The few places where vouchers exist, show improved performance for both private and public schools.
But at this point, I think it is pretty obvious the status quo is not working and trying something new is not a bad idea.
The few places where vouchers exist, show improved performance for both private and public schools.
But at this point, I think it is pretty obvious the status quo is not working and trying something new is not a bad idea.
I'm assuming you were being sarcastic, so I laughed
But....you know, you can throw all the money in the world at a problem and that won't fix the underlying causes.
If you were to pick up Harvard and drop it into D.C., I suspect you would not get substantially better results (or at least not the "Harvard" level you'd expect).
It's about culture.
Culture is part of the problem, no doubt. But that can also be fixed to some degree. Those that do give a damn about education have their kids stuck in a system where the culture is broke.
DC is doing something NOW. Rhee has really changed things for the better in DC. If she was black they would love her. But she has got rid of a lot of bad admins/teachers and has taken flack for that.
The real problem is she is good but the mayor is bad. And many think when the mayor loses his election she will be fired.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,830
- 3
- 0
What exactly does the money go to? There is probably 1 teacher per 30 students, making what, 50k a year? Upkeep for the buildings can't be that much....
her209
No Lifer
- Oct 11, 2000
- 56,352
- 11
- 0
Public schools have to pay for bus's (and Fuel), buildings and maintaince, take care of special kids that cost a LOT!!!, etc...
Regular class's and teachers are not the big cost when you zoom in.
Hacp
Lifer
- Jun 8, 2005
- 13,923
- 2
- 81
DC public schools have the highest per pupil spending, and the poorest result, in the nation, when compared to all other public school systems. For years they have been held up as kind of the poster child for the "funding doesn't matter" crowd. The truth is that DC public schools are an anomaly. They are the exception that is used to disprove the rule.
If you look at per pupil spending of the 50 states and compare it to the full range of school assessment measures - standardized testing scores, graduation rates, college metriculation, career success, etc. - there is a statistically significant correlation. It is, however, a very rough correlation, and there are some school systems that get better and worse bang for the buck. You can also cherry pick one or two data points in an attempt to disprove the rule. For example, SAT scores don't correlate much with spending, but other testing scores do. DC gets the worst bang for the buck of any school system in the U.S.
In California, our PPS in adjusted dollars was, if memory serves, 43rd in the country last year. And that is about where California schools rank overall in the U.S. In the 1970's, before Prop 13, when we had among the highest PPS, California schools were some of the best in the country.
The example of DC does show that there is a lot more to quality education than funding, however. There is no disputing that.
- wolf
If you look at per pupil spending of the 50 states and compare it to the full range of school assessment measures - standardized testing scores, graduation rates, college metriculation, career success, etc. - there is a statistically significant correlation. It is, however, a very rough correlation, and there are some school systems that get better and worse bang for the buck. You can also cherry pick one or two data points in an attempt to disprove the rule. For example, SAT scores don't correlate much with spending, but other testing scores do. DC gets the worst bang for the buck of any school system in the U.S.
In California, our PPS in adjusted dollars was, if memory serves, 43rd in the country last year. And that is about where California schools rank overall in the U.S. In the 1970's, before Prop 13, when we had among the highest PPS, California schools were some of the best in the country.
The example of DC does show that there is a lot more to quality education than funding, however. There is no disputing that.
- wolf
Ahh yea it is. Do you have any idea how much it cost to educate a special needs kid? Pay for fuel for large bus's? etc...? Let alone in DC stuff cost a LOT more than most other places. Heck even Congressmen/senators get places together as they cant; afford to rent a place by themself here.
25 kids in classroom at 28k a head, is 700k a year.
pay the teach 150k a year.
a bus to get those 25 kids to school(granted one bus could do 2 classroom) 150k.
another 100k for operations and maintenance of classroom
And there is still lots of money left over....
facepalm...
OK lets try again since you do not understand what AVERAGE is.
Average is take the FULL fund and divide by the student. That is how they got the average. That does not mean each studnet gets 28k, it means 28k TIMES all the students = the budget.
Now zoom out and you see a lot of that "28k" is spent on food, special needs kids(get a LOT more than 28k), teachers pay, bus's, fuel, etc...
oh I understand what average is. I also understand that special needs kids are not going greatly skew the final results.
But even workign with the averages we can come up wtih realistic operating costs. And it appears there is a crapload of waste.
Stop spending so fucking much money on the goddamned special education programs. Huge investment, jackshit return, and all the while fucking over the kids who can actually accomplish anything. Fuck that.
Tuition at Princeton was over $30k for me a year. My cousin goes to this school (http://www.hewittschool.org/) and tuition is over $30k ($34,950, yikes!!!), I believe, and that does not include room and board (which is not available). As someone else mentioned, it's better to compare private to public.
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Better yet ship them to India.
I'm serious, close down the school district and ship the kids to India, it is the only answer to this.
Hacp
Lifer
- Jun 8, 2005
- 13,923
- 2
- 81
That might not be a bad idea. If we ship the special kids to Inida, they can get quality care while we save a bunch of money.
Not sure if you are joking but PUBLIC schools have to accept EVERYBODY and if they can;t they have to foot the bill for someone else to do it.
Many school districts get sued for not spending enough on special needs kids when they already spend double or sometimes 4+ times what they spend on other students.
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,947
- 126
I'm gonna jump sides on this issue. I went to horrible public schools and I would say the unions in this situation are worthless. Creating a competitive workforce is way more important then some women with a ba milking the system and waiting for retirement.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
Not sure what relevance belize has to this. His numbers are wrong anyway. I ready yesterday national average on public school per head is about $12k or something like that. BTW I think that is OBSCENE, but let's at least get the numbers right.
Oh, is this really just DC, do they really drop 28k/head? haha
Oh, is this really just DC, do they really drop 28k/head? haha
I'm not joking. It's what my town's school system did, and I ended up leaving it for a private school, at my parents' expense, because the town was blowing so much money into special education. We had a member of the school board who was noted for saying she would never ever see money going to gifted and talented programs, and that we didn't spend enough on special education.
Thank you for the tidbit about the districts getting sued, I hadn't really considered that one into my thoughts. Although clearly, with people like that woman on the school board, lawsuits aren't necessary here.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
You're overlooking special education. How about a 6-1-1 class: 6 students, maximum, (or the district is sued) 1 teacher, 1 aide. Special education costs districts a fortune. And there are a lot of very outspoken advocates for special education.
I agree with them that their kids deserve the best education that they can get. Unfortunately, the expense is that the programs for the top kids, enrichment programs, etc., get cut to pay for the special education programs.
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