I can't take this programming class much longer....

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: torpid
This class sounds like it has little applicability to the real world. Searching through man pages to learn an OS might be similar to the real world. In the real world, though, if you are the sole programmer who is intructed to immediately learn a new technology and write something in it, then it's time to get a job that doesn't involve working for your neighbor's company in his garage. Usually you'll have a mentor or some "lead" who can help you with questions. Usually you'll be provided resources such as books etc. Usually you'd have more formal documentation.

Sounds alot like my world, and I'm hardly working out of my neighbors garage. If you just want to be hand-held, and do assembly-line type of work, this is fine. But to get your foot in the door on doing really creative & innovative work you need to be able to learn on your own & on the fly. Think of university as part of that sorting process.

As my M.S. advisor used to say ... college isn't about teaching you facts, it's about learning how to learn, and learning how to think.

The sink or swim mentality is the exact reason why terms like "cowboy programmer" exist, and by the way that's a BAD thing to be labelled, not a good thing. Programming classes should foster working in a team environment with structured design phases, requirements documents, etc. They shouldn't be teaching you how to read documentation beyond the first couple of classes. If a university is still teaching you how to read documentation in the late stages of a degree, you're going to be sorely disappointed at how little you actually learned.

Actually, I would argue that a computer science curriculum (if that's what this is) shouldn't really do more then teach you an introduction to a language sufficient for you to boot-strap yourself into enough knowledge to test & demonstrate the abstract concepts that they will be teaching. As for the team environment stuff ... shrug ... different places are going to do it differently anyway. I'd prefer to leave that for OJT.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: SampSon
cchen and descartes are two of the most elitest assholes I've seen on here to date.

I'll stick up for Descartes here, because in my experience he is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful programmers on this forum. Just because he takes issue with the study / work habits of programming students doesn't make him an "elitest asshole."

Back to the original post, in my experience most advanced-level computer science courses rely on self-sufficiency when it comes to completing assignments. Lower level programming courses teach specific syntax and functions, but that type of teaching is difficult to apply to more advanced curricula. Yes, you are in class to learn, but part of that "learning process" is preparing you to use your skills in real-world situations, especially when it comes to applied branches of computer science.

I was amazed that during my four years at University of Maryland, only one software engineering course was offered. This course actually explained how the real development process works, where the biggest issue is not how to find documentation for an obscure Windows API method, but how to communicate and collaborate with both your team members and your customer. It was one of the best courses I took, and, like most of my upper level CS courses, we were given very little instruction on specific syntax and functions.

All that being said, I am still confused about how shell scripting fits into "Advanced Programming Techniques."

 

[wyvrn]

Oh dude, I had a killer C++ class last semester. I am an MIS student also. My only previous programming experience was beginning Java. Anway, the prof took what the university deems as two sections of C++, and crammed it into one. 1200 pages (20 chapters) of C++ lovin' baby, along with problems from each chapter, and numerous programming projects. About 70% of the students quit mid-semester. I think it would have been a challenge even for an experienced CS student. But I stuck with it and got a B. Didn't internalize much and didn't retain much of it either. I tried to tell the prof this was going to happen, but she was one of those brilliant people who can do but not teach very well.

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

Originally posted by: Ornery

How much does it cost to just "test out" of that BS? Might as well go that route, if it's even 20% cheaper!

I don't follow?

Credit By Examination

He could just teach himself the damn course, since he has to anyway, then take the test. If he passes, and gives them a buttload of money (but not as much as he's currently paying for the privilege of occupying a seat), they give him credit for the course.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Ornery

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

Originally posted by: Ornery

How much does it cost to just "test out" of that BS? Might as well go that route, if it's even 20% cheaper!

I don't follow?

Credit By Examination

He could just teach himself the damn course, since he has to anyway, then take the test. If he passes, and gives them a buttload of money (but not as much as he's currently paying for the privilege of occupying a seat), they give him credit for the course.

heh...didn't know that existed.

You can't do that at my University. I don't think you can do that in Engineering dept anyway due to the labs and projects.

The thing with Uni is it all depends on the prof. You can have a really nice prof who will help you learn or you can have a prof who just regurgitates stuff from the books and that's it.

 

I'll stick up for Descartes here, because in my experience he is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful programmers on this forum. Just because he takes issue with the study / work habits of programming students doesn't make him an "elitest asshole."

I'm not discounting his intelligence, just his attitude.

 

[Spencer278]

Unix documents suck for the most part. man pages are for the most part usless. When some one tells you to read the man page it is because they don't understand the program themself so they use that as their out.

Is this your first programming class? If so I can understand why your upset scripting langues and unix have basicly no regular syntax so there isno way to know what a piece of code does just by looking. Like how the hell would anyone know $@ prints out the command line arguments you where given. Combined with the fact that you need 37 commands and 3 scripts to do anything in UNIX more complicated then reading a file makes it a really bad introductory language.

 

[nd]

Originally posted by: Spencer278
Unix documents suck for the most part. man pages are for the most part usless. When some one tells you to read the man page it is because they don't understand the program themself so they use that as their out.

Is this your first programming class? If so I can understand why your upset scripting langues and unix have basicly no regular syntax so there isno way to know what a piece of code does just by looking. Like how the hell would anyone know $@ prints out the command line arguments you where given. Combined with the fact that you need 37 commands and 3 scripts to do anything in UNIX more complicated then reading a file makes it a really bad introductory language.

No offense intended, but based on your comments you are mostly likely UNIX ignorant.

If man pages are useless, why do I (after using UNIX for over 7 years) continue to refer to them when necessary? Because they have proven to be an invaluable resource to me.

Second, I've referred people to manpages several times and I do tend to understand the programs.

I'm not sure what you mean by UNIX "not having regular syntax". Your comment about needing 37 commands to do anything more complicated than reading a file is WAY off-base. Most of the scripts I've written tend to be small (< 20 lines, often less than 5). This is in fact precisely the power of UNIX, as accomplishing equivalent tasks in other OSes often takes a lot more work when it comes to scripting.