school. My first job had a take home pay of a dollar an hour.
The statement often made that Americans just won't work, IS A LIE!
 
I've known doctors that own farms and work their own land. Americans are stupid to think that Americans don't do farming work, and that such work can't be highly lucrative. Even now, 80% of US farming jobs are done by Americans.

(Think about that- it has to be pointed out to people that the majority of people IN a certain country, do the jobs IN that country. Like that's some unbelievable thing. It's like being amazed that most farming done in France is done by French people, and most farming done in the UK is done by UK citizens and most farming done in Canada... etc. etc. etc.) But lazy, stupid Americans are amazed to learn that even with their desire to import millions of dark-skinned people from somewhere else to do all the work for them, that STILL most work done IN their own country, is by people from their own country. That's one of the things our substandard "education" system has produced.)

Meatpacking jobs used to pay an average of $22 an hour in 1980. Now, after an influx if illegal labor, they pay like $9 an hour. OF COURSE tons of Americans would flock to a meatpacking job that paid the 2014 equivalent of $22 in 1980.

And no, the original wages weren't all thanks to Unions. Unions themselves don't give a shit about the workers or even the industries they leech off of many times- they're some of the biggest supporters of illegal labor and amnesty that you'll find these days, because they're hoping to turn it into more union membership. They care most about more people paying them dues, not the quality or wages of the individual jobs.
 
runzwithsizorz said:
Last week over 1600 people showed up to apply for only 64 jobs paying slightly above minimum wage at a warehouse/shipping company.
After I.C.E. raided a meat packing company, hundreds of Americans stepped in to fill the jobs the illegals were doing, etc,etc,etc.
My father worked in the fields to put himself through med school. My first job had a take home pay of a dollar an hour.
The statement often made that Americans just won't work, IS A LIE!
Click to expand...
Agreed. As a teenager I picked tomatoes for a quarter a basket in the next field from Mexican migrants. There are no jobs Americans won't do, merely jobs Americans won't do for that amount of money.

Zaap said:
I've known doctors that own farms and work their own land. Americans are stupid to think that Americans don't do farming work, and that such work can't be highly lucrative. Even now, 80% of US farming jobs are done by Americans.

(Think about that- it has to be pointed out to people that the majority of people IN a certain country, do the jobs IN that country. Like that's some unbelievable thing. It's like being amazed that most farming done in France is done by French people, and most farming done in the UK is done by UK citizens and most farming done in Canada... etc. etc. etc.) But lazy, stupid Americans are amazed to learn that even with their desire to import millions of dark-skinned people from somewhere else to do all the work for them, that STILL most work done IN their own country, is by people from their own country. That's one of the things our substandard "education" system has produced.)

Meatpacking jobs used to pay an average of $22 an hour in 1980. Now, after an influx if illegal labor, they pay like $9 an hour. OF COURSE tons of Americans would flock to a meatpacking job that paid the 2014 equivalent of $22 in 1980.

And no, the original wages weren't all thanks to Unions. Unions themselves don't give a shit about the workers or even the industries they leech off of many times- they're some of the biggest supporters of illegal labor and amnesty that you'll find these days, because they're hoping to turn it into more union membership. They care most about more people paying them dues, not the quality or wages of the individual jobs.
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Well said. Illegal immigration has significantly dropped wages in a LOT of jobs. Automation and global arbitrage have done the same. Low wages (by either method) serve some good as they allow people to consume more, but unlike automation they don't increase societal production.
 
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