I am Antifa but what they did in Durham was wrong

[UNCjigga]

If a large group of people tomorrow rose up and said they wanted the lincoln memorial gone, I'd ask a few questions but I don't think I'd be marching in the streets or passing laws restricting their ability to get rid of the lincoln memorial. It's just a statue that represents an idea. You'd think to these people the idea is more important than the brick and mortar.

I totally get your sentiment, but at some point you get left with this:

 

[Sunburn74]

I'm not sure what monument or memorial that is but again if its something that offends at least 12% (and growing) of your population, is leading to riots and people being killed in the streets, is a perpetual topic of heated, red-faced, highly volatile discussion year after year then maybe... just maybe just put it up for sale in a private auction so it can be moved to someone's private collection and use the funds to put up something neutral in the public space like nice flowers or a bird fountain or something.

When it comes to ordering a pizza, if I hate anchovies and you love anchovies we can definitely fight to the death about whether anchovies should be on that pie. It can be done; one person can definitely verbally or physically bludgeon the other to get what he wants at the cost of his or her soul. Or we can just agree to go with a chicken pizza which there is strong mutual agreement is pretty good/safe/crowd pleasing choice. The flower garden or bird fountain is the equivalent of the chicken pizza.

I'm not saying that society needs to whitewash itself as a means to avoid all conflict. Some of what makes life great is in part the things that make us just a little uncomfortable as a learning experience. My position is more that let art and the media and literature and religion etc make us uncomfortable and create conflict. Governments however shouldn't be in the business of intentionally creating and sustaining conflict.

 

[woolfe9998]

Frankly, I could care less about antifa. They are pretty much thugs. If they commit any crimes, they should be prosecuted like anyone else. But they are not a major political force in this country. They just get enhanced visibility because of some public demonstrations and low level violence. Most importantly, they are not backed by the POTUS. Their opposition is. White supremacy is growing right now under Trump, and this growth will continue as long as he is in office.

 

[rommelrommel]

Fighting Nazis is a good cause, too bad antifa are idiots and fight nearly everyone else too. They get minimal credit for being right this once, certainly not outweighing the many times they've criminally went about suppressing free speech.

 

[pmv]

I'm not sure what monument or memorial that is but again if its something that offends at least 12% (and growing) of your population, is leading to riots and people being killed in the streets, is a perpetual topic of heated, red-faced, highly volatile discussion year after year then maybe... just maybe just put it up for sale in a private auction so it can be moved to someone's private collection and use the funds to put up something neutral in the public space like nice flowers or a bird fountain or something.

When it comes to ordering a pizza, if I hate anchovies and you love anchovies we can definitely fight to the death about whether anchovies should be on that pie. It can be done; one person can definitely verbally or physically bludgeon the other to get what he wants at the cost of his or her soul. Or we can just agree to go with a chicken pizza which there is strong mutual agreement is pretty good/safe/crowd pleasing choice. The flower garden or bird fountain is the equivalent of the chicken pizza.

I'm not saying that society needs to whitewash itself as a means to avoid all conflict. Some of what makes life great is in part the things that make us just a little uncomfortable as a learning experience. My position is more that let art and the media and literature and religion etc make us uncomfortable and create conflict. Governments however shouldn't be in the business of intentionally creating and sustaining conflict.

I'd guess those are those Buddhist statutes that the Taliban destroyed, though one could also point to all the ancient sites ISIS smashed up (or even the things the Red Guards destroyed or even Saudi Arabia's ongoing philistine vandalism to it's own heritage).

But I don't think any of those cases are the same thing, they weren't about recent history or iconography that had always been contentious, where the controversy around them was an ongoing living issue. Those cases were a consequence of contemporary politics that didn't really have anything much to do with the historical origins of the items involved. In contrast, this is a continuation of the political conflicts that led to the statues being put up in the first place.

Also your pizza-analogy is a bit odd. But I think I get what you mean (shared public-space should be as neutral as possible, even if that means being bland?).

 

[Bitek]

What I am sure of is that law enforcement and political leadership needs to responsibly step in before this turns into an all out war.

You can see it's brewing and had been escalating since the protests and punches at the Trump rallies in the primaries. Now blood has been spilled, so expect further escalations and revenge.

Unfortunately, the current DOJ cannot be trusted to enforce law and order fairly. If they don't shut this shit down fast, expect the ranks of the militants to grow.

 

[Humpy]

I absolutely love this!

Which one of you wore the blue shirt?

 

[pauldun170]

I can't believe in this day and age in America people are dying over statues.
I can't think of a single memorial in the entire united states that to me would be worth the level of debate, angst, and bloodshed that has been spent on this confederacy relic issue.
If a large group of people tomorrow rose up and said they wanted the lincoln memorial gone, I'd ask a few questions but I don't think I'd be marching in the streets or passing laws restricting their ability to get rid of the lincoln memorial. It's just a statue that represents an idea. You'd think to these people the idea is more important than the brick and mortar.

I can't like this post enough...

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Gotta love Antifa folks... fighting fascism... with fascism. Whudda thunk it?

That said, I'll never stand by a side that supports bringing down statutes. They are for historical purposes - and nothing more. The argument of "It should be in a museum" (which is often used for the confederate flag) is complete bullshit. There is nothing that says history has one location and it's a museum.

You don't see anyone going up to these statues and worshiping them for fighting for slavery. Those that choose to try and remove and ignore history in anyway just remind me of the famous quote:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Speaking of - How many of these ignorant twats are too stupid to realize that with all the "White supremacy" talk in regards to slavery support in the South - how many of these kids do you think glazed over in school the fact that plenty of blacks owned black slaves in the United States? Not even mentioning the blacks that initially sold them into slavery in the first place? Oh those are just little details that aren't important to their "White man" messaging, best to sweep that under the rug.

 

[UNCjigga]

I'm not sure what monument or memorial that is but again if its something that offends at least 12% (and growing) of your population, is leading to riots and people being killed in the streets, is a perpetual topic of heated, red-faced, highly volatile discussion year after year then maybe... just maybe just put it up for sale in a private auction so it can be moved to someone's private collection and use the funds to put up something neutral in the public space like nice flowers or a bird fountain or something.

For anyone who doesn't know/doesn't remember, the photo I posted depicts 1500 year-old statues of Buddha, nearly 200 feet tall, carved ever so delicately into sandstone cliffs in Afghanistan. They were blown up by the Taliban because they believed statues celebrating any faith other than Islam were "offensive", historical value be damned.

 

[Blackjack200]

Gotta love Antifa folks... fighting fascism... with fascism. Whudda thunk it?

That said, I'll never stand by a side that supports bringing down statutes. They are for historical purposes - and nothing more. The argument of "It should be in a museum" (which is often used for the confederate flag) is complete bullshit. There is nothing that says history has one location and it's a museum.

lol. Were you weeping when they took down the statue of Saddam Hussein?

They are monuments. constructed 60 years after the civil war. Someone pointed out on Twitter it's as if the Germans built statues of Hitler in 2004.

 

[pauldun170]

Crews removed Baltimore’s Confederate statues early Wednesday, days after the deadly unrest in Charlottesville instigated by white nationalists rallying to defend a downtown Confederate monument.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...5a3617c767b_story.html?utm_term=.9a658c04e3ce

 

[zinfamous]

Gotta love Antifa folks... fighting fascism... with fascism. Whudda thunk it?

That said, I'll never stand by a side that supports bringing down statutes. They are for historical purposes - and nothing more. The argument of "It should be in a museum" (which is often used for the confederate flag) is complete bullshit. There is nothing that says history has one location and it's a museum.

You don't see anyone going up to these statues and worshiping them for fighting for slavery. Those that choose to try and remove and ignore history in anyway just remind me of the famous quote:



Speaking of - How many of these ignorant twats are too stupid to realize that with all the "White supremacy" talk in regards to slavery support in the South - how many of these kids do you think glazed over in school the fact that plenty of blacks owned black slaves in the United States? Not even mentioning the blacks that initially sold them into slavery in the first place? Oh those are just little details that aren't important to their "White man" messaging, best to sweep that under the rug.

well, your post here kinda proves your criticism that you actually don't know anything about the history here. The history that these statues represent is Jim Crow and anti-Civil Rights. These statues were largely erected well after the civil war as a celebration of Jim Crowe "defeat of the free blacks" or much later, to protest the burgeoning Civil Rights movement in the 50s. Not all, but many of these statues exist expressly as a condemnation of the black race and an antagonistic support of their subjugation. Yes, white "christians" of the time approved of and built these statues.

...so, I'm not really sure what kind of history needs to be preserved here. I think maybe taking down a few of them and tossing them in a museum that shows them in the proper context ("these are explicitly monuments to hate"), but overall just tear them all down.

For this statue, which appears to be a memorial to the unnamed, general confederate soldier...I don't know enough about its specific context to comment. The subject, to me anyway, seems neutral and proper. An argument can be made about specific individuals that while they may have been "great leaders" at some point, went on to lead heinous lives (Forrest) or the realities of their lifestyle reject the historical myths (Lee); but I feel that a simple memorial to the ave. soldier is relatively benign. At least, it seems to me anyway. I was never subjugated or have to live my life daily expecting to be profiled in some way.

 

[Blackjack200]

I live in Durham...Not sure which group was responsible for Monday's rally but I'm pretty sure it was NOT the Indivisible group I belong to here (I got alerts for a flash vigil on Sunday but never got any alerts for the Monday evening protest from Indivisible.)

That said, I feel the exact same way you do. Perhaps the statue was erected in the 1920s during the height of Jim Crow and not after the war. Perhaps it sat on a pedestal with "Confederate States of America" and not "United States of America". But this statue commemorates "all who wore gray" for whatever reason they served. As Governor Cooper said, "there are better ways to take it down." But as I commented last night in another thread, it seems the state government is partly responsible for not allowing the civic process by which these residents could have voted to remove the statue.

Instead of clutching pearls about some stupid racist statue, why don't you worry a little bit more about the police state oppression that's playing out right now in regards to one of the statue pullers. Twitter thread by a fairly high profile criminal defense lawyer in Durham if you're curious.

https://twitter.org/greg_doucette/status/897653254103937029

Washing your hands of this absolutely righteous civil disobedience while your group calls itself "Indivisible" is fucking hilarious.

 

[Blackjack200]

For this statue, which appears to be a memorial to the unnamed, general confederate soldier...I don't know enough about its specific context to comment. The subject, to me anyway, seems neutral and proper. An argument can be made about specific individuals that while they may have been "great leaders" at some point, went on to lead heinous lives (Forrest) or the realities of their lifestyle reject the historical myths (Lee); but I feel that a simple memorial to the ave. soldier is relatively benign. At least, it seems to me anyway. I was never subjugated or have to live my life daily expecting to be profiled in some way.

Does Germany have any statues to the unnamed, general Wehrmacht soldier?

 

[zinfamous]

Does Germany have any statues to the unnamed, general Wehrmacht soldier?

seems they have them all over

I think it is more than fair to honor the dead, for whatever heinous cause they fought for, as it is entirely possible that not all of them fought explicitly for such causes. This is always true. Outside of the evils of war and the evils of why people fought, there is a great pain that nations face when taking stock in the millions of young people that were slaughtered. Honoring the dead can always be proper in the right context.

 

[ivwshane]

I'm not familiar with the antifa movement but when did being anti fascist become a bad thing? When did fascism in the US become a thing?

 

[zinfamous]

I'm not familiar with the antifa movement but when did being anti fascist become a bad thing? When did fascism in the US become a thing?

republicans.

 

[pauldun170]

I'm not familiar with the antifa movement but when did being anti fascist become a bad thing? When did fascism in the US become a thing?

2014
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5gkewk/afa-interview-nf-james-poulter-384

2017
http://www.chicagotribune.com/g00/n...ry.html?i10c.referrer=https://www.google.com/

"Many anarchists disagree with the idea of breaking a window. But it's a practical tactical disagreement, not a moral one," Grubacic said.

"Breaking windows is a way of showing that we are not going to just go into the good night," he said. "We are here and we are going to do everything we can to prevent the murders of millions of people. It's a sense of just showing and demonstrating that we are serious about opposition to wars and opposition to violence against human beings."

 

[Blackjack200]

seems they have them all over

You GIS "german monuments ww2", that's not an answer.

I think it is more than fair to honor the dead, for whatever heinous cause they fought for, as it is entirely possible that not all of them fought explicitly for such causes. This is always true. Outside of the evils of war and the evils of why people fought, there is a great pain that nations face when taking stock in the millions of young people that were slaughtered. Honoring the dead can always be proper in the right context.

No one is saying you can't honor the dead. Are activists trashing confederate cemeteries?

Here's the group that erected the statue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy

 

[pauldun170]

republicans.

All the Trump heads I know are pushing antifa and Black lives Matter as the cause of all the violence.
Interesting how they are bringing up Black Lives Matter. You can see the rage in their eyes as they talk about it.

 

[zinfamous]

You GIS "german monuments ww2", that's not an answer.

Why not? Some of those are statues of the "general, unnamed Wehrmacht soldier." Not all of them, but I think it can be done appropriately in context and yes--cemeteries might be the best context for such a thing, even beyond gravestones.

 

[Sunburn74]

Also your pizza-analogy is a bit odd. But I think I get what you mean (shared public-space should be as neutral as possible, even if that means being bland?).

Yes. I don't know why I chose pizza actually... Was very late at night and I may have been hungry but the point is the same. When you're dealing with groups of people, in general try and avoid polarizing issues. Anchovies on a pizza is polarizing. If you pick them you will make a few extremely happy and really incredibly upset a good number. You'll never ever see a school pta meeting where 10 pizzas are brought in, and all the kids crowd around only to see freaking anchovies on all of them. People would call you insane if you did that.

Which is why I don't understand why local governments don't just auction off these statues..it's a win win. People who really want them and find sentimental value in them can buy them and can display them in private collections. The city gets money and gets to avoid the inevitable conflict associated and you can replace them with a flower garden or something not as polarizing.

 

[UNCjigga]

Instead of clutching pearls about some stupid racist statue, why don't you worry a little bit more about the police state oppression that's playing out right now in regards to one of the statue pullers. Twitter thread by a fairly high profile criminal defense lawyer in Durham if you're curious.

https://twitter.org/greg_doucette/status/897653254103937029

Washing your hands of this absolutely righteous civil disobedience while your group calls itself "Indivisible" is fucking hilarious.

Not trying to wash my hands, but I feel like the "Antifa" label gets thrown around a LOT on this forum. Thanks for the link though, Doucette has a new follower. I am still learning how morally corrupt our criminal justice system really is.

 

[Blackjack200]

Not trying to wash my hands, but I feel like the "Antifa" label gets thrown around a LOT on this forum. Thanks for the link though, Doucette has a new follower. I am still learning how morally corrupt our criminal justice system really is.

Sure; sorry for my tone, I'm a little emotional over the last few days.