I am a college educated, big-city living, agnostic who voted for Bush.

[gil11542]

Union Pipefitter, 250,000pop city in mid America, I go to church on easter, Pro Choice, Voted for Bush Twice now.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

I'll Play:

College Educated
Married with 1 child (1 more on the way)
Live in Atlanta GA (not BIG city by any means, but its not small)
Agnostic (was raised Catholic...went to catholic grade and highschool)

Voted for Bush.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Age 34 (as of about a week ago)
Graduate degree - hold BA and JD
6-year active-duty military officer
Single, no kids
Live in city
Agnostic
Voted for Kerry

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: CPA
Anyone else like me out there?

Thought I would ask, because according to many posts today only uneducated (idiotic, to use the more prevelent term), rural dwelling, religious zealots vote for Bush.

Now, I don't deny that Republicans get many urban and religious votes, but there are plenty of us who don't fit that category.

No you're not alone, you're a WAS (no P) and there are many angry white men just like you!

 

[jtusa]

21
Grew up small towns, rural, and the occasional military base(airforce brat)
Now live in the city, KC. Not BIG city, but city(although I want back into rural as soon as I can).
College educated(B.S.)
Employed in a profession related to my degree.
Single, no kids
Voted Bush

 

[gopunk]

nobody's saying that such people don't exist... they are just making note of the fact that the west and the northeast were kerry, and the midwest and south were bush. wa, ca, ny, ma were all for kerry, which just about sums it up for me.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

 

[jtusa]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

Generally speaking, abortion is a copout for the irresponsible.
"I was too ignorant to have safe-sex so I'll just go ahead and kill the kid so I don't have to mess with it."

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Dacalo
Why the hell should the gov't be making decisions for the women? It's none of gov't's business. If you believe that abortion is not ethical then don't abort yourself. Don't try to legislate your belief and force it onto others.

Why the hell should the gov't be making decisions for the women? It's none of gov't's business. If you believe killing children is not ethical then don't kill your children. Don't try to legislate your belief and force it onto others.

Let's not turn this into an abortion debate. There are plenty of other threads for that. I just wanted to point out that the issue is not and never has been whether people have the right to legislate their religious/moral beliefs. The real issue is whether or not a fetus at varying ages of gestation should be considered a person and thus afforded the right to not be killed for convenience.

Like I said, there are plenty of abortion debate threads to discuss this and I won't reply to any more here. It just bother's me when people try to argue a point by completely misrepresenting what the issue is and refusing to address the real question.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

I happen to agree with you as far as abortion goes. Still doesn't mean that the parents aren't irresponsible.

 

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

Adoption.

There are very few reasons why I would support abortion...1 being rape/incest, 2 being life threatening. Close your legs if you don't want a kid, or face the music of the choices you make. Adoption is a decent choice...at least the child has a chance.

Of course, those are just my personal beliefs. I'm not about to force them on someone else...try to convince, yes. Force by will of law? No. I suppose that seperates me somewhat from some other conservatives.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

Personally, I am pro-life but this is one of those issues the federal government needs to remain silent on. Overturn Roe v. Wade on the federal level and let local and state governments deal with the issue as their local electorate sees fit.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

ok, I lied and I will reply just once more.

I heard that raising disabled children is a hardship. I heard that taking care of elderly parents is a hardship. I heard that raising kids when you've lost your job and become poor is a hardship.
Let's just kill the kids in all of those circumstances. After all, we wouldn't want to endure any hardships in life.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

This just baffles me...First of all, I wasn't blathering...I happen to be quite moderate about abortion (incest, rape, health of the mother are areas where I think its plausible). But when it comes down solely to some teenager not putting on a condom, or using birth control using abortion because they were IRRESPONSIBLE is where I draw the line.

When my wife was pregnant the first time, and we went in for our 8 week checkup...my life changed forever. I was looking at something that didn't resemble a person, it didnt resemble anything...except maybe a little peanut. But I would have gone to ANY length to make sure it would/could be born, it might not have been viable at 8 weeks, or even 20...but I would do what I could to see it through...and you know what happened...My DAUGHTER was born 8 months later...it may not be a "person" in the first trimester, but it was sure as s h i t what WOULD become one a little while down the road.

EDIT : Grammar

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: DT4K

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

ok, I lied and I will reply just once more.

I heard that raising disabled children is a hardship. I heard that taking care of elderly parents is a hardship. I heard that raising kids when you've lost your job and become poor is a hardship.
Let's just kill the kids in all of those circumstances. After all, we wouldn't want to endure any hardships in life.

you're ignoring hte fact that many don't consider fetuses to be "kids".

 

[jtusa]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: DT4K

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

ok, I lied and I will reply just once more.

I heard that raising disabled children is a hardship. I heard that taking care of elderly parents is a hardship. I heard that raising kids when you've lost your job and become poor is a hardship.
Let's just kill the kids in all of those circumstances. After all, we wouldn't want to endure any hardships in life.

you're ignoring hte fact that many don't consider fetuses to be "kids".

Which is what people who have abortions tell themselves to feel less guilty. Kind of like war. They say soldiers subconciously dehumaize the enemy so it's easier for them to kill.

 

[gopunk]

I heard that raising disabled children is a hardship. I heard that taking care of elderly parents is a hardship. I heard that raising kids when you've lost your job and become poor is a hardship.
Let's just kill the kids in all of those circumstances. After all, we wouldn't want to endure any hardships in life.

you're ignoring hte fact that many don't consider fetuses to be "kids".

Which is what people who have abortions tell themselves to feel less guilty. Kind of like war. They say soldiers subconciously dehumaize the enemy so it's easier for them to kill.

do you have proof of this? or were you just stating your guess as fact? isn't it possible that some people genuinely have beliefs regarding when cells can be considered "human" that differ from yours?

and i can turn your analogy around, you're just cheapening the beliefs of pro-lifers so you don't feel so bad about trying to impose your arbitrary beliefs on them.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: DT4K

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

My problem with the anti-abortion crowd is that their concern with precious human life appears to begin and end at the foot of the OB/GYN's exam table.

I don't understand this analogy...what exactly did the baby do that would even put them in a situation that calls for ending its life? There is a big difference to me between someone being irresponsible and getting pregnant, and someone killing another person out of free will.

Blathering on and on about how "precious" unborn children are and going to any lengths to make sure each and every one of them gets born and then simply denouncing their parents as "irresponsible" and
turning a blind eye to the need and hardships that "precious life" and it's family might endure is flat out wrong.

ok, I lied and I will reply just once more.

I heard that raising disabled children is a hardship. I heard that taking care of elderly parents is a hardship. I heard that raising kids when you've lost your job and become poor is a hardship.
Let's just kill the kids in all of those circumstances. After all, we wouldn't want to endure any hardships in life.

you're ignoring hte fact that many don't consider fetuses to be "kids".

No, I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm simply pointing out another faulty argument that doesn't address the real issue. I gave examples of behavior that would be completely unacceptable to the vast majority of americans but would be totally justifiable if you used the exact same logic that geekbabe is using. Whether or not having a baby is a "hardship" should have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether abortion should be legal or not or whether it is right or wrong.

In fact, my statement clearly shows what the real issue is. That is the difference between a fetus and a person and at what point should it have the right not to be killed. Either way, at least be honest in your opinion. If you think abortion is ok, then just say that rather than taking this opinion that it's bad but you should be able to do it anyway if it makes your life easier.

 

[jtusa]

Originally posted by: gopunk

I heard that raising disabled children is a hardship. I heard that taking care of elderly parents is a hardship. I heard that raising kids when you've lost your job and become poor is a hardship.
Let's just kill the kids in all of those circumstances. After all, we wouldn't want to endure any hardships in life.

you're ignoring hte fact that many don't consider fetuses to be "kids".

Which is what people who have abortions tell themselves to feel less guilty. Kind of like war. They say soldiers subconciously dehumaize the enemy so it's easier for them to kill.

do you have proof of this? or were you just stating your guess as fact? isn't it possible that some people genuinely have beliefs regarding when cells can be considered "human" that differ from yours?

and i can turn your analogy around, you're just cheapening the beliefs of pro-lifers so you don't feel so bad about trying to impose your arbitrary beliefs on them.

Tell you what, how about you go do some research and find out when a fetus developes it's unique DNA code and then come back.

The only reason I care about abortion is because it's in regards to another human life.

It's not a kid if they want to abort it, yet in some states if you murder a pregnant woman you're charged with two counts of murder? Explain that logic to me.

 

[gopunk]

Tell you what, how about you go do some research and find out when a fetus developes it's unique DNA code and then come back.

tell you what, you go do some research and find out why having unique dna code makes a bunch of cells a human

The only reason I care about abortion is because it's in regards to another human life.

in your opinion

It's not a kid if they want to abort it, yet in some states if you murder a pregnant woman you're charged with two counts of murder? Explain that logic to me.

just off the top of my head, two possible explanations:

a.) murder of a pregnant woman is considered heinous, charging with two counts of murder is a shortcut way of getting a stronger punishment for what is considered to be a stronger crime

b.) the people who charge them with two counts of murder are not the same people that are opposed to banning abortion

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom

Could you tell us why you voted for Bush (as an educated, atheist/agnostic person)?

I generally agree with the war on Iraq. I agree with his stance on Kyoto. I am a very fiscal republican that truly believes in lowering taxes, if not completely redoing the tax system. I want privatization of SS. I would rather have Bush decide the next Supreme Court judges than Kerry. I want the UN involved in our policies as little as possible. While the environment is important, I believe that the Constitutionial right to property trumps environmental rights.

1.) This Iraq war was based on false information and now we are stuck nation building quagmire. A real conservative get's in and get's his man and leaves. Our war is with Al Qaida and we are not and should not be the global cop. Once we pull out you can expect the few puppets in Iraq that we have setup to leave and exit stage right as the pro-Iranian crowd starts it's move toward grabbing power in Iraq. So in the end we did nothing to make the world a better place. Instead we replaced a secular dictator and allowed the forces of religious extremist to gain a foot hold in a nation in which they previously had very little access too.

2.) A true fiscal conservative knows that Bush is about as conservative when it comes to the budget as Clinton was if not worse ! The size and scope of government has increased more so under Bush then under Clinton. Government spending is through the roof and cutting taxes while fighting a billion dollar a month war and spending like a drunken sailor is not the sign of a fiscal conservative. One day the bill is going to come in and someone is going to have to pay for it. Frankly the GOP needed a dem in the whitehouse to wake them up from the spending day dream they are caught in right now and to shock them back to their core fiscal values which they have abandoned in mass.

3.) A person who values freedom over security realizes that freedom itself brings with it security more so then giving your freedoms away to the federal goverment. If you believe in personal rights like property rights then I don't see how you would be happy with Bush's religious agenda for our nation. Religion has no place in government polices. The amount of regulation that will come about via the injection of his religious agenda into certain industries is no better then the injection of environmentalism and socialist agenda that the dem's bring with them.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Gopunk, I am not going to question your views, I will simply offer mine.

Contained in that "bunch of cells" is what the child will be, its already decided what color their eyes will be, their hair color, how tall they will be, etc. Alot of lifes mysteries are already decided in those "bunch of cells" to me.

EDIT: Trimmed it a bit

 

[gopunk]

No, I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm simply pointing out another faulty argument that doesn't address the real issue. I gave examples of behavior that would be completely unacceptable to the vast majority of americans but would be totally justifiable if you used the exact same logic that geekbabe is using. Whether or not having a baby is a "hardship" should have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether abortion should be legal or not or whether it is right or wrong.

actually, you are. or if not, then your analogies are not really applicable in so far as going to show that her argument was "faulty"... those examples are unacceptable precisely because human being is involved. you can't apply logic from one situation to one that is fundamentally different, which it would be, if a fetus was not considered to be a person.

Either way, at least be honest in your opinion. If you think abortion is ok, then just say that rather than taking this opinion that it's bad but you should be able to do it anyway if it makes your life easier.

what leads you to believe that one can think that it is bad but should still be allowable, and not be honest about it?

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog
Gopunk, I am not going to question your views, I will simply offer mine.

Contained in that "bunch of cells" is what the child will be, its already decided what color their eyes will be, their hair color, how tall they will be, etc. Alot of lifes mysteries are already decided in those "bunch of cells" to me.

EDIT: Trimmed it a bit

that's great, i respect your views... i'm not arguing in defense of abortion here, i'm just simply pointing out that some unwarranted assumptions have been made