werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
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- Jun 12, 2001
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Thank you all for your input. A few things I want to add:
1) I guess saying "antifa" is not short-hand for "anti-fascist" but an ID pinned or acquired by a specific group of people. I am clearly anti-fascist because unlike Nazi (National Socialist Movement), fascism carries on with people, whom may know, in many insidious ways. Its the authoritarianism that people believe they can be comfortable with.
Example: I have a dear, wonderful relative who slipped into this when began to espouse the opinion that "well, if you have nothing to hide or haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about." The American idea is that you shouldn't have any worry to begin with. And who gets to decide what you have or have not done wrong or hiding something? The Italians, as a group, thought of Mussolini as a benevolent Fascist dictator because the "trains ran on time." With Fascism, you give up personal liberties to ensure you are "safe." We have a law in the US that was passed by Congress without really reading it because to vote against it would have seemed "un-American." So my relative believes it's okay to give up some things she believes she doesn't use anyway because the result is that terrorists do not live next door.
So I fight the inclination from others to slip into that police state, to urge others to realize the impact it would have on us. So, I guess since I'm neither Democrat or Republican and don't have any political motivation to be against either, I felt like saying, at least I'm not a fascist and I will fight against any attempt of it gaining traction, including brawling - but the latter only as a response to their use of force and not in a proactive way either. That just begets a circle of violence with no end.
2) The person responsible for putting the rope on the statue was booked with two felony counts and several other criminal acts. My liberal friends here say, oh they'll get that dismissed and even the person herself was in a press conference admitting she's proud of it and would do it again. But this is not Durham city police this is county and they've had and have problems with very poor relations with blacks and hispanics. No, they and the General Assembly want to make her pay dearly. She needs to realize this and soon. Her legal council needs to find as many ways as possible to knock out those felony charges since she's been filmed and admits to it on record. Felony in NC is really bad. An employer here doesn't really have to employ you even though you may be the best person to hire. And they really don't need an excuse to fire you either. Oh just another felon being a felon, they say.
3) In this day and age, we have so many advances in technology that are astounding. I've seen better and smarter crop yields not so much with better chemicals but with reams of data that tells the farmer which crops are doing well, how much water, sun and feed is needed for others. I'm a little disappointed that our biological advances are focused less on cures and more of treating symptoms. Yes, they do extend life and make people's lives better while they are alive.
But my point on this is we as human beings should be growing by leaps and bounds too. "Inalienable rights" was written 240 years ago and we are still having the discussion of "for whom"? Yes, it seems we can never escape greed, avarice and outright hatred. It's a shame because I've seen where people get together for a cause and make amazing things happen. But it seems to be happening less often than it needs to.
1) I guess saying "antifa" is not short-hand for "anti-fascist" but an ID pinned or acquired by a specific group of people. I am clearly anti-fascist because unlike Nazi (National Socialist Movement), fascism carries on with people, whom may know, in many insidious ways. Its the authoritarianism that people believe they can be comfortable with.
Example: I have a dear, wonderful relative who slipped into this when began to espouse the opinion that "well, if you have nothing to hide or haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about." The American idea is that you shouldn't have any worry to begin with. And who gets to decide what you have or have not done wrong or hiding something? The Italians, as a group, thought of Mussolini as a benevolent Fascist dictator because the "trains ran on time." With Fascism, you give up personal liberties to ensure you are "safe." We have a law in the US that was passed by Congress without really reading it because to vote against it would have seemed "un-American." So my relative believes it's okay to give up some things she believes she doesn't use anyway because the result is that terrorists do not live next door.
So I fight the inclination from others to slip into that police state, to urge others to realize the impact it would have on us. So, I guess since I'm neither Democrat or Republican and don't have any political motivation to be against either, I felt like saying, at least I'm not a fascist and I will fight against any attempt of it gaining traction, including brawling - but the latter only as a response to their use of force and not in a proactive way either. That just begets a circle of violence with no end.
2) The person responsible for putting the rope on the statue was booked with two felony counts and several other criminal acts. My liberal friends here say, oh they'll get that dismissed and even the person herself was in a press conference admitting she's proud of it and would do it again. But this is not Durham city police this is county and they've had and have problems with very poor relations with blacks and hispanics. No, they and the General Assembly want to make her pay dearly. She needs to realize this and soon. Her legal council needs to find as many ways as possible to knock out those felony charges since she's been filmed and admits to it on record. Felony in NC is really bad. An employer here doesn't really have to employ you even though you may be the best person to hire. And they really don't need an excuse to fire you either. Oh just another felon being a felon, they say.
3) In this day and age, we have so many advances in technology that are astounding. I've seen better and smarter crop yields not so much with better chemicals but with reams of data that tells the farmer which crops are doing well, how much water, sun and feed is needed for others. I'm a little disappointed that our biological advances are focused less on cures and more of treating symptoms. Yes, they do extend life and make people's lives better while they are alive.
But my point on this is we as human beings should be growing by leaps and bounds too. "Inalienable rights" was written 240 years ago and we are still having the discussion of "for whom"? Yes, it seems we can never escape greed, avarice and outright hatred. It's a shame because I've seen where people get together for a cause and make amazing things happen. But it seems to be happening less often than it needs to.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
I tend to agree with you. I completely agree with you in principle, but it seems to me that the legislature stopping the will of the people is a significant modifier here. Beyond that, we really need to move on from the Civil War. Having Civil War monuments and statues in the public square makes that difficult. And as someone said, for blacks these are like a daily slap in the face - these are commemorating people who died fighting for the right to keep people like you as chattel. Yes, it's sad that millions of Americans died, but no one who remembers them lives today. Why should we be looking at statues representing men who died in an evil cause just because (A) some of them were related to us and (B) a lot of them died at once? We need to move on. If we must have a public statue, let it be of a Union soldier (some Southerners fought for the Union after all) or of Lincoln.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
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Those are ancient Buddhist statues destroyed by ISIS. Maybe not quite the same thing since the Buddha didn't want to keep anyone as slaves, but on the contrary wanted everyone to be as self-actualized as possible. But his point is valid. However, these statues were erected fairly recently (in historic terms) and could be moved to more appropriate places. Personally, I'd have zero problem with these statues at battlefields or museums. Assuming they don't have plaques or inscriptions about how it would have been better if the South had won or that the Civil War was not primarily about slavery.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
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Evil is evil, and accepting military command to further evil IS evil. We should not have monuments to evil (or to nominally good men in service of evil) just because there are greater evils. Beyond that, when the "disagreements in national policy" are whether some people should be legally considered property, how is that not oppressing people? Saddam Hussein could in some ways claim more moral high ground than Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee.
Get your head out of your ass for just 5 minutes and realize that not everything that YOU disagree with is evil. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You know that guy George Washington that built the brick and mortar of this country and its policy? Fuck him, he's evil and owned slaves! How did he not know to get rid of them immediately?! Oh yeah, and all these other Presidents (many of which are some of the biggest names in historical significance): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves
You act as if you have any idea of what it was like to live during those times - or even know what was going on. The answer is you don't. You're like a prissy little teenage hippy twat that says "Llllike chaaaa' get with the times man. You can't be like... enslaving peoplezzz and using tape players. You gotta get with the times! This is the 21st century!"
For those that actually want to get their head out of their ass on this subject, perhaps learn a thing or two - I would honestly recommend TJ Kirk's take on it. In the end I agree with him that I truly don't care one way or the other by any significant amount, but if you think tearing down public property of past is some kind of symbolic and revolutionary gesture, you're just completely stupid. The rest of the world is rolling their eyes and laughing as you kick a statue of someone who is dead.
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theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
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Every day that a confederate statue is allowed to stand is a wrong.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/16/regime-change-in-charlottesville-215500
These are symbols of hate, built in the Jim Crow era to intimidate minorities and allowed to stand for far too long. But times, they are changing.
Now it's up to politicians to decide, do they want them to come down in orderly and semi-dignified fashion, or be "lynched" like statues of Lenin and Saddam were.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/16/regime-change-in-charlottesville-215500
These are symbols of hate, built in the Jim Crow era to intimidate minorities and allowed to stand for far too long. But times, they are changing.
Now it's up to politicians to decide, do they want them to come down in orderly and semi-dignified fashion, or be "lynched" like statues of Lenin and Saddam were.
ivwshane
Lifer
- May 15, 2000
- 33,559
- 17,086
- 136
Lol! Do you know why our founding fathers who were slave owners aren't condemned the same way as confederate generals are? Because one set of people thought that owning slaves was worthy of not only removing themselves from this great country but that it was worth killing fellow Americans over it. They are traitors to this country at the very least and no monument should ever be erected to memorialize traitors.
Now I know an unamerican piece of shit like you would like to keep such monuments but that's because they are a monument symbolizing your hate for your fellow man and your hate for this country. What else could it be? Its certainly not a recognition of history as their inscriptions bastardize history.
Btw, why is it that you righties always have to refer to YouTube videos to express yourself? Are you too stupid to be able to use your own words?
You should take your own advice.
Oh wow, you can use one of the most oft used to the point of being meaningless phrases to discuss moral relativity between assholes. Guess what, history is chock full of fucking terrible people, and progress is made when we support progressively less and less terrible people over time. Things are no different now. Absolutely our leaders have never been perfect. That we deluded ourselves into pretending they ever were would appall them and they'd be the first to ask WTF we're thinking by propping them up into the idols that we do today. It is possible to accept that our prosperity was built on heinous things and work to be better than they were. Average Americans don't even understand that we won the revolutionary war because we were just a proxy for the French to fuck the British. Plus it was a gay Prussian guy who is most responsible for whipping our shit military into actual shape worthy of defeating the British. Before his arrival they were literally too stupid to realize to setup camp in an orderly fashion and not shit just wherever including near where they kept food.
Oh yes I'm sure you traveled back in time, that's why you're copping your "dude bra, you don't even fucking know!" bullshit condescension.
You're claiming people are rolling their eyes. I've listened to people from around the world. They are not rolling their eyes. They are looking at us and going "WTF we're witnessing the rise of the fascists and literal Nazis again, what the hell is wrong with America?!?!" You should be rolling your eyes at anyone that doesn't see clearly what the issue is with regards to these statues.
"Listen to me, I'm in my fucking twenties or thirties, I'm not a snot nosed punk teenager, I'm so much more mature you fucking prick! Now jam your head up this person's ass so you can agree with him and me and get your facts straight!" I'd say look in the mirror but you've planted your head so far up your own ass that you'd need an endoscope to look at your own face.
You can stick your fingers in your ears going "na-na-na not listening" and cover your eyes all you want. But guess what, its not about the fucking dead guy that the statue is of. It never fucking was. Its about keeping the idea of white supremacy alive and a part of our government because there are people that believe it should be the focus of our government. Literal fucking Nazis are rallying around this stuff. But yes, let's argue that just sitting back and rolling our eyes at the Nazis will take care of it. That worked so well last time. Just like us "letting live" with the South post Civil War worked out.
The fact that we haven't collectively as a nation went "WTF were we thinking? All that shit needs to go ASAP" is seriously fucked up.
Here in Arizona the government is falling over each other to say "not my problem". They're literally going "I had nothing to do with their creation so it shouldn't be my job to do anything about them". At best they're chickenshit fucking cowards unwilling to condemn them as the clear White Supremacist tools they are. At worst, well that's the the reason this shit matters at this time and it is stupid to dismiss it. We now have to seriously question our leaders if they are actually sympathetic to the (again) literal Nazis' and white supremacists' cause. Because some of them fucking are. And guess how we can know that? If they steadfastedly defend these fucking statues, because no one that isn't would be willing to defend them. Maybe the best thing would be if they'd auction off these things and put the money towards something actually for the public good. Personally I think they should be ground to ash after taking pictures to put in museums with explanations about what they really were about, and explaining that, yes, America fucks up, but we can make things right. The only placards that should be allowed are ones pointing out that these were heinous symbols of White Supremacist ideology and were removed explicitly for those reasons.
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BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,315
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Here's where I disagree with you. As ugly a time as it was in our country's history, it's STILL part of our history. Do we start tearing down statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson since they both had slaves?
No. It was "acceptable" at the time. Right or wrong, it was "the way it is" back then.
Statues of Confederate Civil War generals and soldiers isn't a slap in the face of American Blacks...except for those who look for any reason to be offended by "White Privilege." They are just as much a part of American history as statues of U.S. Grant, Abraham Lincoln, Dr. Martin Luther King, and all the other people who made this country what it is.
My opinion is keep the statues, move them to a National Park or cemetery, Don't destroy them. Erasing them from public view doesn't make that history go away. Destroying them makes us as bad as Al Queda or ISIS destroying the various statues and religious artifacts because they aren't in keeping with their religion.
boomerang
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2000
- 18,883
- 641
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Wise words that will fall on deaf ears. We are experiencing changes in the nation that will forever change it. For the worse, but too many weren't educated in a manner that allows for them to comprehend that. It's just going to have to play out and I believe that there will be statues erected honoring the heroes of that conflict when it's all over.
ivwshane
Lifer
- May 15, 2000
- 33,559
- 17,086
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Wow. That is some pretty stupid logic right there. Btw, can you tell me if al queda and Isis destroyed statutes because they were monuments to figures that suppressed or physically harmed Muslims in the past or did they destroy them because they believe no other religion should exist or whose history should exist after they were conquered (or a third option which is to sell the artifacts to fund their opporation)?
When boomerang agrees with you maybe its time to rethink your views.
I just can't agree. These statues are not thousand-year-old ancient relics, most aren't much more than a century old, they went up in the lifetime of my grandparents and parents and are part of an ongoing 'conversation' or, really, 'ongoing furious argument'. The greater number of them were put up at particular recent times when whites were feeling upset at black Americans gaining more rights (in the 1920s and the early 1960s). They went up in comparitively recent times as a political statement and I don't see there's any rule that says that statement has to stand unchallenged forever.
I presume you wouldn't say the same about political grafiiti or election posters?
When I was younger there was some graffitti protesting against the Vietnam war on a bridge, that had been there for decades out of sheer local government inertia.
Eventually it was removed and I remember thinking 'there goes an important historical monument'...but I didn't think it _seriously_.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
Because the far left has been murdering people in the US at the same rate as ISIS/Al Qaeda...oh wait that is actually the far right terrorists!
Facts will never be on your side, dingelberry
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
keep on strawing, dumbass. How about we call the Nazis that showed up in VA, chanting about the end of Jews and white supremacy, and the national Nazi party and National socialist party that they represent, Nazis? It's the exact topic of discussion, you fucking moron.
And you know you are being obtuse, because you have nothing else beyond defending actual, self-proclaimed Nazis. It doesn't make you as uncomfortable as you wish it would, because deep in your cold dark soul, you appear to agree with the Nazis. You certainly aren't making any effort to call them out.
boomerang
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2000
- 18,883
- 641
- 126
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!
Don't bother answering. Leftists assign one of two basic labels to people initially. You're either a victim or you're the aggressor. Antifa can be as violent as they wish and it will be excused by the left because their initial label was victim. I'd post the picture of Antifa activists storming the gates of Starbucks breaking windows and starting fires but it would most likely be deemed to not be relevant to the 'discussion'. Big brother is watching.
These are great times to be living. History unfolding in a huge way nearly every single day. Powerful people manipulating useful idiots to further their agendas. It's not the first time and undoubtedly won't be the last. Attempting to wipe out history through this methodology does not change history. It doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to understand that. How unfortunate that so many don't have even a minimal amount of sense. Leftists will never stop preaching their dogma that white men are bad and that the U.S. is a horrible nation conceived in evil. Their power is derived from exploiting those falsehoods. Tearing down statues and renaming parks and monument are useful to keep the mindless in a state of anger and agitation.
If you promote yourself as the savior there must be an evil aggressor. One can easily be created and has been.
Fun times. There will emerge a winner. We've got a ringside seat for the fight on the century. The price of admission being only a cell phone or a computer.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
- 126
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
solid. Boomerang will find some reason to reject the data, though.
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
- 111,866
- 31,364
- 146
OutHouse
Lifer
- Jun 5, 2000
- 36,410
- 616
- 126
J.Wilkins
Platinum Member
- Jun 5, 2017
- 2,681
- 640
- 91
It's a world wide organization known for it's violent methods and far left stance, mainly occupied by anarcho-communists who for some reason tend to be rich white and Asian kids. Over hear the EDL and other fascist groups are mainly poor working class/unemployed but even there they don't have all that much support.
So you're better off saying you are anti-fascist, which I would say the overwhelming majority of people are. At least sane people.
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