Nothing Against you and all, but what you are doing is viral marketing whether your getting paid for it or not. For all intents and purposes you are a viral spore.
Nothing Against you and all, but what you are doing is viral marketing whether your getting paid for it or not. For all intents and purposes you are a viral spore.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,765
- 614
- 126
We are fortunate because we have two competitive players that both make pretty nice products, despite what some people say.
However, the buyout of uli bothered me, because I had quickly grown to love their chipsets with innovative designs, low prices and excellent hard disk performance. It didn't surprise me nvidia stamped them out, they were doing everything nvidia's motherboard chipsets were doing for cheaper. Plus the move would allow them to cripple ati's motherboard production. Make no mistake, consumers were hurt by this move, not helped. I for one was never all that comfortable with nvidia selling graphics cards and (basically) the only choice for motherboards. Same as I'm not to comfortable with intel and intel chipsets. Seems like they have a little to much power with those moves. But nvidia was pretty good about working with competitors parts up until SLI at least.
But this DMCA thing is pretty infuriating, and I agree with your complaint. They already bought out and shut down the emerging competition. They threw their weight around instead of competing on price or features. And thats fine I guess, its the way business works. But this suing over the driver things sure looks like they're being petty, trying to steal the last remaining crumbs away. I suppose fisher is right, its the game. But its not like nvidia needed to do this to win the game.
Boycott? I don't know. But its definately another thing to think about when it comes time to press the buy button.
However, the buyout of uli bothered me, because I had quickly grown to love their chipsets with innovative designs, low prices and excellent hard disk performance. It didn't surprise me nvidia stamped them out, they were doing everything nvidia's motherboard chipsets were doing for cheaper. Plus the move would allow them to cripple ati's motherboard production. Make no mistake, consumers were hurt by this move, not helped. I for one was never all that comfortable with nvidia selling graphics cards and (basically) the only choice for motherboards. Same as I'm not to comfortable with intel and intel chipsets. Seems like they have a little to much power with those moves. But nvidia was pretty good about working with competitors parts up until SLI at least.
But this DMCA thing is pretty infuriating, and I agree with your complaint. They already bought out and shut down the emerging competition. They threw their weight around instead of competing on price or features. And thats fine I guess, its the way business works. But this suing over the driver things sure looks like they're being petty, trying to steal the last remaining crumbs away. I suppose fisher is right, its the game. But its not like nvidia needed to do this to win the game.
Boycott? I don't know. But its definately another thing to think about when it comes time to press the buy button.
Okay I have to say this why isn't someone talking about the reason for this thread. The whole "dmca" thing.
While I am not a fan of them using the DMCA (which I am not sure in this circumstance they really can) the fact is whether by by choice or because of unreliable testing (or the desire not to test) Nvidia has choosen to make SLI available to only users of their SLI chipsets. They do have a right to protect themselves from liability and protect their investment in their development and accomplishments. Whether or not it is a company that they purchased whos products this patch is made to run on.
While I am not a fan of them using the DMCA (which I am not sure in this circumstance they really can) the fact is whether by by choice or because of unreliable testing (or the desire not to test) Nvidia has choosen to make SLI available to only users of their SLI chipsets. They do have a right to protect themselves from liability and protect their investment in their development and accomplishments. Whether or not it is a company that they purchased whos products this patch is made to run on.
See while I can understand why people might have reservations about the particular form of viral marketing that Nvidia was involved in, I don't see how people can really be against this. It sucks that they are trying to make it harder for us to get software patch that eliminates the need for an SLI motherboard, and I am not quite sure how (or why since their are other options available) they are using the DMCA as their legal reasoning. But they are trying to protect an investment in research a investment in devlopment, and by their legal right protecting their returns on those investments and research.
This is one of the few legal arguments brought up big companies in a while that makes sense to me. Apple going after a blogger for his sources, Microsoft charging companies for systems without OSs. MPAA and RIAA closing shops that allow us to make the legal backup that we are according to the same DMCA that they use as a legal barrier in the first place. The company that is working up a battle chest to sue intel for developing a CPU that works at speeds greater then 120MHz. even the Blackberry case holds very little ground. But this one makes perfect sense.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,765
- 614
- 126
I don't really care about the viral marketing actually. I was actually sort of comforted to know that there was a logical reason for the blind faith people have in one product or another, to the point of demonizing their competitors. Greed I can understand. It beats stupidity. I don't particularly like the practice, but I think I'm smart enough to spot and ignore some one who is bias.
But I don't care for companies trying to force people to use its products one way or the other. If I wish to buy a brand new car and drive it with no oil in it, thats my decision. The company shouldn't have to warentee such a disaster, but if I own the car I should be able to do with it whatever I like.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31026 This puts a bad taste in my mouth. I like to buy parts and overclock them. I know the warentee is gone. Nvidia's own chipsets support features to allow me to run AMDs products in ways they weren't intended on the box. Is AMD suing nvidia, or asus or DFI for releasing bioses that can run their chips past rated speeds? Whats different about some one hacking nvidia's chipsets to make them do things they didn't originally support? Oh, thats right...that might hurt nvidias bottom line, instead of some one else's.
Nvidia doesn't have to support these drivers. Just like AMD doesn't have to warentee overclocked processors. No one is asking them too. No one is asking them to warentee a hack.
I maintain my position. Its petty. It may be business as usual. And I'm sure their within their rights to do so. Doesn't mean it kind of a pathetic waste of time, stabbing at the very people that buy their products. Just because other companies have done worse doesn't some how make this wonderful.
But I don't care for companies trying to force people to use its products one way or the other. If I wish to buy a brand new car and drive it with no oil in it, thats my decision. The company shouldn't have to warentee such a disaster, but if I own the car I should be able to do with it whatever I like.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31026 This puts a bad taste in my mouth. I like to buy parts and overclock them. I know the warentee is gone. Nvidia's own chipsets support features to allow me to run AMDs products in ways they weren't intended on the box. Is AMD suing nvidia, or asus or DFI for releasing bioses that can run their chips past rated speeds? Whats different about some one hacking nvidia's chipsets to make them do things they didn't originally support? Oh, thats right...that might hurt nvidias bottom line, instead of some one else's.
Nvidia doesn't have to support these drivers. Just like AMD doesn't have to warentee overclocked processors. No one is asking them too. No one is asking them to warentee a hack.
I maintain my position. Its petty. It may be business as usual. And I'm sure their within their rights to do so. Doesn't mean it kind of a pathetic waste of time, stabbing at the very people that buy their products. Just because other companies have done worse doesn't some how make this wonderful.
The problem I have with this is that, quite frankly, they are merely your claims backed with no sources at all confirming it whatsoever. In fact, I've never seen someone come out and admittedly say they were an AEG members working for nVidia (If Rollo has, please link to it).
In other words, I must assume you are going by the hype that was created, because let's face it, people love scandals. It's interesting, and it gets people listening. But at the end of the day, I want to see your sources confirming that whatever deal nVidia had with AEG, that is was "sneaky" and "downright wrong", as you claim. I have yet to see anywhere making these claims, which makes me ask, where are you getting your info from?
I have a completely open mind, and I don't bite. I am in no way stating that it's impossible nVidia began a sneaky campaign with AEG (first define sneaky, and then tell me one company that wouldn't consider such tactics if it meant higher revenues, profits, product acceptance in the market, etc.)
I just want to see the info you're going by to make these assumptions, that's all. Surely there has to be something. I highly doubt you would just go with the "conspiracy hype" that escalated from PR FUD.
I agree, I believe nVidia is outselling ATI as well, but the 4:1 ratio most likely doesn't represent the entire market, as you stated.
However, Akumgami still couldn't merely accept that fact that this 4:1 ratio was true, even if just at Newegg. In fact, he said:
"Proof? Or is this like most of your other claims that you can't produce anything to back up. AFAIK, this 4-1 thing is some guy's unsubstantiated claim and supposedly how much Newegg is selling on the top end 7900 cards and X1900's."
So I'd say he's pretty close-minded about all of this, unlike you and me. Because he alltogether dismisses any mention of a 4:1 ratio of nVidia outselling ATI, despite being reported by a reputable hardware site, Tech Report. In which case, I find fishy, because he has yet to prove the secret "Tech Report - nVidia conspiracy" where Tech Report has obscured product popularity in favor of nVidia ( Give me a break :roll: )
Haha, we've debated the morality(or lack thereof) of those tactics when the AEG story first hit.
I think most people agree that it happens but shouldn't be welcome on a forum such as this where people come for advice based on experience, not on who gets free hardware.
Ocing is one thing, and is a neccissary evil (not that I think so but they certainly do), think of the OC market as a tuner market. The onle reason both AMD have put in steps to blobk overclocking is to aviod remarkers from buying cheap and selling them as top of the line, its also why both the FX and EE CPUs have no locks on them a all. The is no market for 1000 dollar CPUs to be remarked.
This on the otherhand is on line with HP suing off brand ink providers. A faluire here doesn't paint the ink (or chipset) manufacture in a bad light but the printer (or video card) manufacturer. Nvidia states that and tries to stop people from using none support boards for SLI partially because it doesn't work, doesn't work all of the time, or haven't tested it (unlikely but hard to prove that they did even if they admitted they did). The fact is if it doesn't work when people think that it should (Ali I mean Uli chipset as an example) because of this patch, who gets blamed, Uli unlikely since they never said that it would, the patch manufacture, unlikely at least they tried something, Nvidia, of course.
This is a perfect example of this, they set the limitation and would in the mind of the public be responsible for the spending of hard earned cash on a parts that don't work together. Most people would see them as the sole reason for failure, and they have a right to protect them from it. So if it means through whatever legal means they have of protecting their corporate image they have the right legally and they have an obligation to their stock holders as well.
Side comment.
Nvidia Licenses techs from AMD to make a chipset that support their CPUs. Its their right to make those techs run as fast as possible. It is up to the Motherboard manufacturer to impliment in the bios any options for bus speeds and multipliers and latencies. Also in the world of CPUs the speeds and ratings on the box are the highest rated and supported speed for a CPU and therefore can be run at any speed bellow said speed without legal trouble and anything above eliminates support. GPUs are a little trickier but Nvidia doesn't warranty any chip and leaves the selling speed, ability to overclock, and warranty coverage to the OEMs they sell the chips to. Its also why Coolbits isn't shipped enabled, otherwise it would endanger thier clients ability to sell higher clocked cards at higher prices.
Nvidia had a close relationship with Newegg so it was probably easy for him to get a ratio out like that, but even then if you look at tigerdirect and their top ten video cards you see Nvidia dominating the list. You look at newegg getting shipments of 7900 products in every two days (of several different brands I have been keep an eye out waiting for prices to lower) and they are out the next day. A the end of last year it was almost 50/50 and part of that was the increase in integrated video (which side comment all Xfire boards also have while the 3 million SLI boards don't) from the time period intel stopped producing low end mobos. I think 1/3 is probably a better ratio but even then with more variety on the Nvidia front interms of suppliers and variations for even one of them to make it to the top10 would be an accomplishment but to have 8 is incredible.
Today is a little different probably because they are awaiting for yet another 7900 shipment but usually they have two GTXs and 3 GTs and I have only seen one or two 1900s on their and they are amost always below number 5. This I haven't been keeping a real close eye on since I don't dig for FUD, but is a pattern that I have seen devloping.
Again I don't know how accurate the 4-1 is and honestly I don't care but if you compare the reviews on newegg, the sell out speed, the different ammount of cards becoming in stock prior to the sellout, and theys top 10 seller lists, it doesn't print a very pretty picture for ATI. Along those same lines I noticed that this habit is actually been growing for some time. I started a thread on going over the Steam Survey awhile back and it has become apparent that ATI has been lagging behind Nvidia in highend and mid range sales as far back as the X800 with an almost 2-1 ratio. The 7800 X1800 series was worse with the 7-1 ratio (which is kind of unfair but thats what happens when your late to the game). The 7900 series was already half of the 1900 sales and the 1900 and the X1900 has been out three times longer.
The Dominance of the 9700-9800 wasn't enough for ATI and they need more momentum behind the equal performing, but feature lacking, X800 release. After drawing even in performance across most markets and ahead in the overall performance, Lack availability of the highend performers, no SLI, and no SM3.0 (smallest of reasons but still a reason) stole momentum from them. The X1800 release not only removed any forward progress but also set the back to the days of the 9700 and earlier where they were fast but not as desirable. The X1900 as done nothing to fix that, and right now the only thing that is going to is another refresh on the X1900 (X1950 hehe) or wait till january with the R600 (which needs to be much better to really make up ground).
Sorry for the mini story their. But and I digress. Even if the numbers aren't accurate, the writing is on the wall and alot of ATIs good work has gone un-noticed, while they themselves set themselves back. In time where R&D can't be more important any outselling by either company on the mid and highend high profit cards, the money used for R&D is bad. If I am right the R600 will need to be a really good foundation (or platform) that will need very little R&D to keep competitive (alot like AMD here with the Athlon) since at least 2 if not 3 gens afterwards will be built off of it.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,765
- 614
- 126
I don't see how this is the same. ULI/ALI was a competitor to nvidia with their cheaper sli chipset. So nvidia bought them out and then sli was "turned off" at the source by the removal of the patch. And I disagree on nvidia taking the fall, assuming one of the two motherboards that support this took off for some reason. If anyone's name got dirtied by poor performance/problems this, it would be ALI. Most people probably still see them as two entities, and it sounds like ULI chipsets are now going to be a thing of the past. (Buy them out, shut them down.) So what does nvidia care if the image is dirtied, they're already scheduled for termination anyway.
Nvidia's letter asking them to take down the patch cited "customer confusion" or some such nonsense. How many people that download this patch are going to be confused about what it does? And how many of those people that are confused, even know about the nvidia purchase of uli and would place blame on nvidia? The people downloading this patch know what they're doing
Its not simply a matter of putting an "SLI" sticker on a motherboard and making it work for counterfeiters. The processor binning was pretty much just that. Any supposed counterfeiters would have to some how trick their buyers into installing the patch, by fabricating a CD or something. And since its a chipset from a different manufactorer, as well as being a totally different motherboard design its not like you couldn't visually tell that its not an nvidia nforce4 sli motherboard.
Sorry you got lost in my topics. The guy said AMD should be sueing Nvidia for allowing overclocking, I was showing him that he was wrong and in turn was not comparable to the topic like you mentioned. The fact is the Uli patch was never official and was a leak.
My debate of Nvidias reasoning on the other was also seemingly missed from you. I didn't say anything about performance. I was tlking purely about perception during failure. In theory two Physical 16x PCIe slots that are at least 8x electronic are all that is needed to make SLI work. The fact is more goes on behind the scenes then that, and even when everything should be standard we have things like HDD compatibility where a certain HD manufacturers drives don't seem to work with a certain chipset. But I digress, since that is all you need, alot of people would be upset if they bought a cheap uli mobo, two 7600s and and this patch and it didn't work. I can see the thought proccess as well, won't wonder if the motherboard is at fault since it has the required slots, they won't blame the patch makers because they are doing us a service and it wouldn't be an issue if Nvidia didn't set a limit in their driver. Trust me the minute this unofficial patch failed to do its job and somebody wastes a couple hundred bucks the finger would be pointed right at Nvidia. Even if a few people think this way, it still damaging to their reputation and just like any kind of word of mouth type viral infection its just as easy to lose customers as it is to gain them.
Look at the thread in General Hardware where the OP is saying Dell is comitting Fruad. The more people talk about the more likely of finding someone who believes it completely, and each time that happens the story gets worse. Then people keep hearing it enough that they think that it is true and eventually changes their minds on the matter.
So again, is Nvidia going after a usefull tool? Yes. Is it neccissary? No. But do they have a legal obligation to do so? Yes, and with good reasoning.
Couple things on the ati vs nvidia sales figures.
1 - nVidia has the more clear model numbers. 6600 isnt as good asa 6800, and a 7900 is better than those, its a simple flowing, though the various GT, GTX, GS, can get some lost. ATI uses X1900XTX, which the 1900 being a smaller number than the 9800 pro, doesnt follow the bigger is better method that dominates the rest of the comp industry. The gigs for intel chips, the number ratings for amd chips, all follow a bigger is better path.
2 - the 7900 line from nvidia wont require most users to upgrade thier power supplies, the X1900 line very well might. A comp store around here has a warning disclaimer by the card display saying most machines dont have the power to run the card.
1 - nVidia has the more clear model numbers. 6600 isnt as good asa 6800, and a 7900 is better than those, its a simple flowing, though the various GT, GTX, GS, can get some lost. ATI uses X1900XTX, which the 1900 being a smaller number than the 9800 pro, doesnt follow the bigger is better method that dominates the rest of the comp industry. The gigs for intel chips, the number ratings for amd chips, all follow a bigger is better path.
2 - the 7900 line from nvidia wont require most users to upgrade thier power supplies, the X1900 line very well might. A comp store around here has a warning disclaimer by the card display saying most machines dont have the power to run the card.
I think it's a hopeless cause. If it's not Nvidia, it's ATI, or both. And then you won't have any GPUs to play games with.
Hell they should ask if their power line in the home support it as well. The combination of a space heater and my computer keeps blowing a breaker during the winter. The space heater was doing fine till I set up m computer after then any time I was Playing CS:S while the heater was on it would pop. That was with a single 7800GTX.
apoppin
Lifer
just break it up or set it on fire . . . now that is a *Statement*
you need to upgrade anyway
Oblivion changed my views on current games . . . it is worth an upgrade [130 hours into it and loving it . . . i did finish the Main Quest but deleted it to do *everything* else]
:thumbsup:
I should send you a bill for the countless hours I've spent un-screwing botched ATI driver updates. Not to mention having to turn off all hardware acceleration on my ATI integrated servers to keep them from BSOD'ing.
I say we boycott ATI until they hire somebody to help Dumb & Dumber in the software division.
Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with what Nvidia is doing. Somebody needs a life, and badly.
apoppin
Lifer
either that was YEARS ago or you didn't know what you were doing.
ATi's driver support is at least as good as nVidia's. . . . probably better [except for CCC]
Cool! The 7300 is $60 after rebate, I better get that because it's a higher number than 6800, at a fraction of the price!
Both manufacturers have an alphabet soup of models, with some suffixes on a higher numbered product underperforming a lower model number. (e.g., 6800XT vs 6600GT, 7600GS vs 6800GS, X1600 vs X800). You really have to do your research in either case or risk winding up with a budget level performer like the X1600Pro for $300. Anyone failing to research hardware before purchase deserves to be taken advantage of by marketing. That's how hardware makers make the big bucks, which subsidizes excellent hardware values for the rest of us.
Both cards will run just fine with a quality 350 watt PS. The number of people trying to run a high end rig on a vintage 230 watt power supply can't be that big. Of course a computer store will try to sell a PS as well as a card. The free-with-case '400 watt' power supplies with < 14 amps on the 12 volt rail are likely to crap out with EITHER of these cards, it's just the ATI may push the PS over right away vs. later.
But anyhoo, I agree with you re: ATI's higher noise, heat and power draw being a negative. Even if I don't think it's a buy another power supply if you run ATI issue.
If you reread the original link, you'll see that the whole thing was settled amicably. I just dont understand what you're crying about. Nividia is a company who's mission is to make money, like every company on the planet. They do it by making video gpus and cpu chipsets. If you want to use their SLi then you need a chipset that supports it. If some company releases a workaround, then Nvidia has every right to defend their business. Nvidia isnt the march of dimes. If some website released a patch to circumvent Windows activation do you think Microsoft would hold hands and sing kumbyah? Would you boycott MS products because of it? DMCA is just one way to enforce it. If the DMCA wasn't around, this site would have still received letters requesting the patch be pulled.
Unless you're a 12 year old kid, I can't believe anyone would be this naive.
Unless you're a 12 year old kid, I can't believe anyone would be this naive.
QFT
Thats what I am saying. Hell I think the DMCA was used only because it allowed them to go after that site while leaving other driver modifiers alone. Otherwise their would have some why mes and what about thems.
You are have just totally ignored a consumers right to fair use. Why should you have to use their chipset to use SLI? You've already paid for the gpu, and I don't recall signing a contract when I purchased it. They should not be able to tell you not to mod the drivers either, you have paid for thier use. There is a BIG difference between stealing software and modding drivers that you PAID for. This is a case of corporate greed at its finest, trying to take away the rights of a consumer using the DMCA.
Someone older than 12 should've be able to figure that out as well.
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