I bought a stick car...and never drove stick before :(

[fbrdphreak]

And ZV comes to the rescue 😀 Interesting, and contrary to everything I've heard.

I need to get me some more in-depth knowledge of how tranny's mechanically function

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: amdhunter
A friend of mine has a TSi. Great car until it got towed and the tow truck driver didnt realize it was an AWD car. I forgot what got damaged but my friend got rid of the car soon after.

Haha that kind of reminds me of when I first fixed my Talon. I started it up and my dad tinkered with it a little making sure the wheels were turning (the front was lifted off the ground). I just said, "Dad... that's an all-wheel drive car" as I pointed to the rear wheels that were sitting on the ground 😛.

But yeah, you'll end up doing some decent damage if you don't tow it with a flatbed as your rear wheels will be turning but the front wheels will not. This is of course unless you disconnect the rear wheels from the front (disconnecting the rear driveshaft, removing the transfer case, etc). I'm trying to think what would happen if you did that... I assume you'd probably kill the rear differential?

Oh and DSMs aren't that bad as long as you don't decide to take your crank for a walk 🙂.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: amdhunter
A friend of mine has a TSi. Great car until it got towed and the tow truck driver didnt realize it was an AWD car. I forgot what got damaged but my friend got rid of the car soon after.

Haha that kind of reminds me of when I first fixed my Talon. I started it up and my dad tinkered with it a little making sure the wheels were turning (the front was lifted off the ground). I just said, "Dad... that's an all-wheel drive car" as I pointed to the rear wheels that were sitting on the ground 😛.

But yeah, you'll end up doing some decent damage if you don't tow it with a flatbed as your rear wheels will be turning but the front wheels will not. This is of course unless you disconnect the rear wheels from the front (disconnecting the rear driveshaft, removing the transfer case, etc). I'm trying to think what would happen if you did that... I assume you'd probably kill the rear differential?

Oh and DSMs aren't that bad as long as you don't decide to take your crank for a walk 🙂

FTMFW!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
And ZV comes to the rescue 😀 Interesting, and contrary to everything I've heard.

I need to get me some more in-depth knowledge of how tranny's mechanically function

Well, technically it's true that holding the clutch pedal down will wear the throwout bearing. I don't dispute that at all. But it's worth remembering too that driving the car at all puts wear on the wheel bearings. Running the engine puts wear on the rod bearings. Shifting at all puts wear on the synchros. Etc, etc.

The simple truth though is that a properly installed and lubed throwout bearing should have no trouble lasting the life of the clutch in any street car. In things like Semi transmissions where the pressure plate has an immense clamping force to keep the clutch from slipping and where drivers can go 500,000 miles on a single clutch, then yes, you'll want to not sit at a light with the clutch pedal to the floor (as much for your own leg's comfort though as for the throwout bearing), but in a car it's just not likely to come up as an issue.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm

Look at where the throwout bearing is in that link. It's what puts pressure on the diaphragm spring and thereby pulls the pressure plate away from the clutch disc itself. It's not under load unless you're pressing the clutch pedal, so it really gets very minimal wear in the overall scheme.

What really kills a throwout bearing is mal-adjusted free-play in the clutch pedal, which can result in the pedal being effectively slightly depressed all the time, which will cause continuous pressure on the throwout bearing. Many owners don't notice mal-adjusted free-play and it's very often overlooked when a backyard mechanic replaces his or her own clutch. Just as the replacement of the throwout and pilot bearings is often overlooked.

ZV

 

[fbrdphreak]

Good info ZV, as always. Based on your statement, I figured it was one of those things that always gets wear & tear, but generally won't break except from defect or just as normal usage over high mileage. Good to know!

 

[Hyperlite]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
And ZV comes to the rescue 😀 Interesting, and contrary to everything I've heard.

I need to get me some more in-depth knowledge of how tranny's mechanically function

Well, technically it's true that holding the clutch pedal down will wear the throwout bearing. I don't dispute that at all. But it's worth remembering too that driving the car at all puts wear on the wheel bearings. Running the engine puts wear on the rod bearings. Shifting at all puts wear on the synchros. Etc, etc.

The simple truth though is that a properly installed and lubed throwout bearing should have no trouble lasting the life of the clutch in any street car. In things like Semi transmissions where the pressure plate has an immense clamping force to keep the clutch from slipping and where drivers can go 500,000 miles on a single clutch, then yes, you'll want to not sit at a light with the clutch pedal to the floor (as much for your own leg's comfort though as for the throwout bearing), but in a car it's just not likely to come up as an issue.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm

Look at where the throwout bearing is in that link. It's what puts pressure on the diaphragm spring and thereby pulls the pressure plate away from the clutch disc itself. It's not under load unless you're pressing the clutch pedal, so it really gets very minimal wear in the overall scheme.

What really kills a throwout bearing is mal-adjusted free-play in the clutch pedal, which can result in the pedal being effectively slightly depressed all the time, which will cause continuous pressure on the throwout bearing. Many owners don't notice mal-adjusted free-play and it's very often overlooked when a backyard mechanic replaces his or her own clutch. Just as the replacement of the throwout and pilot bearings is often overlooked.

ZV

great info! thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: Hyperlite

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
And ZV comes to the rescue 😀 Interesting, and contrary to everything I've heard.

I need to get me some more in-depth knowledge of how tranny's mechanically function

Well, technically it's true that holding the clutch pedal down will wear the throwout bearing. I don't dispute that at all. But it's worth remembering too that driving the car at all puts wear on the wheel bearings. Running the engine puts wear on the rod bearings. Shifting at all puts wear on the synchros. Etc, etc.

The simple truth though is that a properly installed and lubed throwout bearing should have no trouble lasting the life of the clutch in any street car. In things like Semi transmissions where the pressure plate has an immense clamping force to keep the clutch from slipping and where drivers can go 500,000 miles on a single clutch, then yes, you'll want to not sit at a light with the clutch pedal to the floor (as much for your own leg's comfort though as for the throwout bearing), but in a car it's just not likely to come up as an issue.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm

Look at where the throwout bearing is in that link. It's what puts pressure on the diaphragm spring and thereby pulls the pressure plate away from the clutch disc itself. It's not under load unless you're pressing the clutch pedal, so it really gets very minimal wear in the overall scheme.

What really kills a throwout bearing is mal-adjusted free-play in the clutch pedal, which can result in the pedal being effectively slightly depressed all the time, which will cause continuous pressure on the throwout bearing. Many owners don't notice mal-adjusted free-play and it's very often overlooked when a backyard mechanic replaces his or her own clutch. Just as the replacement of the throwout and pilot bearings is often overlooked.

ZV

great info! thanks. :thumbsup:

Seconded!

I am finally gonna put some miles on my car tomorrow. Gonna take it out for a nice long spin from the Bronx - Brooklyn, through traffic and then some. I'll report on how it goes.

I am still having trouble with stalling the car if I try to take off within a second. It's like I can't catch it right when trying to take off fast and the car shudders and stalls...arrgh. I seem doomed to taking off slowly every single time.

I can take off fine if I let the clutch out slowly, but if I gas up hard at all, it shudders then stalls, kind of like if I was trying to take off in 3rd.

 

[Excelsior]

If your clutch is anything like the one on my '99 Passat, it might be a tad more difficult to learn. It didn't take me too long to feel comfortable with mine. I was far worse whenever I drove with my dad but as soon as I drove it on my own, I was a-ok. Now it feels like second nature. I don't think about it at all...

But at my last job, one of our work trucks was a Toyota Tacoma with manual trans and boy was the clutch WAY more forgiving than the one in my Passat. Night and day....

 

[thomsbrain]

I knew a guy who went out and bought a new Passat as his first stick. He burnt out the clutch in 20,000 miles. Good luck.

Any chance that Civic was a Katrina refugee? Sure sounds like it was a POS. "German engineering" isn't exactly synonymous with quality, either, though.

 

[alimoalem]

i remember reading through the thread yesterday but i'm too lazy to finish reading the posts.

why don't you post a new video? one of a passenger inside the vehicle or maybe a multi cam type thing where you're recording your feet, shifter, and out the windshield. cause even though you say you drive fine now, you honestly look like you've been driving for only 2 days in the video (you go in reverse and then turn off...).

it's just easier to critique you, imo, if we know how you're driving instead of you saying "yea i do this, and this, but not sure on this." the driver's take on the driving experience is totally different than that of the passenger's.

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
I knew a guy who went out and bought a new Passat as his first stick. He burnt out the clutch in 20,000 miles. Good luck.

Any chance that Civic was a Katrina refugee? Sure sounds like it was a POS. "German engineering" isn't exactly synonymous with quality, either, though.

Ugh, so far I haven't felt anything that would cause my clutch to fail, such as grinding gears, or any clutch smell...so I am hoping I am ok.

I bought my Civic, brand new, and it only had 1 mile on it. When I got home from the dealer, it had only 6 miles. 🙂 A day later the SRS light came on, and it stood on for 9 months...

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: alimoalem
i remember reading through the thread yesterday but i'm too lazy to finish reading the posts.

why don't you post a new video? one of a passenger inside the vehicle or maybe a multi cam type thing where you're recording your feet, shifter, and out the windshield. cause even though you say you drive fine now, you honestly look like you've been driving for only 2 days in the video (you go in reverse and then turn off...).

it's just easier to critique you, imo, if we know how you're driving instead of you saying "yea i do this, and this, but not sure on this." the driver's take on the driving experience is totally different than that of the passenger's.

Yeah, I am dying to post a new video. It's just that me and my friends all work and really don't get time to play around until Sundays. 🙂

There is nothing more that I want to do than post more vids. I am grateful for every ounce of help I am getting.

 

[theeedude]

That's how I bought my car too. Drove it off the lot without driving stick before 😀
Slipping for 1 or 2 seconds when launching from stop in 1st is OK as long as you don't give much power while it's slipping, just enough to not stall.
Other shifts you shouldn't slip much, just make sure to take your foot off gas while you push in clutch so that engine revs drop to match on upshifts, and blip throttle while you put in clutch on downshifts. (Push in clutch, change gear, tap gas pedal, release clutch) The thing you want to avoid is engine revving slower than transmission input shaft, because it's a lot harder on engine when it's forced to speed up trough flywheel than it is when it is driving.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: senseamp
That's how I bought my car too. Drove it off the lot without driving stick before 😀
Slipping for 1 or 2 seconds when launching from stop in 1st is OK as long as you don't give much power while it's slipping, just enough to not stall.
Other shifts you shouldn't slip much, just make sure to take your foot off gas while you push in clutch so that engine revs drop to match on upshifts, and blip throttle while you put in clutch on downshifts. (Push in clutch, change gear, tap gas pedal, release clutch) The thing you want to avoid is engine revving slower than transmission input shaft, because it's a lot harder on engine when it's forced to speed up trough flywheel than it is when it is driving.

the thing is though since he is barely starting to learn we dont want him to try to first learn how to downshift in this advance way. let the man learn the non-revmatching way which is much easier so he can at least drive the car then move up to more advanced things

 

[Dudewithoutapet]

Originally posted by: amdhunter

Thanks for all the advice.

As for the Civic and Quality issues... The interior literally fell apart on me (ceiling fell off, airbags were exposed and numerous rattles everywhere. Also, motor mounts broke on me 2x and even though they kept fixing it, it was annoying. Also, my rear shock seemed to collapse slightly after any bumps.

I think you had a lemon. I was kinda like fbrdphreak (quality issues w/Civic...going to VW...doesn't add up). My friend owns a 99 Passat 1.8T and his car is always in the shop. I'm sure every maker has good and bad cars/year/etc. I am curious as to what you mean the things falling off of your car; how does the ceiling fall off? Did you buy the Civic 2nd hand, mabe the past owners did some improper modding. BTW, I don't mean to thread jack. I've found the info here to be quite useful myself as I have just bought a used manual Celica.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: amdhunter

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
You need to stab the throttle more. Revmatching for downshifts:

1) Clutch
2) Stab throttle - you will figure out the proper amount as you get used to it
3) Bring the clutch more slowly than usual
----->If you didn't raise the RPM's enough, the clutch will begin to grab and you bring it up slower - this will match the speed
----->If you matched properly, you can drop the clutch quickly and be in gear.
----->If you over-revved to match speed, just bring the clutch up at a steady pace and it will match speed without much drama.

So for instance: you're cruising in 5th at 60mph, at say 2500rpm. You want to downshift to 4th. Let's say 4th gear @ 60mph = 3500rpm. Clutch in, stab throttle to 3500rpm while shifting to 4th, clutch out. I say stab throttle because that's what you do: you don't put your foot down on the throttle and wait for the revs to get to the right speed. Technically that will work, but "stabbing" will let you be faster and smoother. You just have to get used to how your car responds to stabbing. Just come up a little slower than usual on the clutch to avoid jolting until you get used to how to rev match.

My wife's Accord needs more of a strong stab than my GTO to rev match. Both have electronic throttle control (i.e. drive by wire), but hers is just calibrated differently.

You'll get it - practice, practice, practice.

I swear I am going to print this...No one can exactly explain the downshifts to me, but you made it somewhat clear. I believe my car is of the drive-by-wire type, but I have to confirm. I've kinda been doing something similar to upshift, but have been downshifting "blindly" without care for RPM. I guess this is why the car jolts slower when I put it into a lower gear. (I guess I was thinking that revving higher would speed up the car...) 😕

Try think think about revmatching for downshifting like this - you're downshifting because you want to accelerate faster. Therefore, in order to downshift properly, you need to "charge" the engine up with power, before you let off the clutch and let loose.

The further you're downshifting to, the more you need to "charge" the engine up as you shift, because you'll be accelerating that much faster.

For example - Youre crusing at 50mph in 5th:

1) You just want a little extra oomph - charge it up a little bit, and drop it to 4th.

2) You feel the sudden urge to rocket past someone. You want maximum power, so you want to drop it to 2nd. 2nd is a very powerful gear, and 6th is very weak, so you hit the clutch, charge the engine up hard, and then blast off. Hell, once you're good, you can hit the clutch, floor it, and pop the clutch back without ever taking your foot off the floor - but I dont recommend that just yet. 😛

Don't try to do math in your head or anything. Just follow that general rule of thumb, and you'll get a feel for how much you need to "charge up" your engine to pull it off smoothly right. Lower gear = more power = more charge = more gas.

 

[BD2003]

And regarding the OP, here's my 2 cents:

1) I keep getting told that I shouldn't leave the clutch halfway. Fine, but how am I supposed to take off smoothly in 1st gear? I've been revving it up ~1200RPMs or so, and slowly releasing the clutch till I feel it, then going in and usually take off smoothly. It takes me ~1½ - 2 seconds to get the car moving completely. I've only been driving a few days, so I hope to improve on this. Is revving it at 1200RPMs with clutch halfway gonna kill the clutch? If so, how else would I take off?

1-2 seconds at 1200 RPM is fine. My clutch is like a light switch, mated to a torqueless 4 banger, so I usually launch at 2000ish RPM - any less and it lugs. You really have to WANT to ruin a clutch in order to do it. Generally, unless you're lugging (too little - the car is rumbling, bad for your engine) or your tires are screeching (too much - your tires and clutch are in pain), you're doing just fine. My car pretty much has two options - start off slowly or screech tires. Maybe your jetta has a more progressive clutch than mine...who knows. When I first got my manual, I was worried about doing the right thing and the wrong thing etc, and in general, if you're doing the "wrong thing", your car will tell you. If youre going along smoothly, no matter how slowly, dont worry about it!

2) How long should it take from clutch pedal down, to fully up when upshifting... I've been timing the shifts very fast and usually change the clutch within 1/2 second to the next gear up. For example, I depress clutch, then change gear, then quickly raise gear before the rpms drop off too much to avoid dropping speed. Many times, I can catch the gear perfectly and you don't even feel the shift! A friend told me that it was bad to release the clutch pedal so fast, and it should take about a second to shift.

First gear is the only gear you really need to be careful with, because not doing it properly is going to cause a stall. The rest of the gears, you can do it as fast as you like. Faster *might* be rougher - it depends how well the revs match, but since you're already moving, you're not going to stall. It all has to do with how fast the revs fall - just like downshifting, the more of a discrepancy there is with where the revs are vs. where theyre supposed to be, the more you're going to get jerked around. If you timed it perfectly, you could let go of the clutch as fast as possible and not feel the slightest jerk. And believe it or not, thats *better* for your clutch - you only wear your clutch when its not fully engaged - the quicker you can get it fully engaged, the less itll wear.

Unless of course, you're WAY off - for instance, shifting from 6th to 2nd at 50mph without revmatching at all - using the clutch fast in that case is quite bad, nevermind how bad itll be for your face when it gets slammed into the windshield. 😛

I personally get out of 1st slowly, and maybe I just have this zen attunement with my car, but every other gear is as fast as possible, and its perfectly smooth.

3) At a stop sign, or a lot of stop and go traffic, how much damage am I causing by keeping the clutch all the way depressed with brake on, rather than shifting into nuetral each time? I can't find a straight answer to this. I know I can kill the throwout bearing, but no one I know has ever run into that problem.

Youre not wearing the clutch either way. Its up to you. Unless its a super short stop light, or stop and go traffic thats more stop than go, I'll drop it into neutral.

4) This is what kills me the fvcking most. EVERYONE is telling me that I should EXPECT to kill my 1st clutch...this gets me angry and makes me regret getting a manual. Is it so hard to expect to NOT kill a clutch, even if you are a n00b driver? Seriously, am I really going to be doomed to killing my new car? I feel like I am driving fine, I haven't grinded once yet, and have never smelled clutch. This pisses me off when people say I am going to HAVE to change the clutch no matter what.

You won't kill your clutch unless you're doing a burnout at every launch, or popping the clutch so hard that you stall at every launch. - I didnt kill mine (and I bought it with 70k). Like I said before - if you're doing something wrong, your car will let you know. If you're driving smoothly, you're driving properly.

 

[railer]

and don't worry about rev matching when you downshift.

The fast and the furious crowd are all over that, but normal people can drive stick for their entire lives and never rev match.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: railer
and don't worry about rev matching when you downshift.

The fast and the furious crowd are all over that, but normal people can drive stick for their entire lives and never rev match.

And place unecessary wear and tear on their clutch and drive train. Not to mention it just isn't smooth. 😕 There is nothing more beautiful than a properly rev-matched shift be it up or down.

OP - you'll get the hang of it. Try to not have the music blaring so you can hear how the engine is reacting. Don't worry too much about rev-matching, that will come later.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: railer
and don't worry about rev matching when you downshift.

The fast and the furious crowd are all over that, but normal people can drive stick for their entire lives and never rev match.

And place unecessary wear and tear on their clutch and drive train. Not to mention it just isn't smooth. 😕 There is nothing more beautiful than a properly rev-matched shift be it up or down.

OP - you'll get the hang of it. Try to not have the music blaring so you can hear how the engine is reacting. Don't worry too much about rev-matching, that will come later.

Yea just let the OP laern hown to downshift regularly then he can learn to revmatch

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: zerocool84

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: railer
and don't worry about rev matching when you downshift.

The fast and the furious crowd are all over that, but normal people can drive stick for their entire lives and never rev match.

And place unecessary wear and tear on their clutch and drive train. Not to mention it just isn't smooth. 😕 There is nothing more beautiful than a properly rev-matched shift be it up or down.

OP - you'll get the hang of it. Try to not have the music blaring so you can hear how the engine is reacting. Don't worry too much about rev-matching, that will come later.

Yea just let the OP laern hown to downshift regularly then he can learn to revmatch

Downshifting regularly = rev matching. And it has nothing to do with fast and furious. The douchebag fast n' furious way to shift would be NOT to rev match. As spidey said, its about saving your clutch and driving smoothly.

Itll be a LOT easier for him to learn rev matching now then to have to break a bad habit later. Its not rocket science, its just giving an extra blip of gas proportional to the distance you're shifting. Is that really so hard?

Heel and toe downshifting - thats unnecessary. Rev matching is essential.

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: railer
and don't worry about rev matching when you downshift.

The fast and the furious crowd are all over that, but normal people can drive stick for their entire lives and never rev match.

And place unecessary wear and tear on their clutch and drive train. Not to mention it just isn't smooth. 😕 There is nothing more beautiful than a properly rev-matched shift be it up or down.

OP - you'll get the hang of it. Try to not have the music blaring so you can hear how the engine is reacting. Don't worry too much about rev-matching, that will come later.

You know, I've noticed that I never play the radio loud at all anymore since getting a stick. This is coming from someone who had 2x12" ported Alpine R's, connected to a Memphis 400w amp + 4 Alpine S's blaring through a 75x4w Soundstream amp. 🙂

I haven't gotten much practice over the weekend, and it only takes me 10 minutes to get to work everyday... I really want to take some vids of myself. 🙁

 

[ViviTheMage]

I wish I was there to show you how that clutch works..

In my jetta, though older ( 2001 1.8t ) it was the same when I test drove it, for the most part.

When you are at idle, try pushing down the clutch (depressed gas and brake) while having it in first gear, and see how long it takes for the car to engage...as you slowly let off the clutch. As you feel it moving , by just letting off the clutch, still no gas, you should give it slight gas and lift off fully in about a second. That is just how it works for me 😛. Generally the RPMs will be around 2300 when I did it in 1st.

If you take off fast enough (obviously without traffic ahead of you) it is much much easier. As you dont have to worry how slow the car infront of you is going.

I do not know much of the mechanics of the clutch, but I am trying to , to better my driving with it...reading howstuffworks, helped..but I feel there is more to it then that I guess haha.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Keep at it. You'll get the hang of it...best way to learn is to drive one everyday.

You can leave the clutch pedal in at a light and the car in gear. Honestly, when you replace the clutch you should probably replace the throw out bearing anyway.

The clutch pedal should be either fully out or fully depressed. The only time it should be at any point in between is when you are taking off from a light or in the process of changing gears. You should not rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving around and you should not leave the clutch pedal halfway out at the friction point or you will wear out your clutch prematurely.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
Generally the RPMs will be around 2300 when I did it in 1st.

Please tell me you're well past that point now... You should not need 2,300 RPM to take off from a stop. For the first couple weeks, sure, but not all the time.

ZV